183

I am concerned about how the code of conduct is being pointed out in practice. In its short time of existence (close to 2 months), I have seen multiple occurrences of comments claiming to report a violation of the code of conduct in response to downvotes, close votes, edits for clarity, and even comments with constructive criticism:

  • you should also read at least once the Code of Conduct before turning away new users from Stack Overflow. The question asked here is far from perfect but voting to close it (or even downvoting the question) is a fine way to turn away a newbie from "these arrogant ****** from SO"

  • I'm not asking anyone to do my work, I'm asking in spirit of what SO is supposed to be, a QA platform for people to share knowledge. [...] Implementation is not a step that has come yet. I just want to discuss the approach here (this is also not some open-ended question). Can you tell me how I'm violating the "How to Ask" policy that you just posted because I read it and I don't see it? It's kind of offensive when you come out and suggest that "I'm asking other people to do my work for me" [...], it paints the question in a negative light and spreads misinformation to other users. I also think it is a gross violation of the new code of conduct and misleading to people who may want to share knowledge [...]

  • What is the reason for downvoting my Question? Are you following the code of conduct?

These are only the ones I stumbled upon myself from regular activity. I built a SEDE query which looks for comments mentioning the code of conduct in some way, from the beginning of august to present time. At the time of writing, there are 77 results for case-insensitive "code of conduct" or (union) "stackoverflow.com/conduct" (searching for "CoC" triggered too many false positives to be useful). Out of these, I counted at least 14 comments which are clearly an accusation of the same kind, and we're only considering comments reachable from SEDE (it is likely that a fair number of these comments were permanently deleted by a moderator by now). Some more examples from this list:

  • To the downvoter: at least have the courage to make clear who you are and why you downvoted it. Or offer a better alternative. Have you missed the new Code of Conduct?

  • I wonder who voted to close this question as unclear. Btw no need to vote it down before asking for clarifications. OP is a new contributo Be nice, and check out Code of Conduct. stackoverflow.com/conduct

  • It seems the famous StackOverflow Code of Conduct does not stop people from downvoting questions they don't understand themselves.

  • Not sure why this was put on hold. [...] Making this a very valid question. I feel the question was closed by people who do not know [...]. Nor is the fact it was closed without further explanation/comments against the new code of conduct. OP only has 6 points to his name, a little courtesy would have been nice.

  • Downvoters and close-voters - stackoverflow.com/conduct . This is not a judgement zone for people making silly mistakes. I'll admit this was a very glaring oversight on my part. I thank @_____ for helping me instead of downvoting.

In all my active years on Stack Overflow, I don't recall the old "Be Nice" policy being used as some kind of "shield" against other users' moderating actions like this. I feel that we should treat this as a serious problem, since it's intimidating to whoever is constantly accused of not abiding to the CoC, when all they did was either instructing the user to our guidelines or curating the site. There is even evidence of this intimidation on Meta. Although to my knowledge this concern wasn't yet given a dedicated Meta question, the frustration that comes along with it has been lifted before:

[link] Of course there are some bad apples. Just as there's this small very vocal community of Stack Overflow Haters who post all over the internet about how offensive Stack Overflow is, there are also a few members who get their kicks by trolling people and being rude to them. But lumping all of us Experienced users into the same group as those people and telling us that we're being unwelcoming, that we don't understand the code of conduct, that our moderation techniques are harmful, while at the same time validating the people who claim that downvotes are personal attacks and that closing a question is offensive... Well that hurts. And it's very discouraging.

In fact, such an accusation sometimes feels like a breach of the CoC itself, since the accuser is not "being open when receiving feedback", and so not contributing to a positive exchange. On the other hand, I would not rely on flagging all of these occurrences as "unkind" either.

I understand that the code of conduct was the outcome of multiple iterations with community feedback, but some issues cannot be predicted without being already in effect. I cannot help but wonder whether it can be updated to address this concern. Rather than Band-Aiding over each of these comments with a "no longer needed" flag, it would be nice (no pun intended) to fix the underlying problem in this document.

Is this issue worth acting upon? How can we prevent the code of conduct from being used like a verbal shield against constructive criticism or moderation mechanisms?

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    Where is the issue? 14 disgruntled users used the CoC as a "shield" over the course of 2 months hardly shows any kind of a trend. Even if we include all 97 results I would say no action is required.
    – Clint
    Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 17:35
  • 5
    I flagged a comment like those above as "unfriendly or unkind" and had it marked "helpful"... but anecdotes are not data. Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 17:36
  • 21
    @Clint: This is actually surprisingly common. A lot of people believe that the CoC somehow means that since you have to "be nice" to people, downvoting is not considered nice and is somehow actionable. The comment is simply tasty, tasty bait to incite someone out so that this impolite behavior can be punished. We all know that there's no punishment associated with downvoting a poor question or answer, but that won't stop the comments.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 17:38
  • 50
    I've seen a new user go on a rant when he didn't immediately get an answer, and when another user criticized his question he responded with comments like "I've flagged you for being rude" and "HELP!!! THIS PERSON IS BEING UNFRIENDLY AND HARRASSING ME!!!", which were clearly inspired by the CoC. Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 0:24
  • 26
    Stack Overflow may be going the way of Twitter and Facebook. Can't wait for a decentralized version.
    – Chloe
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 1:07
  • 6
    one way to deal with this is as yvette suggests to just flag and walk away. If enough people do that the behavior itself becomes disincentivized.
    – Magisch
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 7:32
  • 10
    The only real thing anyone can do is nuke the "welcoming" effort. The CoC probably wouldn't be too bad by itself; it's the context it's been placed in.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 15:53
  • 5
    I distinctly remember a number of warnings that crap like this would happen.
    – cHao
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 20:51
  • 15
    Then the user should put, in the question, exactly what they have tried to answer their own question. If they have googled the issue, cite what you have tried, why it didn't work, etc. However, most users don't do that. They say "I tried a bunch of different things" and dump code. I mean that literally. They don't link to other resources, they don't even say what search teams they have tried. I wish that How much research effort is expected of Stack Overflow users? was mandatory reading for every SO user.
    – zero298
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 22:13
  • 8
    Rules always become weapons. Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 22:40
  • 6
    @zero298 - have a proforma autocomment that links to "How much research effort is expced of Stack Overflow users?" and it consistently gets deleted by mods as "abusive" when it is just a link. If they do not want you to link to it, they should delete the question so it can not be linked to. I have 99.9% given up, SO becomes less and less relevant to me every day.
    – user177800
    Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 14:16
  • 5
    so ad hominem attacks are ok with the CoC? Attacking peoples character and attributing malicious intentions to them with no basis in fact is ok now? ASD people understand that there are only 3 kinds of people in this world. Those worth your time, those not worth your time and those you have not categorized yet. It takes a lot to move categories. If it is permitted to attribute things to peoples character/intentions in personal attacks by name now, the community is clearly not worth my time anymore and you can delete my account if comments doing so continue to be declined as such.
    – user177800
    Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 14:32
  • 7
    I went through your last thousand comments, @feeling. 11 of them linked to that post, of which two were deleted. One was deleted by you, the other was deleted by a moderator after being flagged as "no longer needed".
    – Shog9
    Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 14:42
  • 5
    I was told specifically by a mod not to post that anymore that it was abusive, and I have noticed that that same comment has was removed from other questions where I posted it about the same time. Whatever data you are looking at does not reflect what I was told and what I have witnessed in action. Really do not care anymore one way or the other. Have fun, I am done.
    – user177800
    Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 14:49
  • 8
    I am SO sick and tired of the PC Gestapo I am seriously reconsidering some of my positions...
    – Dean Kuga
    Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 20:59

11 Answers 11

138

TL;DR

"Flag as Harassment;Abuse / Move ON" is the new "Vote / Move On"

Nothing New ...

I for one have been complaining about the old Be Nice policy being weaponized by people that are passively aggressively publicly shaming down voters and others for doing what they earned the right to do, anonymously moderate the site.

And I am on the record stating many times that the infamous Blog Post was just emboldening those people and validating their abusive behavior every chance I have gotten on meta, in comments and answers. So to say who knew? who could have saw this coming? is disingenuous at best, because the answer is, well pretty much everyone.

In one particularly nasty episode here on meta where someone was disparaging me by name and claiming I did and said all kinds of malicious things by intentionally attributing "quotes" to me that I never made by editing and taking them out of context, their defense of this attack on my character was repeating but I am being polite. Thankfully I had screen shots of the comments before the mods deleted them and was able to defend myself with facts.

This person was claiming they were the victim and that they were being polite and only one person came to my defense and stated the obvious, paraphrased that you can be abusive and be polite about it and it does not change the fact that you are being abusive.

The fact that this new code of conduct as been further weaponized is not surprise to me and just further reinforces the vote/move on/never comment mantra now.

I make a point of flagging every comment anyone makes that even remotely could be considered in bad faith no matter how polite they are about telling you to f#@4 off if you have no intention of answering as abusive, because it is abusive to everyone that reads it and promotes a toxic entitlement attitude that has gotten more and more pervasive as well.

All I can say, is to do the same thing, because the popup says "your flags are taken seriously", which I can only infer to mean they are tracking them and doing some analysis on them and might take some action when they see what everyone else that is telling them is happening.

StackOverflow is unwelcoming to veteran contributors even more so than ever, do you know how you can tell?

Because we are telling you so!

So those of us that are withdrawing our active support of the site more and more by just not participating are doing it more and more silently, because we are telling you and you are not listening.

This illustrates why the New Contributor thing is so insulting:

enter image description here

But you will never see anything even remotely like this implemented.

The next logical step to vote/move on is move on to something more appreciated and more productive and unfortunately that is becoming more and more inevitable by the day.

The weaponization is not imagined:

Do fast close habits comply with the Code of Conduct?

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    Thank you so much for this Veteran Contributor illustration. It's perfect.
    – Eric Aya
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 9:44
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    +1 for the Veteran Contributor mockup. Politeness is a two way street - if SO is going to remind us to be nice to new users, would it be so wrong to remind new users to do the same for those of us who are trying to teach them how to use the site?
    – BJ Myers
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 16:05
  • 12
    I still have never been made to feel unwelcome as a veteran contributor. This answer — and others here — is just bizarre, even though I agree with OP that we have a potential problem on our hands. But the way in which this answer exaggerates and weaponises the issue is counterproductive and feels dishonest. Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 20:47
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    @KonradRudolph It is completely ironic to me that you readily embrace a movement based entirely on people feeling bad for no reason and yet so readily dismiss the feelings of people who feel bad because of the movement.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 22:43
  • 37
    @KonradRudolph It's simple: we feel attacked. Out of the blue, we're told that we're the problem. We're told that we're causing people of "minority" races and genders to feel bad, even though content of that nature is rare and immediately dealt with. We're told we're not nice enough, in spite of the overall professionalism of the site. Then they add encouragement for new users to flag anything that "subtly" makes them feel bad. This move makes SE's belief that new users' feelings are more important than content quality explicit. Of course that makes veterans feel unwelcome.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 23:07
  • 16
    @KonradRudolph You're subtly putting me down! If my comment "baffles" you, you must be saying I'm an idiot who can't think straight! I should flag your comment. You should be nicer and more accepting and acknowledge my feelings to validate my humanity! You should've asked me why I thought that instead of being dismissive. (Yes, I am being absurd to demonstrate what this welcoming push is about and how easily you end up on the wrong side of it.)
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 23:09
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    My observation of some veteran responses to the CoC phenomenon is that they're insisting on the "snowflake" status that they warned was the problem with the CoC in the first place, and I confess to being mystified - aren't these the most outspoken and robust users on the site? I don't mean to pick on FeelingUnwelcome's post, since there are many other examples of it - it just seems now that everyone really is racing to victimhood, even if they took politically conservative positions on the CoC before it was implemented. What is going on? :=)
    – halfer
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 8:31
  • 20
    @KonradRudolph No, I'm saying I've been attacked wrongly and unfairly, just for telling people that their questions are bad when their questions are bad.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 14:53
  • 11
    @halfer It's not as simple as being a "snowflake." It's about having the rug ripped out from under you. SO had quality as a founding principle; it was explicitly one of the most important things on the site. Essentially, SO promised that users wouldn't have to cater to people who asked bad questions or wrote bad answers. This move represents a complete reversal of that policy. The only realistic outcome is that quality concerns are dead and everyone now has to tiptoe around new users to avoid offending them. Maybe that already happened a long time ago, but now it's explicit.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 15:05
  • 12
    @KonradRudolph Let me see if I can add some missing context. I found out some time ago that, because of my political leanings, SO does not care about my feelings. The welcoming push and release of the CoC coincides with social/political groups pushing for them) and decrying merit as the basis for anything. Furthermore, the original welcoming post is dripping with their social/political views.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 16:22
  • 9
    @KonradRudolph You're probably thinking I'm some kind of conspiracy nut, so let me elaborate on what this actually means. All it means is that the idea that this is actually about "being nice" is disingenuous. It's not. It's about a fundamental shift in SO's core values to something they find socially and politically palatable, and anyone who falls outside of that is at risk of being targeted. This isn't speculative. It's happening. And quality has been pushed to the wayside to advance this ideology.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 16:26
  • 4
    @jpmc26 My assessment was based directly on the comment you linked. As for welcoming, I urge you and everybody upvoting your comments to read up and internalise the “paradox of choice”. You effectively demand that the site be welcoming to people who are unwelcoming. That’s inane and there’s simply no point debating it. Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 9:58
  • 9
    I am extremely disappointed by the deletion of the most pertinent comments that demonstrate exactly the problem I am pointing out. I knew I should've gotten a screenshot.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 13:45
  • 4
    @jpmc26 No. The CoC targets actions not intentions. It simply doesn’t matter as long as you abide by it. If you yourself decide that you don’t want to accept that that’s fine. But it’s on you. Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 14:09
  • 13
    Farewell, friend. :(
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 10, 2018 at 13:04
103

We're paralyzed.

Servy makes an excellent point that this sort of behavior was pointed out to the stewards of the CoC before the implementation went live. In fact, I do distinctly remember pointing this very thing out (amongst other people).

The Code of Conduct makes it seem such that anyone who feels that they've been wronged by someone in comments is fair game to get punished by the system. And that's fine...if they actually were wronged.

The only real thing we can do is nothing. Reacting to any comments like this would only start a flame war between you and the other person, and it just isn't worth it. Ironically, this is usually how fights were started with the old CoC, since users who feel like they're just trying to help the site out with some moderation would inevitably make a comment to someone else who felt like said moderation effort was offensive and demeaning to newbies.

Leave it alone, man. This ain't worth it.

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    [sarcasm] Who do you think you are, telling the OP to just leave it alone? Haven't you read the code of conduct? You should be helping them with their issue, not telling them that their question isn't worth it! [\sarcasm]
    – Davy M
    Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 17:41
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    @DavyM Watch it, that sarcasm makes a subtle put-down and it's totally against the code of conduct. ;)
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 18:15
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    The great irony is that the new CoC enforces "do nothing", which newbies always view as far more impolite than trying to talk it out in comments.
    – o11c
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 0:22
  • 14
    Flag them as no longer needed. Mods are happy to delete them.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 2:08
  • 3
    @E_net4 Telling Davy M that he's violating the code of conduct violates the code of conduct.
    – matt
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 15:43
  • 12
    @matt Since I only quoted from the code of conduct, that can only mean one thing: the code of conduct is in violation of the code of conduct!
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 15:45
  • 8
    "This ain't worth it." If that's true, then the site isn't worth being on.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 15:47
  • @jpmc26: I was more referring to the fact that it's not worth engaging with people who won't listen and won't change the subject, but you're free to interpret it that way, too.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 15:48
  • 5
    What I mean is that if it's not worth trying to do something about bad policy, then it's not worth being here under it.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 15:52
  • 4
    The problem with "This ain't worth it" is slippery slope. (People make fun of slippery slope arguments - until it's too late and irreversible and it isn't funny anymore.)
    – davidbak
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 17:17
  • 2
    I'm surprised at this answer. Unless this phenomenon can be shown to have overwhelmed the site, and proves resistant to re-education, then ignore or flag. Most answers here seem to be far more pessimistic than the scale of the problem could justify.
    – halfer
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 8:44
  • 3
    @halfer: I won't deny that my pessimism has oozed through on this answer. I've already said that I feel pretty disheartened behind the fact that feedback on what I view as critical infrastructure changes seems to go blissfully ignored, whereas we get a "new user" indicator in 96 hours flat. Fact of the matter is that we're still ill-equipped to deal with situations like this. Flagging only gets us so far.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 16:17
  • @Makoto: I think little oases like SO CVR are a nice bulwark against the torrent of LQ material, and FWIW I think there will always be a component of community moderation, regardless of whether there is a CoC, or what it says. I am minded to agree with you in part, which is that I'd like a posting wizard that spell-checks and filters for non-technical writing. I think we could cut down on a lot of LQ material that way.
    – halfer
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 16:32
  • @Makoto: ... However, I appreciate that SO is a business, and it has a duty to make sure the system is not so rigorous that it kills the business stone dead in the process of selecting for quality. (I'm all in favour of the decentralised non-corporate version, were such a thing to come into existence, but if we want a good quality Q&A resource we also have to be practical!).
    – halfer
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 16:32
  • 3
    When someone flames what I consider to be a reasonable comment I figure they're a jerk, and any response I make will turn me into a jerk as well. (The jerk virus is similar to the zombie virus. Y'know, get too close to a zombie and you turn into a zombie. Similarly, interacting with a jerk turns you into a jerk). What I'd really like is a "don't ever show me anything this jerk posts" list that I can add jerks to so that I'd never waste my time on them again. But I expect that would be unfriendly and unwelcoming, and thus contra-CoC. I blame it on interacting with too many jerks. (*sigh*) Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 17:26
98

This might prove to be an unpopular move, but I'll just put it out there:

This all seems to be very much in line with the moral panic sweeping larger parts of the culture. Trigger warnings, safe spaces, political correctness, micro aggressions etc. pp. If you feel insulted, you're entitled to feel insulted and the aggressor is always in the wrong. If there's a writ you can wave around in your defence, all the better.

This isn't isolated to just Stack Overflow, it's a larger cultural phenomenon. Arguably the entire Welcoming campaign is an outgrowth of this. And even with all the changes being made to accommodate and be welcoming, it's simply never enough. Unless and until everyone gets exactly what they want, which is pretty much "I post whatever I want here, I get exactly the answer I want", this isn't going to stop; which means it won't stop.

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    @usr2564301 The solution is not snark, but efficient tools for the moderating community to wipe the garbage off the site. The fact that 5 3k votes plus 3 20k/10k votes needed for getting rid of a single useless question does not scale anywhere near enough has been evident since I joined this site and probably well before that, and it has not become any better.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 10:41
  • 1
    @usr2564301 I recently proposed another way to counter: Close voters call to arms: let's make this September welcoming
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 10:42
  • 11
    @Baum New moderator elections twice weekly!
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 10:43
  • 3
    @deceze Haha, hammers for everyone! =D On a more serious note, expanding badge privs or electing some sort of "tag moderators" or measures in that direction would already help. But then again, lack of proposals is not what's holding us back here.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 10:46
  • 17
    @BaummitAugen We could breath some new life into this proposal from 2014, by Tim Post. If a silver tag badge holder's dupe-vote counted double or thrice, it would help clear the CV queue and prepare the silver tag badge holder for the day they get Mjölnir. Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 11:11
  • 11
    @S.L.Barth That's one of the good proposals, though I would prefer to not restrict to dupe votes. But anyway, as I said there are tons of old and new proposals that would all move into the right direction, each attached with rather exhaustive discussions of how to implement or tune it. IMO, the ball lies firmly in the court of the company. Time to get something out the door for the actual core contributors and especially for those who spend their free time on the Sisyphean task of quality control on this site.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 11:17
  • (Just noticed on re-reading that Tim explicitly did not want to give more weight to existing privs. Anyway, the point stands.)
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 11:49
  • 11
    This might be unpopular, but that does not make it less true. World has gone mad and there is very little we can do about it. I wish I could upvote this hundred times, not just once.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 11:58
  • 24
    Spot on. Just look around: firing people for suggesting sex differences exist, calling someone a "rape apologist" for discussing the complexities around rape statistics, and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find more things like this. You can't even talk about these issues without being accused of being a bigot.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 17:05
  • 8
    Okay, no. Don't lump in trigger warnings with the rest of that. I have PTSD. If I trigger it, it breaks me. I have a panic attack that can last hours, and that's after months of therapy. I'll literally curl up in the fetal position and be unable to move. That is what trigger warnings help prevent. They're not 100% foolproof, but they help a lot. If you imply they're just something to make sure everyone is coddled, you deserve to suffer it firsthand. -1 for that, even though the rest is good.
    – Nic
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 23:37
  • 12
    @NicHartley They do represent the shift in thinking we're seeing: that it is incumbent upon everyone else to adjust everything they do to help you with your problem. It's the same with peanut allergies; now we have school systems banning peanut butter, a staple lunch for school kids for longer than any of us have been alive. (Fun fact: lack of exposure to peanut products at an early age increases the risk of developing the allergy.) I'm sorry you suffer from PTSD, but you can't expect all of society to warn you constantly. And you can't call someone hateful for saying it's unreasonable.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 1:10
  • 9
    @NicHartley (To clarify, I know you aren't saying other people are hateful, but that is the general attitude of the shift deceze is describing: if someone isn't willing to do whatever extreme measure that is being proposed supposedly in the name of those who are said to suffer, they're derided as mean, hateful, and a valid target for violence in some cases. It really is that extreme now.)
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 3:39
  • 13
    @Nic Yes, what he said. ☝️ I'm not saying things like trigger warnings are nonsense and we should get rid of them, but rather that these things have become omnipresent and are being weaponised. It is now not an oversight or unknowingness to omit trigger warnings (or to state something not 100% politically correct etc.), it is now an act of aggression. Translated to SO, it is now not moderation and system maintenance to downvote, it has now become an act of aggression. Which, I think, needs to be dialled back to a reasonable level again.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 7:58
  • 2
    @deceze Ah, okay, that's a lot more fair. The way I read it, it sounded like you were saying trigger warnings were solely for idiots to justify being hateful. They're not. They're analogous to expecting a restaurant to make reasonable adjustments to cater to fatal allergies: If you'll die when you touch peanuts and you go to a Thai place, it's not their fault everything is contaminated. If I knowingly trigger myself, that's on me. If I go to a fast food place and ask for no peanuts, and they put them in anyway, that's not my fault in the slightest. Analogously, if a site which normally has
    – Nic
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 8:12
  • 11
    This post is exactly what was going through my mind, so +1. I just started taking a review math class as an adult and was baffled that we started the class off discussing steps to take if you're offended. What could possibly be offensive about anything in calculus?! I feel similarly about SO/programming.
    – HFBrowning
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 18:04
73

People are endlessly imaginative when they have to find a way to get what they want. Shaming somebody else is something we all learned from the age of ~4, whether from dealing with an older sibling or from kinderschool. Somewhat predictably, the new CoC is just another weapon in the arsenal. Useful in particular to anybody that can't get what he really wants, an answer to his crappy question.

I've been trying to find an explanation to this new approach, tabling the complaints about anatomy and skin color never once made any sense to me. I thought it had something to do with the relentlessly decreasing success of the web site, the reversal of the number of page view statistic last fall makes any web site owner nervous. But that didn't make all that much sense either, given that the real problem is that Google no longer indexes SO content and the [welcoming] approach did absolutely nothing to reverse the trend.

I fell off my chair when I accidentally visited this web site while researching a meta question. Been around a long time, used to be the frontal for a game, but recently acquired by Joel Spolsky. Check it out, the message is quite thickly spackled on and hard to miss. Wow, the web's misery is a business opportunity for a cynical entrepreneurial American. There is no shame when you make one more buck to show you're doing it better, the measure of accomplishment in the USA.

We have to stop allowing them to push our buttons. This is our web site, we made it successful by ourselves and they had nothing to do with it.

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    Some of your post is kind of ranty, but "the real problem is that Google no longer indexes SO content" is definitely true. I did explicitly try to warn and explain to SE what they were doing to their search footprint when this first started happening but to no avail. The sad irony is that as a result of the current design, SO is treated by Google as a forum. All the related posts are grouped into what may as well be multiple pages of the same thread, and the resulting search reflects that sad fact. I wish they would address this, but I don't think the ranty points factor into it.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 22:05
  • 16
    Offer a better explanation, I'll be quite happy to listen to it. Dismissing it as "ranty" is, erm, not so welcome. Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 22:10
  • 19
    You are missing the shaming angle. I have two kids, the oldest one is a very, very smart. Second one is five years younger and not as smart but very cute. How the smart one got to be so mean to the cute one was a very interesting dynamic to observe. I do hope they figure out how to live with each other some day, can't be around forever. Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 22:18
  • 13
    I think you are missing the emotional appeal I intended, don't let cynical business men push your buttons and stop you from what you want to do. It is very uncomfortable to think they might want to do something like that, sorry to break it to you. Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 22:24
  • 8
    I don't understand the part about glitch.com. It looks like it's old, but how was it "acquired by Joel Spolsky"? He's the co-founder of Fog Creek Software, which later became Glitch. What am I missing? Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 2:58
  • 10
    Not quite, Jeff Atwood and his friends built the web site. Jeff left in 2012, ostensibly to spend more time with his family. He actually started his own business because, erm, that's a great way to find more family time. It went all to hell in a handbasket after that. Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 7:56
  • 11
    Nowadays it generally collapses all SO matches into a single hit. Not ordered in any way, other than by date. That is how a forum I used to contribute to lost its traffic. It was pretty noticeable to me when they started doing this, I lost about 40% of the votes I used to get. The page views statistic is however not quite so badly affected. Some SO content is still featured as a single hit, not sure how it is special. Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 11:51
  • 35
    I have no idea how Glitch is relevant to Stack Overflow at all or what inference you're making about Spolsky from his connection to it. Maybe spell it out for those of us who don't speak sinister implication as fluently as we speak plain English?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 13:25
  • 13
    @gnat What does any of that have to do with Glitch?! Seriously, I don't understand how it's relevant in any way to Stack Overflow.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 13:49
  • 13
    @MarkAmery it's right there, at the top of their page: "friendly community where you’ll find or create blah blah". Just a few clicks from there, you can find more of it: "Trying to make tech more ethical & humane... over a million people have become part of the community, creating amazing apps, bots, websites, art projects, virtual reality experiences, interactive infographics and much more." Ideal place to dump questions like how to move turtle in Logo. No votes down and close, everything is either amazing or super-amazing
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 13:55
  • 10
    @gnat I still agree with Mark Amery after reading your reply. Call me naive, but I don't get what's the matter with Glitch. Definitely not my kinda thing (and I do have contempt to spare for the "positive thinking / everything is super" crowd, just as I deeply loathe the PC police and entitlement-prone douchebags making so much noise on SO these days), but "live and let live". IMO SO will never be Glitch. If things go bad, SO will die long before transforming into that, and hopefully something better will be born out of the unbalance. But I may be naive - time will tell...
    – Mena
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 15:18
  • 8
    It is an old marketing technique. To get people to buy your stuff you first have to make them aware that they need it. Like you can't sell light beer until you convince enough people that they are too fat. Hehe. I think, never touch that vile stuff. Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 15:43
  • 12
    With regards to the motivation, I don't know why you're so confused. It's part of the larger social push deceze mentions. There are entire foundations dedicated to it: contributor-covenant.org. I don't think it has anything to do with loss of clicks. It's about ideology. There'd be no other reason to bring "marginalized groups" into it if it wasn't. Nearly as I can figure their "data" is about people whining about being marginalized or having their "humanity invalidated" all over the web.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 16:02
  • 13
    Remember this? stackoverflow.blog/2012/08/08/… from back when the goal was "curate a collection of questions and answers" not "hand-hold people through their cs homework".
    – Ben
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 20:46
  • 11
    Dismissing people's contribution to a discussion as "noise" is not polite. Maybe it is not as easy as you think, it does take practice. Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 17:55
41

Flag these comments as No Longer Needed

As a rule flag them as no longer needed, if they're rude/unwelcoming then use the other flags. Don't make the goto flag be rude/unwelcoming.

What people need to realise is the Code of Conduct is not just for the longer term community, it's for new users also.

Sometimes it's like an Learner driver going onto the road for the first time yelling out the window at other drivers for not giving way at a roundabout, when in fact it's the L plater who's driving in the wrong direction.

There's an irony in people making these comments and flagging innocuous comments as unkind or abusive. On unwelcome and rude flags, I go to the post itself and read the comment thread. Frequently, people who use the Code of Conduct as a weapon on other users will find themselves having their own comments deleted and I will leave them a comment. If the comment flagging persists they may receive a private mod warning.

Use your flags

  • If you see comments you think are not ok, flag them.

  • If you're not feeling patient with someone flag and move on. There's a mod there who can be your best asset and will take on the problem for you. That's what we're here for.

  • If you find yourself writing comments telling people they're in breach of the CoC, delete and flag instead. That's what the mods are for. The referees to call our foul play.

Unwelcoming/Unkind/Rude/Abusive flags

Another reminder Comments asking for clarification or an MCVE are not rude/abusive.

This latest post is known to make guest appearances in mod messages:

When is a comment hostile or unfriendly? (Educating newer users how to flag comments)

1
  • 11
    Honestly it feels like "use your flags not your words" is the programming site equivalent of how we teach preschoolers to use the words and not their fists.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 2:18
30

While reading the question here it triggered for me another issue I have with some users that ties very well with the current topic: some users take down-votes as a personal attack. And this is one of the roots of the problem: you down-vote me - therefore you attack me - therefore you violate the code of conduct.

I think we need to get the point across that down-votes are for the question and they help the community. Votes are a measure of how much a question is useful to the community. They have absolutely nothing to do with the user (those who have - e.g. serial down-voting - are corrected). It is very important to keep a metric of good/bad questions on this site, especially in the context of the high debit of new question and the new code should not be used as an excuse to circumvent this. A new question from a new user should be down-voted as easily as before if it merits the down-vote. The code of conduct is here to avoid harassment via snarky, condescending, ironic (etc.) comments.

My suggestion is to improve the https://stackoverflow.com/conduct page with an added section explaining why down-votes and close-votes are important and how they are not personal and should be taken as a constructive feedback, not as a personal attack. The code should not be used as a carte blanche excuse for low-quality questions.

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    My pet theory is that social networks and such have conditioned people more and more to equate their content with themselves and therefore downvotes with votes against their person. Not sure this is really something that can easily be untrained.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 11:58
  • 1
    This feels close in spirit to my derived question, modulated by Nicol Bolas' comment there.
    – duplode
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 13:05
  • 5
    On the other hand, downvotes impact on your reputation (that is, if you have achieved any). So the explanation on downvotes not being "personal" may be suitable for rep 1 "user123456" newbies, but harder to get through to the rest of the crowd. Not that I disagree with the concept, mind you.
    – Mena
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 15:26
12

I think this is a short-term problem. Anytime there's a new shiny thing around, people will try to use it for whatever they feel it should be used for without actually caring about its intent. However, since moderators are the ones with the actual power, these comments don't really matter. Users downvoting and close-voting appropriate posts will not be sanctioned.

People stop using shields when the shields prove ineffective.

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    It's been around since time immemorial, just in different forms or turns of phrase. The discussion around the new CoC produced no clear form of discipline for users who abuse this, and it's unlikely that it will now.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 17:44
  • 6
    They won't be published by moderators, no, but they're likely to get frustrated by being abused constantly, and stop engaging in such beneficial behaviors due to how unwelcoming the community is becoming.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 17:47
  • 2
    ...and then post about it on social media @Servy? :(
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 17:47
  • 4
    @Makoto I expect most won't, and because they won't, SO won't care about them and change any of their policies. Because the people wanting to remove moderation actions are more publicly noisy, they're who SO cares about making happy.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 17:48
  • @Makoto: My point is that, when people see that citing the CoC isn't have an effect, they'll stop using that particular form of this accusation. So it's short-term. Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 17:49
  • 4
    I don't see this as "temporary" problem - CoC does nothing to clarify that question askers need to respect moderation actions... Removal of such comment at some later point does not really lower impact on target persons - after one gets enough of them there is a good chance of stopping or altering moderation... Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 18:30
  • 1
    @AlexeiLevenkov: "CoC does nothing to clarify that question askers need to respect moderation actions..." It also doesn't specifically call out many other cases. The CoC cannot enumerate every possible not-nice or unwelcoming thing people can say. "Removal of such comment at some later point does not really lower impact on target persons" That is the only remedy for people who violate the CoC. Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 18:55
  • @NicolBolas: I remain firmly unconvinced that this will be a thing, but I should at least laud you for your optimism.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 19:00
  • @Makoto: That what will be a thing? That this will be short-term? Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 19:01
  • Yes, given that, again, this is very much something that's been going on since forever...
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 19:02
  • 2
    @Makoto: I'm talking about what the OP said about "Be nice" vs. the CoC. The OP's point being that "Be nice" hadn't specifically been called out by users in this way, while the CoC is specifically being called out and linked to. That's the part that I'm saying is transitory. That is, people will still say we're being mean by downvoting. But they won't be linking citing the CoC when they do so. Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 19:17
  • 27
    And I'll say that as a moderator, I've seen many, many cases where people did use "Be Nice" over the years for the exact things called out here. The onsite and offsite attention brought to the Code of Conduct has made more people aware of it, and thus more likely to cite it incorrectly, but this has been going on for years. I think Nicol is right, it will die down over time. In the meantime, keep flagging inappropriate comments and we'll keep removing them, just as we have for all the "Read the 'Be Nice' guidelines, moron"-style comments over the last few years.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Oct 1, 2018 at 22:06
  • 6
    In my view, the danger here might come from how the new CoC is advertised, especially to new audiences - since the scope here apparently is to herd those fresh users into SO. If it's advertised as a tool to fuel self-entitlement, then we may yet see more and more "be nice" / "think positive" spam coming from SO's management, and used as a goofy shield against any form of criticism by snowflakey newbies. Once that fails, there will always be space for a "new new CoC", and so on, and so forth.
    – Mena
    Commented Oct 2, 2018 at 15:34
11

Any kind of criticism feels personal the less context it contains that could help to depersonalize it.

I have been active online for few decades and received my share of criticism. I believe I have developed a thick skin to even handle the infamous Linux kernel mailing list, but getting an unexplained downvote (anywhere, not just Stack Overflow) still hurts very deeply.

Why? because it makes me feel helpless. I don't know why my question, comment, or answer was downvoted. I don't know what I can do to fix it because the downvoters didn't give a reason.

Now, it hasn't crossed my mind to use the CoC as a defense, and I most certainly won't do it in the future since, as someone pointed out, doing that can be hurtful too. But it doesn't surprise me that someone else would use the CoC in just that manner.

As someone else pointed out, people do not realize that even polite criticism can hurt.

I do not know if it is possible to adapt the CoC to handle this. Chances are that those abusing it didn't read it close enough and maybe think it's the same as any other CoC.

At best maybe the CoC can add some examples of hurtful behavior and some clarifications. (Like: a downvote is never personal, even if there is no reason. Complaining about it is unkind. If you really feel wronged, talk to a moderator)

The real problem I fear is that kindness can not be legislated, but must be learned. As yet another person observed, this appears to be a general social problem. We are trying to more and more legislate how to treat each other, but I don't see many trying educate people how to actually be more kind to each other.

Here is what I learned over the years:

No one likes to be criticized.

Every criticism hurts.

The only way to not hurt someone is to not criticize them at all; but sometimes criticism can't be avoided, therefore we need to recognize the effect our criticism has on others and take that into account.

The degree of hurtfulness depends on how well the two parties know and trust each other and how public or private the message is.

The least hurtful criticism comes from my most trusted friends in a personal conversation.

I don't know how this can be translated to Stack Overflow. Obviously we can't just stop criticizing. There needs to be a balance somewhere between criticism needed to correct behavior, and kindness to welcome people to contribute.

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  • 2
    "The real problem I fear is that kindness can not be legislated, but must be learned" -- Yup. For instance, I feel it is with respect to this point that those who voice worries along the lines of "whatever I say can be felt as unwelcoming to someone, so I can't say anything" go astray.
    – duplode
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 2:44
  • @TinyGiant Moderators should be able to sensibly judge the appropriateness of flags. While it is expected that mistakes will occasionally happen, I'd say that believing it is an all-or-nothing scenario with no reasonable equilibrium possible is a misreading of what goes on here. (As for your comment here, which I had seen yesterday, I feel it is neither here nor there with respect to this discussion, as it wouldn't seem unreasonable to remove it as "no longer needed" once you performed the edit fixing capitalisation.)
    – duplode
    Commented Oct 3, 2018 at 15:27
  • 5
    "Why? because it makes me feel helpless. I don't know why my question, comment, or answer was downvoted. I don't know what I can do to fix it because the downvoters didn't give a reason." And, adding insult to injury, people expect you to mouse over the downvote arrow, read the tooltip, and make a guess - any guess - as to what the reason could be and hope that your edit to your post is addressing the right problem. And when the downvote doesn't get removed, you have no idea if it's because the voter has moved on, or because you guessed wrong and they have chosen not to retract their vote.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 8:42
  • 2
    @BoltClock: You summoned this particular problem. Less downvote comments are being left because of the CoC. From the debates I thought it was intentional.
    – Joshua
    Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 17:32
  • @Joshua: I had to do a double-take there - did you mean "summed up"? ;)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Oct 5, 2018 at 1:00
  • @BoltClock: No. Summoned as in caused to come upon you.
    – Joshua
    Commented Oct 5, 2018 at 1:01
  • 1
    @Joshua: Oh. In that case, what do you mean I summoned it? I wasn't involved in the development of the CoC, or the voting system, nor have I advocated for downvoting without comment. I'm not affiliated with those who work on the site, and I certainly don't enforce the CoC on comments I deem reasonable despite what those terms might suggest.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Oct 5, 2018 at 1:05
  • @BoltClock: My apologies.
    – Joshua
    Commented Oct 5, 2018 at 1:11
11

I too have seen a few appeals, to the code of conduct, from new and low-quality contributors. However, I'll cheerfully take an unpopular opinion here and say that this is a minor and inconsequential phenomenon. You could:

  • Ignore such remarks
  • Explain that while we are trying to make some cultural changes, it does not excuse posts that do not meet the posting guidelines
  • As Yvette says, flag as "no longer needed"

One of the paradoxes of this theme is this: we've been through our own Meta cultural war to argue for and against CoCs, and regardless of where each of us stood on the issue, we now have that code. One of the objections to them was that hypersensitivity is encouraged in everyone, and that all complaints of victimhood must be automatically upheld. I don't necessarily agree with that criticism, but the "old guard" here must now not fall into that same trap.

Thus, if we see a few cheap appeals to the CoC to defend poor questions, let us not respond with hypersensitivity or victimhood. Let us take one of the options above, and move on to the next question. If it turns out this is a significant problem, then perhaps we need to change the on-boarding process for new members, but for now, it is not really much to worry about.

0
8

I called this out specifically during the discussion around the new CoC before it was live.

You can't make an all-inclusive society.

In a completely different context, I and others made every reasonable opportunity to accommodate the new guy. He was given an important part. We covered for his mistakes. We tried to make his design work, far beyond a reasonable effort. We, in fact, went to an extraordinary effort of attempting it and bent some of our designs around it. Yet it failed. His response:

Guys want me please.

I found only one possible interpretation. He was complaining that he was unwanted because we couldn't make his thing work. We tried hard, yet he felt unwelcome because the result was bad.

"Be welcoming" is inevitably turned as a cudgel against the more able. It's like people want to believe that a certain kind of fair should be involved that doesn't make sense. It's not the fair of justice nor equality of law but more like a belief that people ought to have equal potential, therefore, math* should bend so that they do.

We need to stop wielding this as a cudgel. Most of the problems don't seem to be not understanding how the site works. Most of the problems seem to be from not understanding how to ask or how to answer. Yeah we got some real problems with some people posting rude comments. We've got more problems with people not understanding Wittgenstein's ladder and voting stuff down because the question isn't asked in the proper form when if the OP knew the proper form he would be really close to solving his own problem. For certain kinds of things, I took too long ago ignoring the fact the question almost certainly has a duplicate and immediately answering the question using the OP's own code as the example code for how to understand the problem. I got an awful lot of zero score accepted answers, etc. that way.

*I wrote physics the first time. It's a worse word choice but perhaps its easier to understand.

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  • 5
    "Guys want me please." – Sorry, what? Your story is falling entirely flat because the punchline makes no sense. 😅
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 17:41
  • 7
    You do have a good point about equality of opportunity vs. equality of outcome in there though. The latter of which is impossible to achieve.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 4, 2018 at 17:42
6

I think this campaign trying to make the site more welcoming is an emphatic and pro-empathizing campaign that lacked some empathy in its implementation.

I agree with @deceze that this campaign was put in place in response to what the world as a whole is worrying about these days. I won't list any names or point in any direction but there has been a lot of controversy as to how inclusive the Software Development community truly is, and how misguided certain efforts are, etc. So it makes sense that SE would worry about that too, and try to stay ahead of the curve.

I think the problem here is that by saying we need to be more polite, they didn't point out that as a whole many many many people in here are truly polite, and at is core many people here are here truly only to help other people, which is a really noble, and polite attitude. But let's play devil's advocate, maybe they didn't feel the need to point it out, because for them it is obvious? In the same way when you answer someone something "negative" or down-vote, you don't need to tell the OP "this is nothing personal, I am grading the content, not you". They didn't feel the need to say many people here are polite.

They sent a lot of surveys about this, so unless you assume evil/foolish intent it is safe to assume that many of the changes were drawn out of those surveys. So it can be safe to assume many people do feel unwelcome here. OR it could be a case of serious misrepresentation where many veteran users didn't answer the surveys? I doubt it.

I never felt unwelcome because of my gender or race, although I haven't disclosed it much, so can't tell the experience others may have had. However I have felt unwelcome, and I have felt some users have been rude to me (when this happens I usually verify it with someone else, since English is not my native language and sometimes it could be that I misunderstand something, and my native English co-workers/friends agreed with me that the SO user was being impolite) As general rule, though, there is going to be people out there in the world, in life, that are not going to be polite, so it didn't send me crying or make me feel betrayed. However cultural differences, and life experiences can exacerbate this bad experiences for some users.

But let's be realistic, I know for a fact there has been certain cases of impoliteness that have been blown out of proportion (I recall there was a veteran user that got into an argument with an OP and then the OP decided to take it to Reddit and then everything went to hell), but they were true cases of impoliteness that sadly received too much visibility. Sadly, in this world impoliteness/rudeness/evilness, receives more press, because usually people are more inclined to read about that or more interested on that.

I have something to say to the people that don't see there is a problem on the site with discrimination of different groups, it probably means you are really nice. I have noticed throughout my life that many of the most sweet and nice people actually are blind to certain discriminatory issues, because for them is totally illogical to be being mean to someone, or disregard someone's contribution based only on their race or gender. So they are blind to other people doing it, and find it hard to believe. But it exists. For example, being a woman in a IT can be extremely hard, when there are men(and woman) out there that will disregard your contributions or anything you say because you are probably just being hormonal, because you are in "those days". I repeat, I haven't suffered that kind of discrimination in SO, but I haven't in general disclosed I am a girl, so I can't tell if it does happen in SO, but I can assure you it happens on day to day jobs in IT, and many girls wind up stirring away from technical assignments towards more "human" assignments to avoid that kind of things. However, this has never led me to believe every men is a jerk and that all programmers are misogynist. Because that would be illogical. But it is what some people do to weaponize these kind of campaigns.

We all have biases, we need to understand this, and accept it, and embrace it, having biases, making mistakes, even sometimes being impolite, doesn't make anyone evil, or a piece of trash, it only makes you human.

Asking people to be polite, is not telling people they are not. In a community so large as this, is not practical to send every single person a personalized message. Even then what is perceived as polite can vary a lot from person to person, from culture to culture. So take it as a friendly reminder. And don't allow them to weaponize it.

In my personal opinion, it has been always a sore spot to receive a down-vote without a reason, I don't need to know who down-voted my post, but if I were ever to improve I need a definite reason why my question is wrong, not esoteric machinations (the ones I imagine trying to understand what is wrong with my question, heh!). As it has been pointed out in many places down-votes are not ill will, just a mechanism, and the reason they don't force users to put a reason, is because the questions should be down-voted for the reasons listed in the rules, etc. However not everyone follow the rules, and it has happened to me that I ask "why am I getting down-votes, what do I need to improve?" and people (in this site) told me "nothing", so I was breaking my brain in vain trying to understand something that couldn't be understood. I think those down-votes without a reason are the reason many users feel un-welcome, imagine in real life if you were in a relationship, and the person dumped you without saying a word, just vanish, but you knew they are sound and well, just not talking to you any more. Is just maddening, however I understand the reasons and position of SO users that don't want to force users to place a reason, due to the sheer volume of poor questions, it would be impractical to force them to have to select something that is obvious for the most part. However, not everyone has the predisposition to try and understand the reasons why something is done in certain way. And in certain cultures, that kind of thing feels even more violent because there is no way in their mind a site would actually allow/promote/encourage such kind of behavior (because they have the "you ought to give a reason" mentality).

Also someone here pointed out they wanted SO to be for professional programmers, And I wonder, what does that mean? Many non-professional programmers do great questions, and I have seen in my every day life so called "professionals" that are lacking in basic professionalism. We shouldn't label people, we are here to judge content, not people.

Finally, there is always going to be people that abuse the rules, is just part of human experience, some people abide to them like crazy, some try to interpret them and follow them the best they can, and some will pick anything that may favor or that they can twist them to abuse them.

With everything I said in mind, I advise you not take anything personal, there are here lots of people that actually appreciate what the most veteran and knowledgeable SO users do. I think, I speak for many when I say that I appreciate the help the community has given me in a technical level, and also when the people like @Servy offers his opinion and guidance on how to use the site.

I also advise, to keep an open mind, the people that felt mistreated may have a valid point, there could be something, certain users can do to improve. If someone tries to abuse the CoC we just need to use the rules and the CoC itself to answer them. We shouldn't engage in arguments with these people, some of them may be just trolling. But we need to try and be polite, not because of SO, but because in general, the world is a better place when we are nice to each other. And try to understand that even when you tried your most to be nice and polite, someone may feel mistreated anyway, because of their life experiences or who knows why. And there is not necessarily anything you could have done different.

If the OP is as extreme as to quit SO forever based on a single experience, that was in the frame of the rules, because he felt unjustly treated, and he is willing to deprive himself of the valuable information and help he can find in this site, then that is the OP's problem, and there is nothing we can do about it. But if the OP felt unwelcome because the other users were making qualitative comments about them and their attitude, then that is our loss.

If someone is trolling, or insulting others, we shouldn't engage in argument, I would point to the CoC and then proceed with the tools of the site. If the OP post an awful question and points to the CoC as a shield, just ignore it, that behavior amounts to children's "but it is unfair". We don't validate children "it is unfair" attitude by arguing with them at their same level. Lets follow the adage "chose your battles".

As it is, I worry more about the sheer volume of bad questions, that never seems to diminish. I for one when I tell a friend about using SO, I explain him how to use the site properly, but also tell them not to feel bad if someone seems rude in the way they point out you are doing something wrong. That one person shows impolite behavior doesn't mean the community is rude as a whole. I tell them to search thoroughly and try different things, and just then if they can't find anything to post a new question. To try and help with that issue, by preventing future poor questions.

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