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Hi guys how are you (*wink*)

Salutations, greeting, "thanks", and signatures in questions and answers are discouraged by community consensus. A blog post by Jon Skeet that is linked to on the help center specifically discourages these in posts.

We also discourage mass suggested trivial edits to avoid overloading the review queues. The question is - is mass editing by users with 2K - Edit privilege acceptable to correct these kinds of mistakes, assuming the edit is only to fix these trivial issues?

For example, if a user wanted to go find all the posts that had "Thanks in advance" at the bottom of the post and remove that text, should we discourage that user from doing so? Why or why not?

Thanks in advance (*wink*)

Please vote to reopen this question because: We find it ironic - or hilarious - that two suggestions for duplicates that have received an equal number of votes each have the opposite implication for this post. Clearly neither one actually is a duplicate of this question. Anyway, both questions represent the status quo of SO (current rules) while this one is clearly marked as a discussion by tag while asking should we discourage that user from doing so? Why or why not?. Which is about how SO should work, as opposed to about how it is working today.

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  • I think the question is good, but the wording is a little off. Mind if I massively reword your post?
    – mason
    Commented Dec 1, 2015 at 22:42
  • @mason not at all go ahead and reword it to your linking. You have put a lot of good thought into this on the previous discussion. Also write a more concise title if you think of one...
    – C.O.
    Commented Dec 1, 2015 at 22:43
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    This question is not Meta enough; it lacks a "Hi guys how are you" in the beginning and a "thanks in advance" at the end. THIS CANNOT STAND
    – Pekka
    Commented Dec 1, 2015 at 22:56
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    @Pekka 웃 That can be helped...
    – C.O.
    Commented Dec 1, 2015 at 22:57
  • I use the front page as my primary source of finding questions to answer. It's tailored to my interests through my favorited tags, and is using the default sort of "active", and i've never noticed any seral edits happen on that front page. whether that means i've just been lucky or not, I disagree that "flooding the front page" is as big of a problem as people often make it out to be. I do occasionally see a year old post pop up, but never a flurry of them. but... i certainly would be annoyed if that were to happen.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 1, 2015 at 22:58
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    @Pekka 웃 I don't view this is as a duplicate to the question linked to. See edit.
    – C.O.
    Commented Dec 1, 2015 at 23:08
  • Related MSO: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2950/…
    – cimmanon
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:22
  • @cimmanon both resources just say that the fluff should be removed. I don't see them as duplicates because there are some people saying only a little fluff should be removed and not a lot. To discuss why in principle to disallow to remove a lot of fluff in one go if anyone cares to is the purpose of this question.
    – C.O.
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:43
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    C.O. Agreed, I don't think is a duplicate of those. But I do think that it's valuable for @cimmanon to find those for us, as they help provide some context and I appreciate that.
    – mason
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:44
  • @cimmanon Indeed thanks for linking to the resources. I just put them into perspective as the question is one vote short of being closed - yet again.
    – C.O.
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:45
  • Oh and just because one would allow mass removal of fluff folks probably wouln't come running to actually do the chore ;-)
    – C.O.
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:47
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    I find it ironic that two suggestions for duplicates that have received an equal number of votes each have the opposite implication for this post. Clearly this isn't actually a duplicate of those.
    – mason
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:49
  • @mason Ironic or hilarious - can't decide.
    – C.O.
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:51
  • @HaveNoDisplayName Please review the alleged duplicate question(s) and find that they fall shor on answering this one.
    – C.O.
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:58
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    @C.O. You've failed to address why this isn't a duplicate of either question. The fact that 2 people voted for one and 3 people voted for the other is not an indication that neither is an appropriate dupe target. Both are applicable here (don't make too many edits on old at once, and removing fluff should be done).
    – cimmanon
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 3:20

3 Answers 3

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...[I]f a user wanted to go find all the posts that had "Thanks in advance" at the bottom of the post and remove that text, should we discourage that user from doing so? Why or why not?

Yes, for several reasons:

  • Edits on terrible content are not good edits. If the question was wildly off-topic or nonsensical, the edit has done it no favors. You'd effectively polished a turd, and no one wants that.

  • Just removing that content doesn't make sense if there are other things that can or should be improved with those edits.

  • Having 2K rep means you're trusted to make edits that are allegedly trivial, like code formatting or someone forgetting to capitalize "I". Doing mass edits to remove one problem from a question/answer that has potentially many betrays that trust.

There are plenty of other reasons, but this mostly strikes at the core of why I wouldn't like someone doing that. If you're going to edit, make it count. Of course, if you just so happen upon the question, editing it to make it better is perfectly acceptable. Just don't go on a wild goose chase to fix just one thing.

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    For the purposes of discussion, let's assume a post is not a turd. Let's assume it would be perfect, and the only thing holding it back is fluff. Removing that fluff makes it better. Therefore removing fluff from a lot of posts make a lot of posts better, even if only by a little bit each.
    – mason
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:42
  • @mason: Removing fluff from "How do I build a forum?"-type questions doesn't make the question better. That's the main point I was driving at. I'm also leery to say that finding those questions en masse is constructive, since there are a lot of them, and just editing that out doesn't automatically make it better. If the process were more of one that took time and was a bit more careful, I doubt I'd be as critical of it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 3:02
  • Polishing turds can be considered useless, sure. Let's say you limited your mass edit to only those that had a positive vote count. It does automatically make it better to remove fluff. It may not be enough to change a turd into a valuable post, but it does make the turd better.
    – mason
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 3:05
  • @mason: You presume that a positive vote count makes a question automatically good, when that's not always the case. Again, if a question really doesn't belong here, why pay it lip service by editing it? Also, the "mass edit" part is what really strikes a nerve here. It's like you're on a hunt explicitly for that term, but it still feels like it ignores the other problems with the post.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 3:09
  • No, I'm not presuming that it makes it automatically good. I'm presuming that it's a quick and easy (but not perfect) way to filter to ensure I do less turd polishing and more improvement of good posts. If we agree that removing fluff improves a post, then we should have no problem allowing people to do that. Your issue with mass editing it seems contrived. Just because someone mass edits posts to remove fluff doesn't mean that it will prevent other people from doing more substantial edits. In fact, it will take that person less time because now that person doesn't have to remove the fluff.
    – mason
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 3:11
  • @mason: My rationale doesn't feel contrived. The whole thought process I've ever had and shared is that edits should be substantial. So far, you've not convinced me that the mass edits have been substantial enough to let lie. Why don't we take an example from earlier for context? How does removing that fluff make this question better?
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 3:20
  • I don't agree that an edit from a 2K user should be substantial. If it makes the post better, then let them do it (assuming they have 2K rep). The particular edit you linked to was a suggested edit, and I think I'm with you on that we should reject trivial suggested edits. But assuming a 2K rep user made that edit, it removes fluff from the post, doesn't waste my time with reading the extraneous content, and teaches the poster that they shouldn't include fluff in their posts.
    – mason
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 3:23
  • @mason: Right. It seems that we have incompatible views on edits, which might explain a lot of the friction here. But seriously, there's no way you can convince me that the edit I've linked to would even be okay for a 2K rep person to do, since they didn't remove all of the fluff, and left some cleanup work to do.
    – Makoto
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 3:25
  • I would have made that edit myself had I seen the question. Why do you believe it's necessary to fix all problems in a single edit? Making an edit doesn't prevent future edits from being made. And would you have rolled that edit back, despite the consensus saying fluff in posts is bad and we should remove it?
    – mason
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 3:26
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If you happen upon a post organically (i.e. via a Google Search), and the chaff is there, and you have 2000 reputation or above, then by all means, feel free to remove it.

Actively looking for chaff and systematically editing it out of every post you find it in is a waste of everyone's time and energy, in my opinion. There is always going to be more chaff than any one person (or ten, or a hundred) can handle. In general, it's better if everyone with editing privileges does just a little, than it is for a few people to do a lot (for many reasons).

So just do your part and leave the campground cleaner than you found it. Nobody expects you to clean up the entire forest.

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  • 3
    Your agument against doing it isn't based on whether it's right or wrong. You're saying that it's not a productive use of time. I disagree. I can contribute on SO as much or as little as I want. Just because I choose to make mass edits doesn't prevent me from contributing in other ways too, and doesn't actually subtract from that time. I could always be unproductive and play videogames if I wanted to rather than contribute to SO, but if I choose to contribute in that way, why tell me not to? As long as I'm not hurting things, we shouldn't discourage it.
    – mason
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:28
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    Because edits have side-effects; they can cause a post to be bumped, thrown into a review queue, etc. For reasons which should be apparent to you if you cogitate about it a little, these kinds of effects work much better if you spread them out over a larger group of users. My characterization of this as "a waste of time" is borne of years of experience as a moderator; if you're being flooded with crap, sometimes it's better to try and figure out how to turn the faucet off than it is to continue bailing.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:30
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    You're letting the system that we've constructed prevent people from making contributions if your argument against is based on "it will be a lot of work to review". If you think it will overwhelm the review system, I'd much rather change the review system rather than discourage people from improving content.
    – mason
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:32
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    I've always seen that argument, yet I've never actually seen people actually whinnying about it unless they are bad edits. And frankly, robo-reviewers is an inexhaustible resource we have.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:32
  • I see you've entirely missed the point.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:32
  • Have I missed the point? Your point is that it would be a lot of work to review such a large number of edits right? If that's not your point, what is it?
    – mason
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:33
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    To put it another way, the purpose of Stack Overflow is to give people a way to get answers to their questions, not provide new ways for people to sweep infinitely long floors.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:33
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    @RobertHarvey And I think the most efficient way to get people answers is to improve the existing content. You may not agree on that part, but we both agree that a post is better with fluff removed than with it left in right?
    – mason
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:35
  • Sure, but people saying "hope this helps" is not preventing people from getting their answers. Just sayin'. Are you sure you wouldn't rather spend the time learning another programming language instead?
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:35
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    @RobertHarvey It certainly slows me down if I have to slog through a lot of fluff to find an actual question. I believe quite a few people agree. It may be minor, but it's still an improvement to the content, and we should encourage improvement. How I choose to use my time is up to me. If the way I want to contribute is by removing fluff, and you tell me I'm not allowed to do that, perhaps I'm just going to go play videogames instead of doing something else constructive.
    – mason
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 2:37
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Once the user has reached 2K reputation and earned the Edit Privilege, then they should feel free to make such mass edits as long as they're consistent with the rules and community consensus. If someone is unclear about what the rules or consensus is, then they should check with meta prior to embarking on a mass edit.

The reasons against that have been brought up to boil down to these points, which I will address:

Every time we edit a post, the post jumps to the top of the Active list. Some people like to use the Active list as a way to review post quality, and this can hinder them by overloading the list with a lot of simple edits.

I personally don't bother using the Active list, because I don't care about it anyways. But this is an issue I believe we can work around. Some potential workarounds:

  • Stop 3rd party edits from bumping posts
  • Stop 3rd party edits from bumping posts and create a review queue where we can approve or reject edits. Not all edits should show up. Let's say a user has 2K reputation. Perhaps there is a 75% chance that their edit will show up in this review queue. Let's say a user has 5K reputation, we trust them a bit more so let's assign a 25% chance that their reviews will show up in the queue. For users over 10K, we can assume they know what they're doing and maybe we'll only assign a 1% chance that their edit will show up in the queue.
  • Only allow edits from low reputation users to bump the Active list.
  • Assign an arbitrary number of characters that must be edited (let's say 30) prior to it allowing a post to be dumped to the top.

My bottom line is that once a user reaches a certain level of reputation, we should trust the to make positive edits without the need to watch over their shoulder unless they give us reason to believe otherwise.

Removing fluff does not improve posts

Sorry, I disagree. Removing fluff makes it easier to focus on the question. And that appears to be the community consensus.

Spending time to do mass edits to remove fluff is a waste of time

Perhaps it's not time well spent. Perhaps we should learn Mandarin or learn to salsa dance instead of removing fluff from posts. But we obviously think fluff should be removed. I don't think it's the job of StackOverflow to dictate how your time should be spent. Time spent removing fluff doesn't necessarily compete with time you can spend doing other site maintenance tasks. If we believe it's worth it to do singly, we should believe it's worth it to do in mass.

Edits must be substantial

Why, other than the Active list churning issue which I've already addressed. We've agreed that removing fluff should be done. And an edit to remove fluff doesn't prevent a later edit that could be more substantial. It actually allows whoever does the later edit to focus on the bigger problems rather than removing the fluff.


What is really boils to to me is "if the edit is good, then it belongs".

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    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Dec 2, 2015 at 4:19

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