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Incivility on Stack Overflow is not a new topic. But apparently it's been given new life. So here's your chance to sound off on what we, as a community, can do about it.

But first, some of my own observations and opinions.

As a diamond moderator, I have cleared thousands of flags on Stack Overflow. Do "isms" occur on Stack Overflow? Of course, just like they do on every other public venue on the Internet. Have I seen them personally? I honestly can't remember the last time I had to clear such a flag.

So either people aren't flagging such things, the user community and moderators are very good at eliminating those things from the system before I ever see them, or they just don't happen with any significant frequency.

The problem isn't with "isms." New users can't just do anything they want to on our platform like they can on Facebook, Twitter, or any number of other forums on the Internet. Sometimes they complain about that. Sometimes they make that complaint about an "ism." And I'm not necessarily on board with the idea that just because someone complains about something, and makes it about an "ism," that it's an actual problem to be solved.

The real problem with incivility is comments of the form "RTFM," "Is Google down today," etc. You already know about this, because you've seen them yourself. Maybe you've even posted a couple out of sheer frustration. I know this because I confess to doing it myself, more than once.

These comments don't serve anyone except the person posting them.

We need to hold ourselves to an impeccable standard in the way that we respond to all community members. Otherwise, we'll always be accused of "isms". However, I don't believe that language lawyering or legislating comments is the right answer.

I believe that part of the solution is to refrain from explaining question deficiencies in detail via comments and let the system respond to new users instead, using civil language that we can all agree on. Comments should be reserved for their only sanctioned purposes: to clarify, and to ask for clarification. For everything else (that follows the "Be Nice" policy), there's always chat.

But the system does needs improvement. We need ways for the system to respond to new users that are educational, informative and civil. The system doesn't do that right now. Stack Exchange has expressed a willingness to do the things they need to do to make that happen; it's your job as a community to help them do that.

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    I guess all we needed was a meta post that focused on just this one specific issue. Let's see how this goes. More context: Bill the Lizard's answer
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:50
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    Ideas about improving comments always seem to presume that the only way to clarify questions with the OP is via an open dialog with free-entry text boxes. Giving people (nearly) free reign with text entry is just impossible to control completely. Let's think about how to achieve the same end without comments at all.
    – joran
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:51
  • 9
    We need to hold ourselves to an impeccable standard but the new users don't need to? Why is it wrong to expect them to do this also. Why can't they at least attempt to fix their problem, or search this site for solutions, or do any number of other things before just dumping their problem here
    – tima
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:52
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    @tima: No one said that new users don't need to.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:53
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    There is a spectrum for comments: Ranging from "RTFM" over "Have a look at the documentation of the foo method" (which is essentially the same thing!) or "This is answered here: [link to docs]", or saying "The reason is [some quote from the docs], as written in the docs" (which may essentially be an answer to the question!). The point where a comment is perceived as "uncivil" or "hurting feelings" (shudder) will always have to be negotiated.
    – Marco13
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:53
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    @BoltClock no he didn't but that is the thing, all these posts and the blog post that caused all these posts never lay any blame on the new users. It's all about we need to change, we need to do this, etc.
    – tima
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:54
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    @Marco13: To be clear, I'm not saying that you should refrain from posting these. I'm saying that you should make your language as neutral as possible when posting them, and then refrain from being drawn into an argument when the OP responds.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:54
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    @Marco13: Let's hope that people will come to a reasonable consensus on what's civil and what isn't. There will be people who think any sort of condescension is okay no matter how much they reflect on it, and there will be people who won't take anything they don't want to hear for an answer. Let's not optimize for either of those extremes.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:55
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    @tima: Dealing with the incivility of new users is the province of moderation. This post isn't about the behavior of new users who can (rightly) claim ignorance. It's about the behavior of the community responding to them.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:55
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    @tima Maybe we can't change the new users, but we can change ourselves. When you meet uncivility with more uncivility you're pretty much guaranteed an escalation. Going along the lines "but they started!" has seldom improved anything.
    – ivarni
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:00
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    @RobertHarvey The problem is that speaking the truth with a language that one could consider (and I, as a non-native english speaker do consider) as plain, clear and neutral is nowadays considered to be "condescending". I hesitate to post it, but I think this tweet (which is strongly related to the recent events) shows exactly and clearly what I mean. Pun intended.
    – Marco13
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:01
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    @MartinJames: For awhile, I've made a point on Software Engineering to post brief, specific, polite comments about why their questions are substandard. I've concluded that such efforts are a waste of most people's time.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:02
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    Oh - I'm in agreement with a moderator. I've gotta go down the bar and get ratted now. Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:04
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    @RobertHarvey As I already tried to point out with the "spectrum", and as an overly suggestive example: When a request for clarification (what a comment is intended for) is phrased as "You have to show us the code at line XYZ", and this is criticized for not being written "It would be nice if you showed us the code at line XYZ", then this turns into a form of socializing that is not productive, and will cause people to refrain from writing comments even if their intention is positive in the spirit of the site. But... I'll refrain from writing further comments here. Too many turmoils ATM.
    – Marco13
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:10
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    @RobertHarvey: I think the point Mason is trying to make is that the person who responds in that way will be the one who claims that we're the ones being rude. And that person will take to Twitter, Reddit, and so forth and claim that we're unwelcoming. This goes back to the line number example; they claim that this is unwelcoming, but it is difficult to see it as such once you look at the example. So we're trying to make changes based on people, many of whom are incorrect about specific instances of us being unwelcoming. Commented May 2, 2018 at 17:24

4 Answers 4

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I think before we can have a constructive discussion on the matter, we need to define these terms:

  • Educational
  • Informative
  • Civil

...because at best, that's a moving target.


Educational

There are quite a lot of people who believe that Stack Overflow is suffering because of the quality of questions we receive. When it comes to talking about how we "educate" users, it usually takes two mutually exclusive forms:

  • What kinds of questions we want them to ask, and
  • How their question is structured.

Of the comments I've seen, a question falls in one of two forms, and is still met with open hostility. I get that we don't support questions about Facebook or we can't really help people out with doing all of their homework, and I get that we can't do anything with a question if they don't have any code.

But how do we educate users with this? We have to answer this question first:

What message are we trying to convey to a user?

Are we trying to tell them that their question is poor? Are we asking them to add more details to their question? What happens when we try to tell them both things at the same time?


Informative

Comments are informative by default in that they at least enlighten users. Some users even believe that they are answers and should be wholly rewarded. That's horribly broken and backwards from the intent of comments as to distort their usability outright.

So...I ask again:

What information are we trying to convey?

Do we permit situations where a post is answered in comments? How do we curb extended conversation? How do we ensure that any valid information makes its way into something less temporal (like the main question or an answer)?


Civil

There are people who find it quite civil to suggest to someone that they need to learn how to operate a debugger. Or that they need to read the How to Ask page. Or [insert passive-aggressive comment here]. Those on the receiving end of those comments may acutely disagree with those assertions.

So...

Where and how do we draw the line for civility?

Do we stop short of those snide comments? How do we police it? What steps do we need to take to ensure that the community feels included and welcomed in discussions?


So far, none of the discussion on the site has even come close to defining what any of the goals should be with respect to where the site actually is and what the community's capable of doing. This isn't something diamond moderators can help us with. Only we in the community can do anything about this. Much of this starts with policy change. The rest...we may need some implementations to sort out or smooth a few more processes over.

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  • I think before we can have a constructive discussion on the matter, we need to define these terms -- "Neutral language, engage only once" covers this pretty well.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:59
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    @RobertHarvey: I meant the royal "we", as in "The Stack Overflow Community". Everyone has a barometer of neutrality which doesn't quite mesh with actual neutrality. There's more than enough Meta posts on the matter of how we engage with users that I don't think we need to spin our wheels on that aspect.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:03
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    I think what I'm trying to say in my OP is that, the more we can rely on the SE software itself for this kind of feedback, the less we have to do it ourselves and risk being accused of rudeness. Let's face it; we all know that SE could do a better job at this.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:11
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    @RobertHarvey: I think I get that. But we still have to have some kind of heuristic or algorithm that the software itself can follow. If we don't know what we should do in these scenarios, then by definition no software could.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:12
  • See this link for an example of what I am talking about.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:13
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    @RobertHarvey: And again, I explicitly agree with that (even upvoted that answer). But that's still just one aspect of this. I don't think I even go into upvotes here; I'm more talking about comments. That's a much harder system to get anything automated in from my perspective, but that seems to be the spot with the most friction.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:16
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    @Makoto If the system was able to convey the meaning of flags and downvotes to the user automatically, the community should (hopefully) feel less of a need to even make a comment in the first place. In fact, if we had such a system, I would prefer that we stop encouraging downvoters to explain their downvote. Why can't downvotes speak for themselves? Some people are prone to explain their criticism in a hostile way, so maybe we should just let the system explain it, unless they want to go above and beyond to help the user improve their question.
    – Clay07g
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 18:15
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    @Clay07g "If the system was able to convey the meaning of flags and downvotes to the user automatically" - I once proposed splitting up our "missing SSCCE" close reason into a bunch of more specific close reasons in order to try and achieve precisely this objective. It was the most heavily downvoted post I've ever made on Stack Exchange, and was (perhaps ironically, given this question 5 years later) shot down in the answers by Robert Harvey. But maybe times have changed, and this is the sort of idea that the community is now open to.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 21:13
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The only reason I ever post a variation of "what have you tried?" is to get the OP to improve their question since the alternative is to downvote the question as it doesn't show research effort and that just inherently leads to the unwelcoming attitude it feels like we're all being blamed for.

I do agree on the principle though that allowing the system to handle the feeding back constructive criticism could work, but that system would need to be primed ready to do this before we all stop posting comments to get the OP to show their own effort because otherwise we're just going to become worn out and flooded by the never-ending sea of low quality posts and then we all lose.

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refrain from custom explanations and let the system respond to new users, using civil language that we can all agree on

I strongly think that this would be a mistake. Our question closure reasons (and the similar copy you proposed to show to users when they get downvoted) are, by design, coarse-grained. If someone fails to post an MCVE, for instance, there are multiple ways they might have failed: it might not be minimal, might not be complete, might not be verifiable due to not reproducing the behaviour described, might not be verifiable due to there not being a clear description of the desired and observed behaviour, or probably a bunch of other nuanced reasons. For an asker who's actually struggling to follow the rules, the coarse-grained explanations suck; they don't provide detail on precisely why the community was unhappy with them. And the multitude of Meta questions demanding explanations for downvotes are clear evidence that that's something many new users desperately want when their questions are badly received.

The position you're giving here is one I've been afraid of, and don't want to see come to pass. Cracking down on the freedom of experienced users to offer specific criticism of questions will surely reduce the rate of clearly-recognisable incivility, but it will do so at the cost of making the norms of the site more difficult for new users to learn - we will become less accessible on net. And for what? Are some nasty words from an irate user really that much more upsetting to read than some soulless polite text in a closure banner? Are they really more upsetting to read at all? Even if one new user in every ten were called a moron, I don't think this would be a good tradeoff, and we're already miles from that level of incivility.

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  • See this link for an example of what I am talking about.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:56
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    Okay, sure, so what you have in mind wouldn't be written in a closure reason - but still it's still soulless, patronising (at least to my sensibilities), and free of detail. I'd rather be shouted at if the shouting at least included a hint about what I specifically, in my particular question had done wrong. I've updated my answer slightly, but its core thesis doesn't change.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 16:58
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    Its primary benefit is that the software is responding, not the community. It's standard, approved language, and there's no chance of the community being blamed.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:04
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    @RobertHarvey Right, I get that. But I care more about actually helping new users than I do about ass-covering. Let people "blame" us if they want, but let's aim to actually provide helpful feedback to users posting bad content, rather than feeding them some useless sterile copy just to to try and stop the angry feminists who provoked Jay's blog post and other critics of our community from being mad at us. If we're willing to make the experience for new users more hostile just to avoid some criticism, then we deserve to be criticised.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:09
  • @Robert Harvey: I have to admit I'm a little lost here. You're referring to the JIT feedback that's provided when a user's post gets downvoted, right? What about issues unique to each question? Though you did mention comments continuing to be used for requesting clarification... so yeah I'm a little lost.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:10
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    @BoltClock: I don't claim to have all the answers. Maybe some folks will post some answers here.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 17:19
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I would like to balance what I have written here first as I think the majority of respondents on SO are amazing for giving their time and knowledge to newbies like me and have been of tremendous help. I also get that there should be standards to the quality and style of the questions asked.

However, there is certainly an undercurrent here which is intimidating as a newbie when you have a question you want to ask and you feel it is not covered in google searches nor previous answers to similar sounding questions on SO. The worst is when you ask a question and someone comes along and marks it as a duplicate of something it is not, simply because it shares some key words, and diverts/disrupts any conversations you were having with people who were attempting to help and makes you feel bad about yourself for no good reason.

The notable example I remember for myself was asking how to prevent SQL injections in mySQL with multiple variables and someone marked it as dupe and pointed to a question which gave a solution to a different question.

The minority of users who do this kind of thing are intimidating and unwelcoming to new users and people who wish to make a start in the industry or learn something new. It sometimes feels as though some such people may get a kick out of condescending on other people.

By definition, you can't expect the same standards of newbies as people who have been posting for years and years. It's ignorant to presume that you should. If you are annoyed by certain questions, just ignore them and let people who are willing to work with the OP do so constructively and help the OP learn and improve without dumping on him/her.

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  • It is not I'm annoyed by such questions, it is just that I believe the duplicate will have your answer and often those will include fleshed out answers that have existed for quite some time. So it should be your quickest route to an answer to your issue, offered by the users with lot of knowledge. If you really believe your context is special, point that out in the question and ping the dupe hammer (you can @-mention them despite that their name won't auto-complete). They are happy to review and re-open hammer when they agree. I'm not dumping on any one, at least that is not how I view it.
    – rene
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 12:55
  • As I said, in my example, the question that was linked shared keywords with my question but was actually different. It showed arrogance and ignorance on the part of the person marking it as dupe. It also caused me to have to defend why I thought my question was unique (which it was), something the person who edited it would have realised if he'd actually made an effort and read the question he was linking before marking my Q as a dupe, it switched my context from one of learning and problem solving to one of politics. if it was a dupe fair enough... but it wasn't. Just unnecessary.
    – Shooresh
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:46
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    I think the big difference is that many new users come here expecting us to solve all their problems, while we expect users to have enough of a grounding to be able to take direction, and then go off and apply it. For your last two paragraphs, we have to expect the same quality standards from new users; we can't lower it just because you're new. We're more than happy to help, but new users have to be willing to want to learn. If all they want is an answer, then...I'm sorry. It's going to be rough on all sides, old and new alike.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:15
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    I'm honestly trying to learn from all this to become better at serving the users here and I want to give you and others lots of leeway but the words arrogance and ignorance are such strong words that the will to sort this out escaped me. I'm sorry.
    – rene
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:30
  • As an example, just see what @rene did here; they broke up your post to make it more readable. That's great and awesome for everybody. We're all trying to work together to make the internet more awesome, but I think new users have to want to make the internet better.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 15:33
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    @MisterGolzari Speaking as a PHP hammer wielder, the question you posted was indeed a duplicate of the other question. Understand that you can't simply contest a duplicate flag by saying This isn't a duplicate. If you had read the answers, there was one that covered the use case you were asking about. Even if you dispute that one, there's always other duplicates. In turn, that frustrates us, because you've assumed that the close voter in question was arrogant, when he was attempting to be helpful
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 17:52
  • If someone makes a presumption and is wrong in a situation like this, it comes across negatively. These may be emotive words but they reflect how someone on the receiving end feels - may be it is not the reality for the editor but that is how it comes across. Please don't take this personally, it is just feedback. Btw, I have no idea why the paragraph editing by @rene is being brought up, I have nothing to say about that and there's nothing wrong with making things more readable.
    – Shooresh
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 8:12
  • @Machavity - The linked question was not a duplicate... maybe one existed, but that's not what was linked. If a link to an actual duplicate was provided then as i said, fair enough, but the fact that it wasn't just indicates a cursory glance at something with similar words in the title perhaps but for which the solution was different and not transferable.
    – Shooresh
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 8:19
  • @fbueckert My second sentence.
    – Shooresh
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 8:24
  • You then go on to say, in your last paragraph, 'By definition, you can't expect the same standards of newbies as people who have been posting for years and years.' That's what I'm focusing on. Are we or aren't we holding them to the same standards?
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 4, 2018 at 11:47
  • @fbueckert The operative word is same. It is right to expect a standard but not to hold newbies to the same. When someone starts out as an apprentice engineer, you expect a certain standard from them... but are you going to judge them to the same standard as you hold your senior engineer? People cannot be reduced to a Boolean value.
    – Shooresh
    Commented May 5, 2018 at 12:55
  • And they don't need to be. But here at SE, quality rules all. We don't expect perfection, but we do expect a minimum level of effort from the asker. Who it is, new user, or old, doesn't matter at all. We are blind to that fact when it comes to quality.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 5, 2018 at 13:41
  • @fbueckert Maybe that is the problem at the crux of this whole issue. Blindness to user context. The only thing I would expect of a newbie is courtesy and a willingness to learn.
    – Shooresh
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 9:52
  • I think we can, and should, expect a bit more than just that; the entire SE platform is predicated on showing effort; the more you put in, the more you get out when you need help. And we need to keep those expectations, otherwise we get more askers like this example. We're more than willing to help, but it needs to be from a position of mutual respect. We're not free labour for you.
    – fbueckert
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 14:29
  • @fbueckert It is about finding a balance - I do agree with you that there's plenty of questions like that asked which are irredeemably bad. But my feeling is that those will continue to be asked regardless of the salient admin attitude here because they reflect a kind of impulsive, entitled personality that exists. Moreover it sounds like the mod/admin there was more than patient with the offender such that reasonable newbies would have no cause for complaint.
    – Shooresh
    Commented May 7, 2018 at 14:49

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