41

Yesterday, I made a reasonable edit suggestion to improve an answer I had personally benefited from, in the hope that others would find it easier to understand should they face the same issue. To my surprise, my edit was rejected for both of the following reasons:

This edit defaces the post in order to promote a product or service, or is deliberately destructive.

And:

This edit does not make the post even a little bit easier to read, easier to find, more accurate or more accessible. Changes are either completely superfluous or actively harm readability.

Neither of which, in my opinion, applies to my suggested edit. What do you think of this? I'm now hesitant to resubmit it again and, to be honest, even submit further edit suggestions because I'm now rendered unsure of what an edit suggestion should actually be in order to be accepted.

25
  • 10
    The edit looks reasonable, maybe the comment improved answer expression can be a bit (A LOT!) more extensive on what you changed and it looks like you've invented text about the set method that wasn't in the post. Reviewers might go huh? on that if it appears out of nowhere.
    – rene
    Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 15:18
  • 2
    @rene I avoid too much detail in the comment as to not confuse the reviewer, regarding the set method text I added, it was to further help future readers in understanding how to fix the issue, which is the main goal of an answer. Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 15:36
  • 24
    That edit was fine and really should have been approved. I did so now.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 15:39
  • 9
    @AchrafAlmouloudi in that case you risk your suggested edits will get rejected, also in the future.
    – rene
    Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 15:42
  • 3
    Just be aware, the "spam or vandalism" rejection reason (the first one) is shown directly above "no improvement whatsoever" (the second one). It's likely that the first reviewer misclicked and meant to click "no improvement whatsoever", as your edit clearly did not have the intention of harm. Screenshot.
    – Picachieu
    Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 15:58
  • 7
    Just for the records: 2 should always be written as two. And the code formatting could have been improved. But other than that I see no reason to reject.
    – BDL
    Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 16:12
  • 3
    @rene I understand that and will try to do as you advised in my future edit suggestions. Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 16:42
  • 15
    @AchrafAlmouloudi: I also think your edit should have been approved, however, you should also have removed the closing: "Hope this helps someone else out there." This is just noise.
    – honk
    Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 16:52
  • 5
    @AchrafAlmouloudi: You are welcome! Thank you for listening to the Meta crowd ;) Regaring the "noise" topic, this Q&A is quite interesting.
    – honk
    Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 16:58
  • 8
    I personally dislike it when edits are rejected with the "superfluous" reason. To be clear there is a time and place for it, e.g., if it changes few words from American English to British English spelling (or vice versa) and that's it. But I've also seen it applied where it seems to be used as "the edit didn't change the answer enough to make it different" whereas improving grammar and re-writing a sentence here and there should be fine it it makes the answer even slightly easier to read. That's the point of an edit, after all - improving it. And this edit was a clear improvement.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 25, 2019 at 17:57
  • 4
    Also, a personal anecdote - there was an edit on my own post from some user and it was rejected by reviewers. The edit was to fix my grammar usage. Both reviewers said it was "superfluous" when what I had written was factually wrong, not just an alternative way of writing it. Since it was a minor edit (a couple of words), apparently they thought it's not enough of a change and hit it with "superfluous". Being the owner of the post, I was at least able to override their decision.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 25, 2019 at 18:07
  • 3
    I've seen more cases of this, where perfectly good edits get rejected. IMO, the problem is that the audits for this type of review are all negative -- if you reject all edits you will never be wrong in the audits. We should include some audits that need to be accepted to weed out this type of reviewer. Commented Mar 25, 2019 at 18:12
  • 3
    @סטנליגרונן This edit suggestion should have definitely been accepted, just adding the commands in a proper code block. Weirdly, the reviewer has chosen to "Reject and Edit" while "Accept and Edit" seems like a more appropriate option if they were so keen to remove the capitalization on "pro" that you added. Commented Mar 25, 2019 at 18:35
  • 3
    @AchrafAlmouloudi changing capitalisation is most likely OK. If people just never used capital letters or missed them at the start of each sentence or just missed them in a couple of places, I'd say that's good. it's an improvement of the post, after all. I know some reviewers disagree - I've seen rejections because an edit "only" changed stuff like using capital letters where they should be used. To me that's an improvement. I don't think there is any improvement small enough to not approve. An edit might be superfluous if it doesn't offer an improvement.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 25, 2019 at 18:41
  • 3
    @HowardP The vast majority of rejections use stock reasons. You can see what the selection of reject reasons looks like in the screenshot provided by Pikachu the Purple Wizard in their comment above. It's possible to use a type up a custom reason, but it's far easier for a reviewer to click on one of the stock reasons.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 18:20

3 Answers 3

55

Your edit was useful, provided a substantial improvement to the post, and therefore should have been approved. The reviewers' rejection reasons were wrong, and suggest that they were not paying close enough attention.

It has since been retroactively approved by another moderator, and both of the reviewers have been temporarily banned from reviewing with a link to this Meta post to show them why.

For your future reference, there are two things you should do to further refine how you suggest edits:

  1. Remove all additional "fluff" in posts when you are editing them, like the trailing "Hope this helps someone else out there." in this case.

  2. Write better edit summaries that explain the purpose of your edit. Your summary for this edit was "Improved answer expression.", which really doesn't make any sense.

17
  • 3
    Fair enough. I think reviewers should put more thought into their actions before making unreasonable edit rejections. Thanks for the heads up. Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 16:49
  • 24
    @AchrafAlmouloudi that's the point of the review bans. It should get their attention and hopefully they will learn from it.
    – user3956566
    Commented Mar 24, 2019 at 16:50
  • 11
    "Remove all additional fluff" (+1) Commented Mar 25, 2019 at 18:26
  • 3. Take care when inserting text like the text about set. If it is necessary, follow (2)
    – EMBarbosa
    Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 14:54
  • 8
    This is one example of suggested edit reviews slowly turning lower quality over time. The review queue system breaks when the queue is never empty and this happened in the past. So someone lowered the review bar from 3 out of 5 to 2 out of 3. In this case the OP had the bad luck of getting hit by 2 rookie reviewers (one got it right) and 1 experienced reviewer not paying attention, at once. Not much is needed to for an incorrect review. And since reviewing is dreadfully boring work, I don't blame experienced reviewers from occasionally falling asleep. Review ban seems a bit harsh.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 15:13
  • 2
    Somewhat ironically, the edit to this original answer was a substantial change to the original answer, and probably should have just been a separate answer. Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 16:03
  • 1
    @CodyPiersall meh, I was ok with Cody Gray making the edit. The mods talk and work as a team, so consider it from the both of us ;)
    – user3956566
    Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 17:32
  • 1
    Excellent response from Martijn and Yvette here! Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 18:32
  • @YvetteColomb I was under the impression "no improvement" actually meant "insufficient improvement", at least from previous meta posts. I certainly would have approved this, but I'm not sure a ban is justified in this case (NB: I'm not one of the reviewers). It's also certainly necessary to take into account whether the post should be bumped; in this case it's not terribly old, but I've seen minimal edits on seven-year-old posts that I've outright rejected.
    – jhpratt
    Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 23:29
  • @jhpratt "no improvement" means "no improvement". That 'post before edit' = 'post after the edit'. There was a bunch of discussion back in the day but this one is used for the specific case that Robert points out in the third paragraph meta.stackexchange.com/q/239106/213575 Shog said that any improvement, no matter how small, should be either approved or improved upon.
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 23:37
  • @CodyPiersall My edit was a substantial change, but it was in keeping with the author's intent. That's the expectation for edits. Now, granted, I cheated a bit, because I know Yvette pretty well, so I know what her intentions are. Still, major edits can be defensible as long as you are keeping within the original spirit and intent of an answer.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 23:39
  • @jhpratt The "too minor" rejection reason was removed a long time back. "No improvement whatsoever" means what it says. It doesn't mean "insufficient improvement". It means that the edit is completely pointless. An example would be fixing the grammar on spam. Another example would be formatting half of the code, but leaving the other half untouched. A third example would be a trivial edit that did not improve either the comprehensibility or locatability of a post. You would be within your rights to reject fixing a minor typo in a years-old post on this basis (although others may disagree).
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 23:43
  • 3
    Don't forget the "Improve" button, @jhpratt. Braiam has already called this out in an answer below. You have the power to make a partial edit into a complete edit. Say, they went through the drudgery of formatting the code, but forgot to remove "Thanks in advanced". I use "Improve Edit" a lot under those circumstances.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 23:51
  • 2
    @Cody "Now, granted, I cheated a bit, because I know Yvette pretty well, so I know what her intentions are." Tangential-but-related observation for no particular reason: for what it's worth, sometimes we can do that "in the wild" too when we know a fellow contributor's contributory style well enough. Although I suppose that's hard to judge! If I'm unsure I'll usually be especially ambivalent in the edit summary or at least leave a comment inviting a quick, undramatic rollback in the event of disagreement. I imagine this being rare in the case of the review queue though! Commented Mar 27, 2019 at 11:30
  • 1
    For what it's worth, a partial dissent: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/382031/1709587
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Mar 30, 2019 at 18:39
7

This is an excellent case for peddling the use of "Improve edit". If you believe that the editor missed something, you can improve the edit. It would waste everyone's time rejecting the edit and waiting for an edit that ticks all the boxes, where you could instead do it yourself.

8
  • 6
    Also worth noting that it should be acceptable to approve an edit even if it doesn't address 100% of the things in the post. There is a big community here, so one person can, say, format the code and paragraphs, another can fix the grammar and spelling of the same post. For me, I can't tolerate messy formatting, so I go and edit code, usually and fix capital letters in sentences and stuff. However, sometimes a section of text just doesn't flow right and has to be rewritten but I rarely know the best way. Some others seem to be very proficient, so I'm fine leaving it to them.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 18:01
  • @VLAZ heck, sometimes I edit a post several times in quick succession.
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 26, 2019 at 18:01
  • 1
    @VLAZ That's great... for you, since you have > 2k. For people like the OP whose edits have to go through review, it's a waste of reviewer's time if the edit is not complete. Commented Mar 27, 2019 at 0:27
  • 1
    @HereticMonkey I strongly disagree. If the edit is incomplete, the reviewer(s) are still brought to a post that needs improvement, and still get the chance to Improve/Reject and Edit. That's a pretty valid use of reviewer's time.
    – Picachieu
    Commented Mar 27, 2019 at 0:34
  • 2
    @HereticMonkey I fully support partial improvements of posts when I review. If somebody fixed horrible formatting of code but doesn't fix a couple of spelling mistakes in the text is fine. I will approve it and can even fix the mistakes myself, if needed. The description of "Appvove" from the review is "edits that clearly improve the post" which is a different thing than "Edits that leave no room for other improvements". Increasing a post's quality from (some imagined scale here) 25% to 75% is a "clear improvement". Which fits the approve button. Are there guidelines to say otherwise?
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 27, 2019 at 5:06
  • 1
    @HereticMonkey also, if we're talking about "wasting reviewer's time" (like, really? Isn't the point that you have to spend the time ANYWAY?) then rejecting an edit that makes some improvements but not all of the possible improvements literally takes more time than approving it. Thus we can conclude that a reviewer who rejects any improvements is wasting their own time, in addition to possibly the time of others.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Mar 27, 2019 at 5:09
  • 1
    I still think that things would be much, much better if reviewers got pinged/notified when their edit was rejected/improved. How else should they learn unless they habitually review the results of their previous contributions? (Which seems unlikely sadly). Obvs the ban approach is great for particularly egregious cases though IME it takes a while for a "bad" reviewer to garner enough attention for that, and by then a lot of damage can have been done. Commented Mar 27, 2019 at 11:31
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit wait? If it's improved upon, what damage was done?
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 25, 2021 at 20:20
3

This post is a bit old now, but let me register a minor dissent. The edit contained a mixture of several good, neutral, and bad changes. Given that, I'd argue that rejecting it was defensible (even if, on balance, I think it should've been approved), and that the reviewer who rejected the edit with the "superfluous or actively harm readability" reason didn't deserve to be review-banned.

Good changes:

  • Capitalising the two uncapitalised sentences
  • Converting constructs specific to Indian English (specifically the use of "code"/"codes" as a countable noun rather than a mass noun) to the form that is correct in British/American English, which is more widely recognised
  • Converting some full stops at the end of paragraphs before code blocks to colons to make the connection clearer
  • Fixing the grammar in the first sentence of the final paragraph
  • Fleshing out the instruction in the final sentence
  • Pluralising "prefix" to "prefixes" in a context where two prefixes are being talked about

Neutral changes that do neither harm nor good:

  • Converting "Note" to "Notice"
  • Rearranging word order in the first sentence
  • Changing "I noted that" to "However"

Bad changes:

  • Changing "you ll get the same JShint error" to "it will throw the same JShint error" (since the code itself doesn't throw the error)
  • Changing "two" to "2". (Most English style guides recommend writing the numbers 0-9 as words in English prose, and only using numerals for negative or multi-digit numbers.)
  • Turning the entire final paragraph into a grammatically incorrect run-on sentence.

I'd personally say that the good solidly outweighs the bad and would choose to "Improve Edit" if I saw this in review, but I think a reasonable, conscientious reviewer who had carefully read the edit could disagree and take the view that none of the good changes improve the post sufficiently to justify approving an edit that introduces new errors into the answerer's writing. Rounding that perspective off to "Changes are either completely superfluous or actively harm readability." seems reasonable to me.

The reviewer who chose "This edit defaces the post in order to promote a product or service, or is deliberately destructive." as their rejection reason, on the other hand, doesn't have a leg to stand on and deserves their review ban.

2
  • I would agree that changing "you ll get the same JShint error" to "it will throw the same JShint error" was incorrect on my part (I temporarily missed distinguishing between a JShint error and a JavaScript engine error) and regarding me changing "two" to "2" it was because I genuinely was thinking that was the correct (better?) way, though I would rather classify it as a "neutral" change as it doesn't really harm readability or meaning. Commented Mar 30, 2019 at 21:32
  • However, I strongly disagree that the (temporary) ban isn't well deserved, if a reviewer can't be bothered to "Improve Edit" then it would have been wiser from them to skip reviewing this edit and let someone else (like yourself?) do it instead. Rejecting in this case actively harms Stack Overflow's collaborative community spirit, which is more important than anything else. Banning them (again, temporarily) is the correct way to stop them from doing further harm and giving them some time and tips to improve their edit review habits. Commented Mar 30, 2019 at 21:32

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .