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Further to my question asking about statistics regarding first time questions being closed (Is there a statistic on the percentage of first-time questions that are deemed low quality?) I had a thought:

People who repeatedly ask low-quality questions may not be in the right place for help - a forum may be better for them instead of a q/a site - or they may not know what their problem is, in which case they need help focusing on the problem/s they face.

So, if a user has more than x % questions which have been closed (or some other suitable metric like first two questions closed etc) maybe they could lose their questioning ability and be directed to a small pop-quiz that gives examples of good/bad questions and they need to repeat the quiz until they get them all correct.

Maybe it could be a badge available to everyone / all new users?

EDIT:

As reasoned in the comments below, if a new user has had a few questions closed, then maybe the 'pop quiz' could be to raise x helpful flags. This would show the user is showing an awareness of what's good for the site vs what isn't. This may lead to users flagging everything, so to prevent people from raising flags on everything they see, then a % success rate should be implemented?

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    See also my answer meta.stackoverflow.com/a/266450/545127
    – Raedwald
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 8:13
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    I don't know... might be a lot of effort for little gain. They get directed to resources to help them. Those willing probably already read what's available. Many of the rest would possibly fake or skirt the test.
    – Andrew Barber Mod
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 8:18
  • possible duplicate of What triggers the question ban?
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 8:42
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    We should redirect all rant-authors to the course as well. Low-quality posts are the reason behind a lot of rants. Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 15:27
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    Disagree! 1st the effort is huge, 2nd stripping questioning ability will force them to make another account for asking which is another problem. Not a viable solution. Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 17:13
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    @gnat and other close-voters: I what way is this even remote close to this question? The other question asks for the algorithm of the question ban, the OP here proposes to use some kind of tutorial if the question-ban (or some other metric) is active. I see no similarities here.
    – dirkk
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 17:13
  • @dirkk meta.stackexchange.com/a/194495/165773 FWIW system already warns the users approaching question ban
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 17:19
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    @gnat I fail to see the point here. So you vote-to-close question as duplicate, although you know they are not, so that the OP reads (and possible benefits) from the other question? Why not simply link to it?
    – dirkk
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 17:25
  • @dirkk as for me, I retracted my vote after you explained the difference. Thing is though, it's hard to find in comments and others may make same mistake as I did. If explanation how question differs from another one would be edited into question, that would make it easier to avoid wrong closure
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 17:41
  • Personally, I can't see how the linked question has anything to do with this question - this is about dealing with people who have (or, likely to get) the ban, the other question is about people dealing with the ban. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 7:48
  • @AndrewBarber If English wasn't my first language, and i was directed to pages full with English text, I'd probably find that incredibly off-putting and of no use to me. If I found short explanations that I could actively learn from then I think that would be far more useful. "Those willing..." should be "Those able to read..." Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 7:51
  • shameless self-promotion: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/253305/… oh and it is semi-related Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 18:23
  • @CarrieKendall I'd find most of those 'solutions' very annoying to the point I'd leave. We're coders not children. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 20:51
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    if people are annoyed by guidelines that are in place to help them not get downvotes, then they probably wont fair well on SO. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 21:01
  • Like Copyright School? Commented Aug 12, 2014 at 3:57

2 Answers 2

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I would guess people who do this don't care much about points, or the broad goals of S.O., so what will happen is they'll just open a new user1234 account rather than deal with whatever hassle.

Actually, perhaps they would care about points, but have had their attitude shaped by the attitude of the community at large, which could be perceived as more eager to punish a poor effort than it is to reward a decent one. If you create a climate where it seems "decent" isn't good enough and someone knows "excellent" is unattainable, that person may give up on bothering with "decent" and just put in a minimal "poor" effort.

To explain further: although the upvote arrow tooltip says:

This question shows research effort; it is useful and clear.

It is very obvious that the vast majority of viewers do not upvote questions that are reasonably well drafted, show some research effort, might be useful to others, etc.1 Consequently, you can spend time writing a "decent" question and get a 0 (but your question will be answered), or you can spend much less time and get a -N (and your question will still be answered). This is probably particularly true WRT duplicates -- why bother looking for them yourself if you know the system will supply them for you?

The question is likely answered in either case (definitely answered, in effect, if it's closed as a duplicate) because new users who ask poorly structured questions are likely also asking fairly easy questions and other users will jump on them in search of a tick or some points.

So, while a "bad questions course" is not a bad idea, I am dubious as to how effective it will really be in most cases. How worthwhile that makes it isn't for me to answer.

1. Either that or the vast majority of viewers do not consider themselves qualified to judge a "decent looking" question, but know a bad one when they see it.

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    "Actually, perhaps they would care about points, but have had their attitude shaped by the attitude of the community at large, which could be perceived as more eager to punish a poor effort than it is to reward a decent one." <- that Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 17:37
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    I thought the current rule here is 'mob rules' where if one person doesn't take to you, they and their 'friends' downvote you. Cynicism aside, mob rules is how the stack exchange sites are run with people self-moderating akin to the chan sites and 'sage' and I agree that people will more often 'sage' than upvote. Personally, I upvote because I think it's a useful question that I may benefit from but won't downvote if it isn't useful to me. Like me, I'm sure people upvote and downvote for their own reasons - some of which may be malicious (which I think is another problem). Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 7:43
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    "Either that or the vast majority of viewers do not consider themselves qualified to judge a "decent looking" question, but know a bad one when they see it." That is me to a 'T'
    – JamesENL
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 8:43
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    @user3791372 Then you're doing it wrong. Upvote when you see good, downvote when you see bad. This is how you can help the site and the community. If you only upvote, you are trying to live in a fairy tale, which does not help anyone. Personally, I see good questions upvoted, bad questions downvoted most of the time. I don't really see downvotes being used more than upvotes, actually we would need much more downvotes.
    – kapa
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 9:02
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    @user3791372 Voting is anonymous. How can people form "gangs" of downvoters -- are you proposing that there are conspiracies of downvoters who gather in the hidden back alleys of the internet, and pounce on poor hapless askers? Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 13:57
  • @Yakk Indeed. I downvote bad questions, and see other people downvoting the same question. This isn't a conspiracy—in general I don't know, communicate with, or even vaguely socialise with the other downvoters, or any other specific group of SO users. If a question gets a bunch of downvotes, I'd assume that's because it strikes a lot of individuals as a bad question. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 14:02
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    @kapa i can only upvote at the moment, look at my rep ;) Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 18:07
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    @MattGibson Although the OP phrased his/her disgruntlement in slightly paranoid terms in the comment here, it needn't be dismissed as pure "conspiracy theory". The high rep users at any given S.E. site (note, I'm in the top 10 at U&L) inevitably interact with one another significantly and influence the larger community. I do not think this is a bad thing, but I do think there is a tendency for larger numbers of other users to get a garbled message from "us" and then act out some of the stuff that might appear as the phenomenon observed in comment #2... Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 18:14
  • ...which is part of the larger psychology I've speculated about in this post. Users who write decent questions that score zero are probably not inclined to bother evaluating someone else's question as "decent" unless it's one they're really interested in, but the activity of the community may motivate them to respond negatively to not-so-decent questions even if they would not have been interested anyway. Point being, again: if people believe they won't get credit for doing something as asked (shows research effort...is useful and clear) then many of them won't, downvotes be damned. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 18:30
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    The first time I used SO I had trouble learning the formatting options for code so I just dropped in blocks of java without much effort. I got my answers a few times, but eventually my account was no longer able to ask questions. I tried for a short time to correct my wrongs, but I eventually just decided to learn the proper conventions and start from scratch in a new account. At the very least, I think the best option is to either lessen the burden for those no longer able to ask questions or to offer extra points to people who help out with formatting participation of new members. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 18:34
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TL;DR

The new users who care and are affected by downvotes will learn and once they understand how Stack Overflow is different (which sometimes can take a few posts), these users usually go and follow the guidelines on how to get bans removed, etc¹. These aren't really the users that junk up the system (and review queues) and I personally believe that the review system works very well with handling this common situation.

There are, however, users that don't give a crap and just try to get around the rules regardless of how many times they're banned, punished, downvoted, etc.

Afterthought: I probably need a tl;dr for my tl;dr


So, I think the real question is:

How can you thwart low-quality posting authored by users who don't care?

I think this is the question that these posts are really trying to get at. And, it is hard for people who do care to understand because, if I tell someone who cares about SO

"You stand to lose rep when you post low-quality crap!!1!"

then the reaction most likely is

"I am going to try really hard not to post low-quality crap!"

This doesn't really matter to a though. So, back to the question, what do help vampires value and how can we use this to our advantage?

In my opinion, I think the answer is fairly clear, time. I hit on this in my related post, Thwart publishing duplicate and low quality questions.

The suggestions aim to slow down new users which could easily be extended to "bad" users. In Chris's amazing answer, he addresses this with a type of wizard approach to the asking process.

Now, I know the pessimistic (and realistic) bunch are going to say

"Can't they just click through the wizard and post?"

Yep. But, almost any process on Stack Overflow can be done in one or a handful of clicks For example:

  • reviewing
  • moderation
  • posting
    • comments
    • answers
    • questions

I provide other ideas in my post that aren't so easily circumvented but, based on Robert Harvey's informative answer this isn't really something that Stack Overflow is worried about.

The review system is set up to handle posts that are not handled by automatic processes. I kind of think that it is backwards logic to put the responsibility on people who have proven via reputation and good behavior (ie not getting banned and/or failing reviews) rather than new users who are asking to be helped at no cost but this obviously isn't up to me.

So, what can you do?

Review!

There are review queues that aim to handle low quality posts (as well as first posts) based on internal algorithms that sniff em out.


¹: A good example of a user that did care and there are plenty of new users like this one.

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  • new users who are asking for help at no cost: new users can't contribute anything because of the permissions system, other than flags; mod help for which no points are given. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 20:47
  • how does that relate to making them go through a few initiation wizards/walkthroughs? Reputation is earned, so are privileges. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 20:54
  • also, that's not true. You can edit for review with 1 reputation point. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 21:00
  • The 'privilege' for asking questions isn't earned. Maybe the 'pop quiz' could be to raise 5 helpful flags which would show an understanding of acceptable question format and fit into current workflow and require minimal overhead. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 21:02
  • I think that would stop people from wanting to participate. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 21:04
  • You should not have to be a moderator or understand everything about Stack Overflow to participate. You should, however, understand the standards and basics on asking questions. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 21:04
  • Re your last comment I agree, and which raising x amount of flags proves you do. Raising a flag isn't moderating. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 21:12

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