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A user is currently mass-editing a new tag into questions: . Here is one of the suggested edits (which has already been rejected).

For me this tag seems to be too specific to make sense to attach it to existing questions. If that tag would be acceptable, then it would seem legit to introduce a tag for every specific matrix that has a name, e.g. , , , etc.

Is it acceptable if such highly specific tags are created? If not, what can be done in this case?

Edit: The question: Mass editing in <kbd> tags proposed as duplicate might be related, but I think that HTML tags that are edited into posts are different from tags that are attached to questions. HTML tags are only markup, while the other tags are meant to organize posts on SO.

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  • IIRC, a custom flag on one of their posts/edits to get a mod's attention is the preferred action.
    – BSMP
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 18:14
  • 9
    @BSMP: Maybe related, but adding HTML tags into posts and attaching tags to questions seems a bit different to me. HTML tags are only markup, while the other tags are meant to organize posts on SO.
    – honk
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 18:20
  • 6
    @honk I also think that tag isn't acceptable. There's not even a reasonable tag wiki info. There are just 17 questions tagged so far, so burinating the tag should be an easy job. Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 18:31
  • 2
    @Drew: You are hitting the right point: Tags only make sense if the number of tags is much lower than the number of questions. Otherwise you could also do a full-text search. So, how many tags make sense? Assume that you have 1000 xxx-matrix tags. If you then enter 'matrix' into the tag line, then you might need to wade through pages to find the correct tag. Of course I'm overstating the problem here, but the question is: How specific should tags be so that they still make sense?
    – honk
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:02
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    @Drew: I came to chat in the first place, directly after spotting those edits. The first suggestion after some time was: "I would start a meta discussion..." This is why I asked here...
    – honk
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:13
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    I've pinged the editor on it. I've also removed those tags as well as did some light editing on questions that needed it. It may also be worth considering what the cut-off for questions with a mathematical function should be, per this discussion.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:20
  • 4
    Hi everyone. I'm so disappointed at Stackoverflow moderation. Thanks to @Makoto for letting me know what's going on here. All I wanted to do was helping people and stackoverflow users! My work contains a lot of mathematical optimization stuff. I know that those tags are very important for people like me.
    – Amir
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:31
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    I spent a lottttttt of time on finding questions having something to do with Jacobian matrix and now it's all ruined. Why did you guys do this?
    – Amir
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:32
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    @Amir no offense, but you should use google or the SO search engine for finding what interests you. Creating tags for things that are irrelevant to the vast majority of programmers here is not helpful. Otherwise I completely agree that you should've been informed about this procedure at the very beginning. Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:34
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    @Amir If you think that the tag should be allowed, post an answer with your reasoning and let everyone consider it. Complaining in the comments is not the way to go about this.
    – beaker
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:35
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    @Amir don't be disappointed, your contributions are always welcome. It just has to be sorted out whether the Community agrees with you (in this case, probably not). But I advise you to heed @beaker's suggestion and explain your intentions. You can get valuable feedback on that. I know it doesn't help at all that you've just found yourself in the middle of this counter-action to your tagging, and you feel violated despite your best intentions. Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:39
  • 2
    Amir, write that in an Answer below
    – Drew
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:44
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    @Amir that is a different question altogether. Because some crap tags are around, doesn't mean you can/should create one. You should bring up this notion in an answer, levenberg-marquardt and friends could as easily be removed, if it's decided. Also, here's a blog post of why meta-tags are considered bad, your mileage may vary about whether these are meta-tags. Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:45
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    @Amir “Jacobian matrix is a very important thing in mathematics” – And I think that’s the problem. It’s more a mathematical or theoretical computer science thing than something closely related to programming (and as such SO).
    – poke
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:53
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    @Amir I’m just saying that just because you can apply an algorithm, a method or a technique with programming, that doesn’t mean that it’s exactly a programming topic, and even less likely requires its own tags. With currently 212 questions, it doesn’t seem such a big topic on SO and is often paired with tags like matrix or algorithm or matlab. I think that covers the link well enough: It’s just an application of maths. And for the actual maths, you can go to math.SE (which actually has over 1000 questions about jacobian matrices—a tag there would make more sense).
    – poke
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 20:01

5 Answers 5

-7

This is a meta tag and does not belong on SO. Quoting from that post there are two ways to see if something is a meta tag:

  1. If the tag can't work as the only tag on a question, it's probably a meta-tag.
  2. If the tag commonly means different things to different people, it's probably a meta-tag

And I believe it fails test #1. If it is the only tag, then it isn't very useful. If it is paired with, say Java, then you can attract the right people who can help. They can help you debug your implementation or whatever. Without it, all you can see with that information is that it is a math problem. Which probably belongs on Math.SE, not SO.

Just because you can apply something from some other field doesn't automatically make it a good candidate for a tag. Should every art style have a tag because someone wants to replicate it in their own art program? Should every engineering or science principle have a tag because simulators exist? Do we need a pythagorian-theorum tag? Should ASCII-art and Trogdor tags be a thing? (If so, I have plans...)

To more directly address the question about what to do, first see if it passes or fails the meta tag test. Unless you are 100% certain of your findings there, check with Meta or raise a mod flag.

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    If this is the case (I'm not arguing either way), a huge bunch of low-traffic math tags should also be burninated. Like sieve, sieve-of-eratosthenes, and the like (I'm sure there are a lot of others). Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 20:25
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    @AndrasDeak probably. Whether those low-traffic tags are worth the effort to burninate is separate consideration.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 20:25
  • @AndrasDeak But there you're talking about specific algorithms.
    – beaker
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 20:26
  • @beaker I also tend to agree that a specific algorithm conveys a bit more information. But there's still a bit of subjectivity to #1 of the meta-tag-test questionnare, at least in this respect (and probably others as well). I'm just saying that I understand why Amir is confused/taken aback. Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 20:29
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    While I agree that jacobian-matrix isn't appropriate, labeling it a meta-tag completely misses the point. A meta-tag is an attempt to label the question itself, giving potential searchers no indication what it's about. This one is just off-topic.
    – Alan Moore
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 22:59
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    These "tests" are for correlation, and require closer inspection. They do not in any way define what meta tags are. jacobian-matrix is not a meta-tag.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 14:19
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    "it is a math problem. Which probably belongs on Math.SE, not SO." just like all the graph-theory and combinatorics problems I see are just math problems, I suppose. Writing a program to take a derivative or construct a Jacobian is not some esoteric task, even if they don't yet teach it in the standard CS curriculum ... Would you also burninate the mathematical-optimization tag?
    – Frank
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 18:03
  • Whow. Great discussion here! And even though it is highly controversial, I still have the feeling that we don't really need the tag in question. Nevertheless, it was hard to nominate the most helpful answer. But the green check mark thighy goes to you, because you addressed my question most directly. Anyway, thank you to all who provided answers and comments.
    – honk
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 18:54
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    This tag is nothing like the "meta tags" described in that post. Not even close. There might be reasons not to support it as a tag, but that's a poor one. Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 2:43
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    Point 1 is not a definitive test for a meta tag the clue is in the quote "it's probably a meta tag" - if it fails that then it could be a meta tag or it could be off topic. if there are no other on-topic tags then it could be an indicator that this should be moved and actually specific tags like this could be helpful for moderators when deciding if a question is on or off topic
    – br3w5
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 21:53
59

I'm going to take a contrarian view here:

is a valid tag. It's not ambiguous (everyone who sees it thinks of exactly the same definition), and it's at least somewhat possible for people to be expert in calculating and manipulating Jacobian matrices (there is a world of numeric accuracy concerns around calculation of derivatives) and therefore want to put such a tag on their favorites list... or be bored to death by beginning MATLAB students asking the same Jacobian matrix problem over and over and want to ignore it.

At the same time, it isn't a mega-important classification. We don't need a way to find all questions somewhat linked to Jacobians. If the question asker didn't feel that was the core issue he was struggling with, or something that defines the group of experts who could help answer, then it isn't useful to add that tag to that question.

Therefore, please:

  1. No mass-addition of or or .
  2. No burnination of these perfectly valid tags either.

Of course, the guidance on suggested edits remains:

  1. When you edit-bump a post, do your best to fix as many issues as possible.

This by itself rules out mass sprees of identical edits... because the other corrections needed will vary significantly between posts.

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    The problem with accepting jacobian-matrix as a tag is, that there are thousands of mathematical/numerical methods, matrices, etc that are then allowed to have their own tag! Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 15:46
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    @ander that is correct and it is not a problem
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:06
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    Your second paragraph refers to a mistaken premise, I think; the tag didn't exist before Amir started adding it, so possibly all previous askers of Jacobian-related questions probably weren't able to add it to begin with. The point being that we can't reliably say previous question askers didn't feel the tag was appropriate, because it simply wasn't an option. Even if they had the requisite reputation, they might not be familiar with the method of adding a new tag. I agree with your conclusions, though.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:08
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    @tylerh 1 rep is enough to leave a request, either as comment or in the question, for a higher user to edit it in.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:10
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    @BenVoigt Do you think the average 1-rep user know what it takes to create a tag?
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:17
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    @TylerH: Yes, considering it's shown in a red popup when they try and fail. Also, are you supposing that not a single one of the edits was suggested to a question where the posted did have enough reputation?
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:20
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    @TylerH: FWIW, look at revision 4 here: codereview.stackexchange.com/posts/1695/revisions
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 16:23
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    As much as I hate a strawman argument... "Homework is a valid tag. It's not ambiguous (everyone who sees it thinks of exactly the same definition), and it's at least somewhat possible for people to be expert in solving homework problems." Maybe, just maybe, they're meta tags.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 20:33
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    @Makoto: Nope, "homework" doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. It truly is a meta tag. jacobian-matrix is not a meta-tag. I didn't explain why it's not a meta-tag, because it follows directly from the meaning of "meta". The only people having trouble are the ones applying some arbitrary rule intended to aid in the identification of meta tags, not to define them, in lieu of knowing what "meta" means.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 20:36
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    Fair enough. Let's take it in another direction, then: would a question asking about Jacobian matrices make sense on Stack Overflow, and if so, under what guise? In the answer I linked to prior, I discussed that there is the possibility of these questions being available in math software like R, MATLAB, or Mathematica. It's also possible that someone could ask about this matrix as if they're attempting to implement it. At that point, what value of this particular tag (or any Math-related tag) actually add?
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 20:41
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    @Makoto: That information has been in my answer since the beginning, and I just wrote one on the other question as well.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 20:45
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    I think that the main point I'm taking umbrage with here is that you still believe these tags to be "perfectly valid". No question here tagged exclusively with that is going to be valid here; at best, it'll be closed as off-topic and askers would get redirected to Math.SE.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 20:47
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    @Makoto: There's not a tag on this site that couldn't be applied to an off-topic question. "Can't be used exclusively" is not a defining characteristic of a meta tag, or even a bad tag. It's just correlated. And I don't think I even believe that "can't be used exclusively" is even true. Good questions are surely possible that are tagged only "floating-point" and "jacobian matrix", and neither of those tags is software-specific, so how is one "good" and the other "bad".
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 20:53
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    @Makoto: A majority of software engineers being bad at math does not mean that math software is not interesting. A majority of software engineers are bad at functional programming too, You brought up the straw man, so try "If you can find a question tagged monads that isn't filled with a deluge of software engineers sounding puzzled"... Some concepts are not easy. That makes them more valuable for tagging, not less.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 21:00
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    @Makoto: Absolutely monads is a valid concept for tagging. I'm just using it to make the point that being well-understood by most programmers is not a prerequisite for a good tag.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 21:03
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Adding a very specific tag would only be valuable if the very specific tag could also fulfill its concrete duties as a tag.

That is, I'd be okay with a specific tag if and only if:

  • It supported a class of on-topic questions for Stack Overflow,
  • It described a specific and exact subject or problem, and
  • It did not require any other tags to support itself to avoid the meta tag problem

With that said, fails two out of three.

  • Questions that are just about the Jacobian matrix have a better home on Math.SE than here, since they're not about a specific software engineering problem.

  • If you're asking about the Jacobian matrix, invariably you need to include information about your approach. However, this is not crystal clear; you may either be using Mathematica, MATLAB, R, or hand-writing your solution.

    In the former two cases, just use the software that you're using and describe what problem it is you're having with it. In the latter case, it certainly describes what you're trying to solve, but just because you're writing a Jacobian matrix in JavaScript doesn't mean that anyone that knows what a Jacobian matrix is would be of any help to you.

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    "...writing a Jacobian matrix in JavaScript doesn't mean that anyone that knows what a Jacobian matrix is would be of any help to you" Why not? It certainly helps to know what a Jacobian matrix is in order to write a Jacobian matrix in any language. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 12:30
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    @Trilarion that doesn't mean that they will know how to answer your question. Remember, tags are to target potential answerers.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 12:43
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    @Braiam You mean anyone can implement a Jacobian matrix in JavaScript even if he has no knowledge about Jacobian matrices? To me tags are just classifications, I don't require strictly that every tag can completely stand on its own. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 12:48
  • @Trilarion If he knows how to represent matrices and calculate partial derivatives, yes. You don't even need to know what a Jacobian matrix is, in fact, I know how to make them after reading WP article and I've never seen one in my life.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 13:04
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    @Braiam The Jacobian is just the matrix of all partial derivatives (Jij=dfi/dxj as it says in Wikipedia). This is indeed not a big business. It just happens that it has a special name and some people will recognize it more easily. I have seen some in my life and I guess now that you are mostly right. The tag doesn't add much and would be used only rarely. We don't need it. Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 13:31
  • Those are three very arbitrary requirements. Do most tags meet them? Does [leaflet] "describe a specific and exact problem"? Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 2:45
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    @SteveBennett: Let's be fair here: picking a random tag and trying to use it to shore up a tag in dispute isn't all that likely to work well, because, if it's sufficiently similar to be interesting in a debate, chances are pretty good it's also a candidate for burnination. SO has a lot of bad tags. Not as high a proportion as ELL, but still a lot. Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 2:52
  • Ok, so address my main point: the three criteria proposed here are totally arbitrary. Why should we care whether a given tag meets them? Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 3:14
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    @SteveBennett: At the bare minimum, if the tag is about something off-topic for a site, then where those types of questions should exist should be brought up. Further, these requirements were derived from existing, good tags here. If we have tags that are irrelevant and useless, then they're cluttering up the site and preventing others from getting their questions in front of experts.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 5:28
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    @Trilarion i read the javascript comment as meaning that someone could help solve a javascript specific problem (that so happened to involve a jacobian matrix) without knowing what a jacobian matrix is and vice versa, therefore making the tag confusing and potentially useless
    – br3w5
    Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 21:58
4

I know that your intention is to help the community, but the Jacobian matrix is not something that should be ignored this way and it's not a specific function. It's something used worldwide extensively by almost any industry and engineering-related matter that has something to do with calculus. If does not deserve to be on Stack Overflow, please look at the tag . Why should this tag exist? is an extremely narrowed-down subject in optimization and mathematics. I think someone should come up with a more reasonable answer.

I think the only reason this discussion was created is because I created the tag and decided to reorganize the questions related to . This created a wave of interest on what I'm doing.

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  • 12
    Note that levenberg-marquardt has only 46 questions and no tag wiki, with a very short excerpt. It is easily eligible for burnination, just like your tag. Also, there are many opinions, and only discussion will lead to a mutually satisfactory solution. This is why we're pushing you to express your opinion and concerns in an answer. Enumerating your reasons for why this tag should exist can make others provide their own pros and cons. Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:47
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    No doubt, there are many "sub-optimal" tags on SO. But that shouldn't be a reason to add more of them (sorry to say so). Every matrix that has a name seems to be quite important. If we would add a tag for all of them, then we would end up with hundreds of matrix tags, I guess...
    – honk
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:48
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    It's also worth pointing out that this was only caught by the three users who initially noticed it (Honk, Mogsdad, and myself) because you're not yet at 2,000 reputation, so your edits are placed in the review queue. Had you been above 2,000 reputation, it's likely that we wouldn't have been made aware. In this case I think the system is working as intended; to catch systemic edits that are contentious.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:49
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    @Amir I don't think anyone's saying that Jacobians are unimportant, but rather that a tag on SO is uncalled for. Why can't you search for "Jacobian" in questions/answers? Why won't that be useful? Also: areas like [image-processing] are different in the sense that questions probably don't have "image-processing" in them. However, you can only talk about Jacobians by saying "Jacobian". This is a minor technical detail, but it implies that searching for this term should be a worst-case substitute if your tag remains dead. Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:51
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    @Amir At least you should have created a reasonable tag-info description that clearly describes how jacobian-matrix differs from the usual matrices, including some common references that people can learn from. Just providing a new tag isn't really helpful. Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:58
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    It seems like the interesting question is whether someone would say "I want to follow/answer questions about Jacobian matrices."
    – Casey
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:58
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    There are almost 600 Jacobians on the stack. About 150 with matlab. I am in full favor of jacobian-matrix. It is time for it to have a home. Easily found. In the same way I appreciated the easy ways to find (not follow) Diffie-Hellman and bouncycastle
    – Drew
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 19:59
  • 2
    The more I read your rationale, the more this tag sounds like a meta tag. This is why I've been removing them; a question simply tagged with jacobian-matrix can't survive on Stack Overflow by itself. It's at best off-topic and at worst deeply flawed.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 20:02
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    @Amir "It's been rejected two times and I gave up on it!!!", I suggest bringing such issues to meta, that's most helpful to everyone involved. Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 20:02
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    @Amir If your suggested edits are getting rejected, there's a reason.
    – beaker
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 20:03
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    @Amir I didn't reject it. I'm not going to speak for anybody else. I'm not even going to look at the suggested edit to see if I agree or disagree. If you disagree with the rejection, post a question here on meta, present your case, and discuss it.
    – beaker
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 20:06
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    @Amir: "I had only less than 80 rejects and more than 4xx approved edits. Now I have about 140 rejects ... So disappointed" Let that be a lesson to you then: stop spree-editing. Edit a few at a time, not dozens in one day. Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 20:10
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    I think the worst part is that none of the post's content is actually being fixed in the process. You're just adding the tag! That may be what I'm taking the most umbrage to here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 18, 2016 at 20:28
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    Yesterday's spree was hessian-matrix, today it's jacobian-matrix
    – Tas
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 0:49
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    @Amir: 80 rejections and 4xx accepted is a terrible ratio. People who are doing it right have acceptance rate well above 95%.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jan 19, 2016 at 14:31
2

The term "Jacobian matrix" just denotes a mathematical concept like many others. Computer science and programming uses a lot of mathematics. The tag surely has the potential to attract a few tens or even a couple of hundred questions on StackOverflow. In this regard it is maybe similar to a quite obscure file format.

While it cannot stand on its own so well (because StackOverflow is not a pure math site) it can describe a subclass of problems rather well, that is the subclass of "implementating and/or using the Jacobian matrix efficiently in a specific language".

So I don't see that it has to go but also I don't see that it has to stay (because of low expected interest anyway). It's a border case.

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