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I'm starting to play around with a new technology. It's a fairly current framework so there's not as many answerers as for C# or JavaScript. The consequence of this is that when I'm randomly voting up the good answers (well-thought, devoted, and authored with effort and consideration), I noticed a couple of names popping up quite frequently.

I'd very much like to upvote the answers, but I fear that I'm unintentionally raising sock-puppetry flag, hurting the devoted responders. I know others who got banned for serial voting when someone tried to provide positive feedback. At least one of them stopped contributing because he got so disappointed. I can't afford that to happen to this tag because my work relies on it big time.

One way to work around it is to provide bounty, but that's a shortsighted solution, very costly to me, and not applicable to each of the cases (+10 is well worth it but maybe not +50).

How should I handle the situation?

(Please keep in mind that we're talking about a relatively obscure tag with rather small number of specialists being able to help.)

For reference, so there's no question, it's specifically those two users: saurabh and Joe Clay that I worry about getting in trouble because of too-jumpy fraud rules.

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    If you are taking the time to read and understand the answers, you shouldn't have to worry. And generally speaking, you don't get suspended for being on the receiving end of serial upvoting, unless there is evidence that you were the one encouraging the serial voting, so in the off chance you do trip the serial voting algorithm, you won't cause anyone to get suspended. Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 12:12
  • @psubsee2003 That's an incorrect statement according to my experience. Or, possibly, the evidence is a rather vague concept. At any rate, ensuring me that this isn't a problem when I know for a fact that it's relatively common (based on the number of question about it combined with word-of-mouth) gives me little ease of mind. I'd much rather prefer to be able to upvote a question without the recipient being affected (except for the first or second time).
    – user1675891
    Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 12:18
  • Which do you think is incorrect? That you won't get the target suspended? Or that if you take the time to read the post, you won't trigger a serial voting flag? Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 12:20
  • @psubsee2003 I assumed it was implicitly obvious. I meant, of course, tt's incorrect that people won't get suspended on the receiving end (or voting end neither, for that matter). It did happen to people I know (as stated in my question, which I'm sure you read) and there are questions on that subject as well. Hence my suggestion/question.
    – user1675891
    Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 12:26
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    I never said it won't happen. What I said it is not a common occurrence and usually will not get someone suspended. For your friends that have been suspended, you probably do not have all of the facts. Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 12:32
  • @psubsee2003 The point of yours is that it's not a big deal and probably nothing to worry about. I do not agree and, in fact, a few years ago, there was this heated discussion at the office leading to guy A claiming that the penalty system wasn't reliable and guy B defending SO. So, A went on and started upvoting B which led to both being banned. I'm afraid that it might be you not having all the facts. I feel like we're shooing away a serious matter.
    – user1675891
    Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 20:25
  • How about upvoting only when you have actually used the content of the answer? Would that slow you down a bit? Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 20:45
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    @AndyJ Well that would unquestionably be voting fraud, and, given that you're on the same internet connection as the other person, would likely look to a mod as if it was just one person creating an account to upvote himself. It's possible something else happened, however, we can only speculate. But the point remains, some stranger just going around upvoting a user's posts isn't going to result in that user being punished, just the votes eliminated (and perhaps the voter being suspended). The recipient would only be suspended if there was evidence they were complicit in the voting.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 21:00
  • You should not be afraid of upvoting what is relevant, the only behaviour i would not respect is upvoting abusively for no reasons, just be carefull about that Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 21:27
  • @Servy I question the quality of the evidence as it in practice can be vague and not as evident as some might believe it to be. Being on the same IP is hardly a proof, in my opinion. I asked the person who got suspended for someone else's malicious voting (the B guy) and he refused to come forward because he's afraid of repercussions. Something about being banned and not getting meaningful response from the mods. That's not a conduct I'd like to see in our community.
    – user1675891
    Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 23:30
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    @AndyJ Of course I can't provide you with compelling evidence. I can only guess as to what may have happened. The user may well have been banned for reasons entirely unrelated to your votes, or the other "user" may actually be you, for all I know. The point, however, is that it's still a radically different situation than what you're describing in your question.
    – Servy
    Commented Dec 2, 2016 at 14:11
  • @Servy Point taken. Maybe I was too cautious. Lets hope for the best. Thank you.
    – user1675891
    Commented Dec 2, 2016 at 14:44

1 Answer 1

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For the reference, so there's no question marks, it's specifically those two users: saurabh and Joe Clay that I worry that they get in trouble because of too jumpy fraud rules.

There aren't any specific "rules" that will get someone suspended. Each suspension is a manual action of a moderator, and someone simply voting for someone else isn't enough to cause us to suspend. We have to see clear evidence that this is coordinated voting which the target is actively directing in order to defraud the voting system.

If you look at the voting coming in to any subject matter expert on the site, you'll see tons of votes from specific users by nature of their expertise. One of the first things we caution new moderators about is to recognize that this is a natural occurrence and not to see voting fraud where there is none. Eric Lippert and Jon Skeet aren't running giant voting rings.

The actions that get you suspended require a bit more than just some votes coming in. We're talking about things like three accounts named "John Smith" all at the same location voting 100% of the time for an account named "John Smith", a tight knot of four people at the same location all answering each others' posts and voting only for the people in that ring, etc.

By "I know others who got banned for serial voting", I think I know who you're talking about. What happened there went clearly beyond a few people in a subject area voting for each other. There was obvious coordination between a group at the same physical location, who knew each other and asked questions for each other to answer, and then targeted votes at each other. The evidence was pretty clear to multiple moderators that this was premeditated vote manipulation.

People sometimes seem to think that they can pull the equivalent of "SWATting" someone by intentionally serially upvoting an innocent person in an attempt to get them suspended, but that won't do anything. We weren't born yesterday.

That's not to say that there won't be false positives in the automated vote invalidation system. Rapid-fire strings of votes between two users can set off the system and cause those votes to be invalidated quietly. Moderators are not notified of this, and these invalidations won't lead to a suspension if there's nothing else to indicate fraudulent activity.

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    Eric and Jon may now feel validated to go start a massive voting ring, in full confidence that they've earned the moderating team's trust ;-)
    – TylerH
    Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 20:28
  • I know at least one case where a single dumbass proved his point by serial upvotes. It was long time ago but still. I feel that it easily gets side-tracked when this subject is brought up. I'm afraid that as long as we collectively keep repeating that the system works, there won't be good chance to remedy the actual issues. In any case, would it be possible to upvote an answer without adding rep to the replier (technically speaking, that is)?
    – user1675891
    Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 20:33
  • @AndyJ was that account already flagged as a "potential" sock puppet? Was it on the exact same IP as the other one? Because that is how it sounds, and if that is true (one of the accounts had previously been flagged as part of that voting ring Brad mentions), then yeah it's to be expected that the system kicked HARD, as it may have looked like that voting ring coming back.
    – Patrice
    Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 22:27
  • @Patrice It might be as you say, yes. I can't really tell because the exact algorithm is secret. But you're hitting the head of the nail here. It could be something like that. I've made sure that none of the two users lives in the same country as me, so the IPs should be different. Still, this issue shouldn't be an issue. But it is. :)
    – user1675891
    Commented Dec 1, 2016 at 23:35
  • I'm confused, did you come here for an answer @AndyJ or just to moan there isn't one? In this case I'm tempted to quote Hamlet - "doth protest too much, methinks".
    – user692942
    Commented Dec 4, 2016 at 10:03
  • @Lankymart Not sure which part is confusing exactly. I expressed a concern due to a flaw in the suspension system. (There's always the group believing that it isn't an issue, good for them, but it's an issue for those who do figure otherwise.) It got explained (sort of) and we landed in the answer above. The story for my part was over at that time. I didn't "moan" as far I can see but if it's your perception than I do apologize. I was, as stated above, simply concerned by a ban system that in my view is flawed (and frowned upon any attempt to be criticized). That's all I meant.
    – user1675891
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 12:37
  • @AndyJ I've been part of the Stack Overflow community for 5 years now and can honestly say the suspension system has never given me cause for concern. I've had votes roll back etc when I've been a bit over zealous but never unfairly in my opinion. I just learned to pick how I vote my carefully, I never blamed the "System".
    – user692942
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 12:54
  • @Lankymart I hear you. But that's your perception. I've been a member since 2012 and I have reasons to believe that the system is flawed. I know others too. We're talking about claims of "sufficient" or "obvious" indications whereas those are really not that well-stated. Mods not replying (although rarely but still) when pointed out to be at fault etc. And I do realize that there's a lot of meaningless whining when caught cheating (a lot of people do that). But using the trust that the system works to prove that isn't faulty is a logical fallacy and self-realizing prophecy.
    – user1675891
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 13:08
  • @AndyJ you obviously have a strong opinion but like I said I've seen no evidence to support it over my time here. If you don't follow voting behaviour patterns that the system checks for then you haven't got a problem. The mods are usually fairly transparent about the behaviours that trigger suspension, it isn't rocket science. I think Brads explanation is pretty succinct to be honest.
    – user692942
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 13:12
  • @Lankymart Just to be extra clear on my point. I'm not questioning the system as such. And I do accept that some flawness is allowed to make the whole efficiently smooth to work with (we can't have a gazillion idiots appeal, reappeal etc.). The only statement I oppose and find provably wrong is that the system isn't flawed. Many users seem to convey the message of the system being right and you as a suspended user to be absolutely at fault. That's so wrong... :)
    – user1675891
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 13:13
  • @Lankymart One of my colleagues has pointed out to a mod that his motivation wasn't correct. He didn't nag about being un-suspended. He just pointed out the incorrect statement. No reply. When he asked about the time for reply, there was an infected shooshing. Now, he's too afraid to mention it because he's afraid of being on some watch list. I believe SO would be a better place if users were more open to the idea of its imperfections (which are very few and limtied).
    – user1675891
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 13:16
  • @AndyJ I don't think that is being said, just quoting Brad above "That's not to say that there won't be false positives in the automated vote invalidation system.".
    – user692942
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 13:16
  • @Lankymart I've seen that. If you read the whole answer, though, that statement appears to be more of a disclaimer while the main point is something totally different. I'm not saying she's ugly but... Then, well, I haven't said that she's unattractive...
    – user1675891
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 13:19
  • @AndyJ so this friend reached out to the mods how? Not to mention that Brad states that various mods have looked at this particular case (if it's the same one) and it was clear "There was obvious coordination between a group at the same physical location, who knew each other and asked questions for each other to answer, and then targeted votes at each other.", so that's not the automated system that mods making informed decisions.
    – user692942
    Commented Dec 5, 2016 at 13:19
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    Regarding my and Jon's secret voting ring: did you see the big ninja parade downtown last week? Me neither; that's how good they are! Commented Dec 17, 2016 at 17:25

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