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Your score in a given tag is based solely on the number of votes you have received on answers tagged with that tag.

Based on this system, it would be possible to have 100 accepted answers in TagA, and a score of 0 in TagA.

In low traffic tags, it's very possible for this kind of situation to arise, in fact it's almost a certainty.

Now, rep-whoring aside, the accumulation of tag score, along with the awarding of tag badges is not only a goal to aim for, but is also a good indication of expertise within a certain area.

Someone who has many, many accepted answers in a tag would be correctly classified as something of an expert in that tag. However their actual tag score could be some very low number (even zero).

Stack Overflow currently recognizes the contribution of these users by awarding the Tenacious and Unsung Hero badges, however, these are not tag specific, so do little to address this imbalance in my opinion.

My proposal would be for an accepted answer count as a +1 to the tag score.

The +1 should only accrue if the awarder does not also upvote:

  • accepted answer = +1
  • upvote = +1
  • accepted answer + upvote = +1

Who's with me?

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  • 46
    Shouldn't an accepted answer be worth more than an upvote?
    – Loko
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 8:12
  • 2
    @Loko usually OP will already up-vote, so his vote then counts for 2. That seems fair to me. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 8:18
  • 5
    @PatrickHofman I just mean in general. Accepted answers also give you more rep than an upvote. Also you cant really assume OP will upvote too.
    – Loko
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 8:27
  • 38
    @PatrickHofman A new user can accept an answer but can't upvote without 15 rep. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 9:19
  • 1
    @DavidPostill I know. So that would still be +1 on your tag score for new users. +2 for up-vote and accept. Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 9:21
  • Hmm... it looks like this change would give the original poster one or two silver tag badges and one or two bronze tag badges. Overall it would increase his badge score by about 50%. Personally, I'd only gain one more bronze tag badge with an over all increase in badge score of about 40%.
    – Ross Ridge
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 15:22
  • 37
    As someone with the Unsung Hero badge, I approve of this message.
    – Jashaszun
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 17:04
  • hah. I just checked.. I have 9... wonderful. But still this is an interesting thought. Would love to hear a counter thought.
    – Cayce K
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 17:27
  • 9 answers with a score of 0 and accepted. 10 is the base for UnsungHero
    – Cayce K
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 17:31
  • 4
    @CayceK: Actually, it's 11. Commented Aug 1, 2015 at 1:39
  • 6
    "I feel accepted answers are a fine social contract, but not a good data point for question or answer quality..." (Jeff Atwood)
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 16:40
  • 7
    Why is this legitimate question, which seems to be approved by many here, has not received an answer from SO staff yet?
    – Thomas G
    Commented Sep 20, 2016 at 10:20
  • 2
    Is there a way to draw admin attention to this post? There's a clear need, a simple proposal which has no opposition ("Accepted answers with zero votes count as +1"), which would presumably be simple to implement. And no comment from any SO staff (afaik). Commented Jun 20, 2018 at 3:21
  • 2
    I support this. how to get enough attention to this thread? Commented Jun 1, 2020 at 3:51
  • 1
    Fully support this.. Commented Sep 4 at 7:48

4 Answers 4

43

I support this, although it'll be better that a +1 will be awarded if an accepted answer has 0 or less score. This way there will be no "extra" points for all accepts, just for those that classify for "Unsung hero" badge. Just add sum of accepted answers under a given tag that have 0 or less score to the amount of "tag score".

10
  • 8
    I would certainly support this. Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 7:31
  • 1
    So this would mean that a 0 score accepted answer gives the same as a +1 accepted answer?
    – Loko
    Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 7:36
  • @Loko Yes, effectively equalizing answering questions for those users that can't upvote with those which OPs can upvote. Reputation gain will still be different, but tag proficiency will progress even if OPs cannot upvote.
    – Vesper
    Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 7:42
  • 3
    "+1 will be awarded if an accepted answer has 0 or less score" -- so in other words, if a questioner accepts a bad answer, that will actually reward the answerer? This proposal has "unintended harmful consequences" written all over it. And frankly, it seems like a worse version of the heavily-downvoted proposal I gave (i.e. grant the +1 toward the badge for an accepted answer, but only if the person posting the question didn't up-vote the answer). Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 21:22
  • 2
    @PeterDuniho Acceptance indicates the answer was helpful and solved the problem, regardless of its score. I would downvote a CSS answer that said not much more than "use !important with the property" because it is low quality and bad advice, but if the asker tries and finds that it works (it probably would), then the asker is well within their right to accept that answer. Votes are a reflection of an answer's perceived value by the community, but acceptance is currently solely the purview of the asker.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 4, 2015 at 14:08
  • 2
    @PeterDuniho "Bad" answer? There might be no one around to say the answer is actually good, not even the asker (they had 1 rep, haha). This is indeed the case with low-traffic tags (I had a silver in AS3 in almost three years and 500+ answers, and about half of them were not upvoted by anyone, while many were accepted). And for high-traffic tags, peer review will quickly downhill an accepted answer if it's really bad, resulting in negative tag score gain. So I propose a balanced (IMO) solution that impacts low-traffic tags better than high-traffic tags.
    – Vesper
    Commented Aug 4, 2015 at 14:21
  • @PeterDuniho How come it's a floor? It's a net +1 for acceptance if an accepted answer has 0 or less. That is, if an answer has -2, and has been accepted, its net value in total tag score (each tag) will be -1 against -2 right now. No "floor of +1".
    – Vesper
    Commented Aug 4, 2015 at 15:25
  • Sorry...your proposal wasn't stated clearly. It appeared to me you were setting the vote value to +1. That said, with your clarification, your proposal is nearly the same as the one I already made, except that you would allow the poster of a question to effectively double-vote for an answer. I.e. you would award the extra vote even if the question poster had already up-voted the answer; while this is not quite as bad as setting a floor, it still has the similar effect of preferentially rewarding bad answers, just to a lesser degree. Commented Aug 4, 2015 at 16:15
  • @PeterDuniho Sorry for vague explanations. In fact, this system does not allow the asker to double-vote, unless someone else would downvote, because if the asker would upvote, the answer will have a score of 1 and thus not eligible for an extra point for being accepted.
    – Vesper
    Commented Aug 4, 2015 at 16:40
  • 2
    "unless someone else would downvote" -- that's my point. Your proposal is specifically boosting the score of the answer exactly when others have already indicated it's a bad answer. It also fails to award the extra vote even when the questioner hasn't up-voted the answer while anyone else has. So bad answers (those with downvotes) tend to be rewarded, while good answers (those with upvotes) tend not to be. Granted, the effect is small, but a) so is the effect of the lack of any change, and b) whatever the magnitude of the effect, it's rewarding and punishing exactly the wrong behaviors. Commented Aug 4, 2015 at 16:44
29

The following proposal was made by Peter Duniho. Regardless of what people think about the other views expressed in his answer, I feel this proposal should stand on its own, because I see it as a cleaner and better solution than the currently leading answer.

An acceptance of an answer should be counted toward the tag badge only if the questioner did not also up-vote the answer (i.e. don't double-count the input from the questioner).

This would give the questioner an opportunity to contribute their +1 to the tag score, regardless of whether they use an upvote or accept to do that.

It wouldn't have the undesired effect of counting the questioner's input twice for answers with score <= 0, or not counting their accept if they can't vote and the answer has a positive score.

0
9

The whole reputation system is already biased towards high-traffic tags and it would be rather difficult to remedy that. Also, a well-researched and documented answer to a complex question can sometimes go unnoticed or receive few upvotes, while some answers to "duh!" questions rake in rep by the thousands. Case in point would be the answer to the highest ranked question with the tag. (Incidentally, the dude who answered that question has access to the moderator tools on the basis of that eloquent answer alone: the answer "\q" earned him 9,200 rep out of 12,800 or so total. The highest earning answer on tag "postgresql" yielded 9,430 rep for the equally intelligent answer "\d+ tablename, see the manual for more info". Not to say anything to the contrary of the users in question, but it does show that the rep system has some weak spots.)

That said, I do agree with the OP that remedial action can be taken to create a more level playing field for new tags. But rather than stay with the votes-for-tags-up-to-a-level system, I would create an additional way to earn a tag badge for tags that not have had many questions posted:

  • Bronze tag badge: At least 2 accepted answers where total questions <= 5.
  • Silver tag badge: At least 6 accepted answers where total questions <= 25.
  • Gold tag badge: At least 25 accepted answers where total questions <= 50.

The bronze tag is available almost instantly, but you have to display your skills. The silver badge requires more performance, without being out of reach. The gold badge is for the demonstrated pro. This does not address the issue of a lethargic readership that can't be bothered to vote, but it puts new tags in badge territory much sooner than the rep evaluation.

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  • 2
    A gold badge requires half or more of the questions to have an accepted answer by you? This would literally preclude having more than one person with a gold badge. Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by "questions <= x"?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 0:39
  • @jpmc26 The limits can be tweaked but the intent is that tag badges become available early on. That does not mean that everybody-and-their-grandmother should be labeled an expert. As soon as the number of questions surpasses the above gold badge limit, the regular rules will kick in and any number of users can earn badges under the votes+answers rule.
    – Patrick
    Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 4:39
  • 1
    Nice idea! It could even be dynamic like (x answer upvotes) || (y% of total tag upvotes) where x and y are determined based on tag popularity.
    – user000001
    Commented Aug 4, 2015 at 14:30
-18

Outlier examples aside, is there some reason to believe that this effect is not already accounted for in the current badge thresholds?

Badge requirements are already arbitrary to some extent anyway. Given that one can expect a certain percentage of accepted answers to fail to garner an up-vote (from the questioner or otherwise), it seems reasonable to me to assume that the Stack Overflow staff who have set the badge requirements have already taken this into account, reducing the requirement from what it otherwise would be, were the acceptance of an answer meant to contribute to progress toward the badge.

In other words, no…I'm not sure I see the value of counting an accepted answer toward the progress of a tag badge.


In the event that the requested change is implemented, I would propose two qualifications:

  • The tag badge requirement be revisited and recalibrated to attempt to preserve the current meaning of the badge (i.e. taking into account current badge holders and their average relative proportions of accepted and non-up-voted answers)
  • An acceptance of an answer be counted toward the tag badge only if the questioner did not also up-vote the answer (i.e. don't double-count the input from the questioner).


Addendum:

For those so adamant that without the extra point toward the badge for accepted-but-not-up-voted answers, valuable contributions to Stack Exchange sites will not be made, take a moment to consider this:

It would have been trivial for SE to cause an automatic up-vote by the questioner for any question that was accepted. But they didn't do that. It seems clear that the intent is for an up-vote and an accepted answer to mean two different things. As such, it also seems clear that the tag badge, being based on up-votes, is intended to reflect the thing that up-votes mean and not the thing that accepted answers mean.

Conflating the two is just as clearly in conflict with the actual intent of the site design.

I get that it's human nature to get all hot and bothered about whether something is "fair", and I also get that it's natural to perceive a system that fails to award progress in a tag for a question that was accepted as "unfair". But the fact is, this isn't a competition and as such there's no such thing as "fair" or "unfair". Worrying about the fairness of it all is pointless.

And frankly, personally I'd rather be involved in a "helping others" site where the help is given freely, and without so much fretting about what one gets in return. The reputation and badge system is a nice add-on, and it does provide a coarse-grained mechanism to help improve the quality of the site (by restricting users until they have proven their competence and pro-social behavior). But it's already doing its job, and there's no evidence that the change being proposed here will produce any significant improvement in the quality of the site.

If there really are people who are withholding their expertise for the sole reason that on occasion when they answer a question in manner helpful enough for the questioner to accept the answer, the question still is not awarded an up-vote, well…I feel that those people are probably not really the people the site ought to be catering to in the first place. They are "in it" for the wrong reasons.

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  • 3
    So basically make a change to reward those who should be earning the badge for it while also making sure that the system is recalibrated so that they do not earn it?
    – SeinopSys
    Commented Jul 31, 2015 at 23:51
  • @DJDavid98: No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Please re-read my answer. My point is that I see no evidence that the claimed problem is a problem at all; as long as the badge requirement's original calibration takes into account the fact that not all accepted answers are up-voted (and there's every reason to believe it is), then there's no need for a change at all. If for psychological reasons, people still feel it desirable to make the change, then the change should not result in an actual change in the badge prevalence. Anyone with evidence to the contrary is welcome to present it. Commented Aug 1, 2015 at 0:11
  • 1
    The existence of the Unsung Hero badge shows how the tag badges don't account for zero-score accepted answers. For certain people this an easy badge to get, for others it can appear much more difficult. It all depends on the tags you answer questions for. I got it easily, so did the original poster I assume, but for you to get it you'd need about 50 more accepted 0 score answers without getting a single 1+ score answer in that time. This is part of what makes it harder to get certain tag badges than others. This change aims to even out the difficulty a bit, recalibrated or not.
    – Ross Ridge
    Commented Aug 1, 2015 at 21:33
  • I'm not sure why this is getting so many downvotes. I completely agree with the sentiment that "badge requirements are already arbitrary to some extent anyway". If people are complaining about the idea of a recalculation to maintain current badge scores, that's a different issue (and one I'm indifferent on), but I agree with the bulk of this answer. Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 5:36
  • @AlexisKing: yes, it is remarkably unhelpful to the discussion for folks to downvote without offering their own contribution (either another answer to provide an alternative viewpoint, or a comment here explaining their dissent). My suspicion (granted, I lack any specific evidence) is that this question is generally attracting predominantly folks over-concerned with their badges (or lack thereof), and who simply disagree that any perceived unfairness in the system should be accepted, as I've proposed here. But without actual communication by them, I guess we'll never know for sure. Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 6:48
  • 2
    The question is not about arbitrary requirements (which are unavoidable), it's about bias towards high-traffic tags. Well, uniform requirements do not account for any bias. Yet your main argument to not change anything is that we should assume they thought of this when they set the requirements. Since this is the only badge with real benefits - you get extra privileges and you may be seen as an authority on the subject - I think it's worth it to look into the actual data.
    – knbk
    Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 13:46
  • @knbk: the only "privilege" I'm aware of that a tag badge provides is single-vote closing of duplicates, for those with the gold-level badge. This is less a "privilege" than a mechanism to improve efficiency of housekeeping. An efficiency that is much less in need for low-traffic tags (it's impossible for there to be a problem of rampant, unclosed duplicates in a tag that gets little traffic to start with). Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 16:38
  • 1
    Doesn't really matter what you call it, that was not my point. My point is that any possible bias is not accounted for, and I think it's a good idea to look into the data to see if this bias is real and how big it is. (I also think that single-close votes are very useful in low-traffic tags to quickly close bad questions and reduce noise, but again, that's not the point.)
    – knbk
    Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 17:04
  • @knbk: that bias exists is well-established. You can investigate the data yourself if you like, but it's not relevant. Reputation itself, which is a far greater determining factor when it comes to privileges on the site, is subject to huge bias effects: FGITW, "pioneer effect", and yes...level of traffic in the tag, to name a few. And nothing is done to attempt to address those sources of bias. So why should we ask the SO staff to invest any attention at all on such a minor issue as the tag badges? If bias is to be addressed at all, shouldn't we start with the more important areas first? Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 17:17
  • It's a reasonably isolated issue, and changing the requirements would be trivial to implement, why shouldn't it be fixed? A huge issue shouldn't stop you from fixing smaller issues.
    – knbk
    Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 17:59
  • @knbk: "why shouldn't it be fixed" -- for the same reason any trivial, unimportant issue shouldn't be fixed: fixing that issue takes finite resources away from issues that actually matter. The bottom line is this: does the perceived lack of "fairness" in the awarding of the tag badges cause significant damage to the site. Would fixing the issue significantly improve the site? I don't see any evidence that the answer to either of these questions is anything but a resounding "no". Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 18:44
  • Would fixing the issue significantly improve the site? - it would for me, and presumably 59 other people... Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 7:44
  • @TomRedfern: really? How? Please be specific, and make sure your explanation focuses on significant improvement to the site with respect to the objectively stated goals of the site, and not your own personal subjective wishes. That 59 (or even 68) other people find this question useful doesn't in any way suggest there's an actual significant improvement to the success of the goals of the site that would result from this change. It just means that many people clicked the up-vote button. Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 16:09
  • 1
    The entire website is geared towards people helping people. So recognizing the people who help people mean that they will help more people. We don't need to over analyse this - it's self evident that this is true in all possible universes. Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 16:46
  • 1
    Let's take a very conservative 10% of the weekly questions of the top tag, javascript, as a threshold for being significantly affected by the bias. That's where django is, the tag where I'm active. That's still 13% of the weekly questions on just the first page of popular tags, quite a bit more if you take the next few pages into account. It probably happens at just 25% of the weekly questions of the top tag as well, which gives you 27% of the total weekly questions on the first page. That's a significant amount of traffic.
    – knbk
    Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 23:36

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