5

After reading this question I thought of about 3-4 solutions within seconds. It's a rather easy to solve problem for anyone slightly experienced with Python.

It even got 6 different answers within 3 minutes.

This question lacks research effort which is a perfectly valid reason to downvote especially when it's a very easy to solve problem.

However, the audit thinks that I should STOP! Look and Listen!

There are many excellent questions that show no research and they shouldn't be downvoted. They tend to be more complex than this question though.

Question:

  • Is this audit good at its job?
  • How can I avoid failing audits on way too simple questions with 0 research?

Edit:
By "too easy to solve", I imply that, since it's trivial to solve, it wouldn't be of no use to future visitors.

2
  • 2
    It's true that this question lacks research effort. Due to the simplicity of the question I would not close/downvote it though. It is a clear question and it is fairly easy to answer. I myself only apply the lack of research reasoning to broader questions that require more verbose answers.
    – cel
    Commented Oct 24, 2015 at 9:33

3 Answers 3

25

This is a perfectly valid and useful beginner question. Questions don't have to be hard or esoteric in order to be good — in fact, some of the most popular and highly upvoted questions on SO are also the most trivial, such as:

Questions like these are extremely useful for beginners — and, let's face it, every one of us was a beginner at some point. Indeed, as programming is far from a dying art, the beginners still outnumber the experts by a large margin, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

For what it's worth, as a dabbling Python programmer myself, I would not have been able to answer the question you linked to off the top of my head.* Sure, I could've looked it up in the docs or Googled for it — but typically, the most useful Google results for such searches tend to be SO questions just like this!


That said, new questions like this are quite often duplicates — SO has been around a while, and most of the common, easy and obvious questions have already been asked in some form by now. Just with a bit of Googling, I found:

Not all of those are exact duplicates, but they're all variants of the same basic question, and the all have the same general answer ("use list comprehension"; although there are some rather interesting alternatives buried in some of the answers, like using operator.itemgetter as suggested here). Ideally, most of those should probably be closed as duplicates of a single canonical question, possibly this one (first in the list above), but even as they are, they're all still useful sources of information.

Anyway, it's worth emphasizing that a duplicate question is not a bad question — it just happens to have already been asked before. Sure, maybe the poster of the dupe could've searched a bit more and found the earlier question on their own, but it's also possible that the older question just didn't happen to contain the keywords they were searching for. It's actually a good thing to have such duplicates, since, even if closed, they can serve as signposts to direct other people to the right place to find the answer.

If you come across a new question that looks "so simple that it must surely have been asked before", do try a quick search to see if you can find a good duplicate. (In review, to avoid audit mishaps, do also check that the duplicate you found isn't actually the same question.) Finding duplicates not only keeps SO tidy and focused, but it also helps the asker by quickly pointing them to a bunch of existing answers to their problem.


*) In Perl, which I'm more familiar with, I'd use what's called a "hash slice" — essentially, indexing the dictionary with a list of keys, and getting a list of values. But while Python also has something called "slicing", it's not really the same thing, so that obvious (to me) approach won't work in Python. That said, Googling for "python dictionary slice" is how I found this dupe, so clearly I'm not the only one with this terminology issue.

3
  • Since I ve been downvoted on duplicates before I never thought of them being useful as described in the link you provided. The audit question is indeed a duplicate of your 1st proposed duplicate. However, wouldn't flagging during review still result in me "failing" the audit? In other words its a variation of my second question: How can I avoid failing audits on way too simple questions with 0 research?
    – user
    Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 8:07
  • Yes, in this case flagging as a dupe would (AFAIK) have failed the audit, This is a known issue; see e.g. this post on meta.SE or this recent one here on meta.SO. In any case, the work-around is to open the question in a new tab and flag from there; I recommend doing this for dupes anyway, since it lets you see which question actually has better answers. Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 15:10
  • (Opening the question in a new tab, and flagging / close-voting / downvoting it from there, is also the recommended way to handle obviously bad review audits. Doing this should remove the post from the audit rotation. If you do this before failing the audit -- which, of course, generally requires noticing that it is an audit -- you can then safely skip past it.) Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 15:15
21

I don't think it should matter if you can think of solutions for questions. If that criteria would be used by Jon Skeet he would fail every first post audit as well.

With that said I wonder if I would have failed that audit. These are some of my criteria, in any order, which I assume you use as well. Is the question ...

  • on topic?
  • clear?
  • understandable?
  • useful for future visitors?
  • correctly tagged?
  • correctly formatted?
  • without spelling/grammar errors?
  • well researched?

Based on these criteria that question wouldn't be clear cut close or down vote worthy. But if I'm in a grumpy mood I might have made the same decision you did.

In that sense it is a good audit (the question has received a down vote so it probably won't be used as audit anymore). To avoid failing these kind of audits try to weigh in more criteria, not only the lack of research.

Beyond that, hope for the best and prepare for the worst. We all fail an audit now and then, if you don't make an habit of it you should be fine.

9
  • Probably worth mentioning that virtually everyone fails an audit and 1 failed audit is nothing to worry about. It really isn't an issue until you make a habit of failing multiple audits Commented Oct 24, 2015 at 9:51
  • Lack of research is not the only criteria I used. I didn't explicitly mention it, but whether it will be useful to others is another crucial criteria. An extremely simple question like this would have no use for others, since anyone with a little bit of python experience would be able to solve this problem with a for loop.
    – user
    Commented Oct 24, 2015 at 9:53
  • 2
    Grammar/spelling/format/tags can be fixed with editing. Therefor, to me those criteria are secondary.
    – user
    Commented Oct 24, 2015 at 9:57
  • 1
    @Fermiparadox in that case the python followers should down vote and close vote those simple questions, which they obviously don't do. The python tag followers thought the question is OK-ish given the answers and no down votes. That is not something the audit selection mechanism can fix, you'll run into those now and then.
    – rene
    Commented Oct 24, 2015 at 9:58
  • @rene "you'll run into those now and then" - This is exactly what I am worried about; it's not a single audit that I or anyone using lack of research and usefulness as his main criteria would fail. Any such audits would result in STOP! Look and Listen.
    – user
    Commented Oct 24, 2015 at 10:04
  • 4
    Yes, I'm worried too but there is not much we can do about that except explaining to everyone when and how to use their votes so these questions don't end-up as a good audit. The android tag is notorious for having tons of upvotes on question that are much crappier than the one you ran into from the python tag
    – rene
    Commented Oct 24, 2015 at 10:11
  • 3
    rene, @Fermiparadox - I follow the python tag. The question, as worded could be a little more clear about what they're looking for, but that is certainly a valid question for python, and it's not as simple as it looks. There's the normal way (loops) then there's the python way™, which is list comprehensions, map(), or a lambda. Using a loop would work, but it's not pythonic. (Yes that's a word)
    – theB
    Commented Oct 24, 2015 at 12:11
  • So you agree it is a good audit @theB ?
    – rene
    Commented Oct 24, 2015 at 12:59
  • 3
    As an audit, I think its 'meh'. It's not the greatest question ever, but I don't think it's that bad. (For whatever that's worth) That said, I don't blame anyone reading that if they immediately say, "Well, duh! Loops! LMGTFY!". :)
    – theB
    Commented Oct 24, 2015 at 13:11
2

I suspect that the multiple upvotes come from grateful Googlers with similarly little knowledge rather than dedicated Stack Overflow members; I don't necessarily think that makes the upvotes invalid.

1
  • googlers have nothing to do with that. Question timeline shows "flash in the pan" pattern of upvotes, typical for hot-questions. Posts that are genuinely popular and attract visitors from web searches have noticeable "long tail" of upvotes coming at them
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 26, 2015 at 20:24

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