71

I'm not an especially seasoned Meta user, so forgive me if this seems like a trivial question.

My impression of Meta is that one of its major functions is to act as a forum for focused discussion of topics that affect the functionality of SO. A lot of the questions and issues which may be raised are largely matters of community opinion: indeed, that's exactly why we use the up/downvote buttons to express agreement and disagreement. We open these questions so that we can see how the community feels about the issues, and to see what people have to say about them.

In view of this, the close reason

primarily opinion-based

Many good questions generate some degree of opinion based on expert experience, but answers to this question will tend to be almost entirely based on opinions rather than facts, references, or specific expertise.

seems kind of useless, and possibly even runs counter to the purpose of the tag altogether:

A tag for questions that may not have a clear-cut right or wrong answer and are often subjective. If it's not a bug or a feature request, it is probably a discussion. (emphasis mine)

So why is this a valid reason to close a question?


I'm obviously not complaining about this close vote reason in general (it's totally valid on SO), just that it seems misplaced on Meta where community consensus and opinion is much more important.

11
  • 13
    It is still possible to have meta questions which simply cannot be answered because they are too opinion-based and no answer would really be constructive. Basically, the bar for how much opinion is allowed is just in a different place.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 4:08
  • @animuson: I don't disagree. But I think the bar has to be very high -- the question must really be incapable of producing constructive results before I'd consider closing it on those grounds. Even slightly constructive discussions/debates can be constructive in the process, if not the outcome.
    – nneonneo
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 4:11
  • 1
    I've seen several cases where it has been quite a useful close reason, and fit exactly the situation where it was used. I don't have examples off-hand, but there are circumstances where it applies. If you want the official SE response, it's "we don't support per-site customized close reasons anymore" - only the off-topic reasons can be changed on each site.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 4:12
  • 1
    Related on MSE: Voting to close as "primarily opinion based" on Meta?
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 4:35
  • 3
    Isn't this question rather primarily opinion-based?
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 4:50
  • 15
    I agree this is a weird close reason to have on a Meta. The old "not constructive" was much better - and more honest, given that these are subjective decisions anyway.
    – Pekka
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 4:52
  • 2
    @Pekka 웃: I miss the "noise or pointless" close reason.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 5:18
  • 6
    It's killing me to not flag this as primarily opinion based.
    – kylieCatt
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 5:20
  • 2
    Gotta have something to click on a when somebody posts a rant impersonated as a discussion. The usual outcome however is many dozens of downvotes instead of closure. Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 12:22
  • 1
    @hansPassant Actually, that's the primary problem with Stack Exchange websites. Most people come here just to police everybody and enforce silly rules for their amusement.
    – user1052335
    Commented May 6, 2015 at 19:55
  • 8
    I think this is a question for meta.meta.stackoverflow.com
    – Jojodmo
    Commented Dec 17, 2015 at 3:15

3 Answers 3

25

You're right, discussion questions on Meta often, if not mostly, involve some subjectivity. The "Good Subjective, Bad Subjective" blog post is relevant.

Generally speaking, that close reason gets used on Meta in two cases:

  • when the voters judge that the post is not really a solicitation of discussion, but just a rant in question's clothing, ("$THING sucks, amirite? Discuss.") or
  • when the opinions involved are so inconsequential as to be a waste of Meta users' time to discuss ("How soon do you think Jon Skeet will hit $LARGE_NUMBER reputation?")

Pekka already pointed this out in a comment quite a long time ago:

The old "not constructive" was much better - and more honest, given that these are subjective decisions anyway.

9
  • Do you have any data to support this? It seems very unlikely that people's underlying reason to vote in particular way is recorded at all.
    – Borodin
    Commented Dec 16, 2017 at 14:52
  • No, I speak from my own experience: questions that I've seen over the years. I tried to find some examples, but there's no way to search by close reason. Many of the first kind get downvoted and deleted in short order anyways.
    – jscs
    Commented Dec 16, 2017 at 14:54
  • So how do you go about inferring the real reason for the vote?
    – Borodin
    Commented Dec 16, 2017 at 14:55
  • I can't say for sure what was in any individual voter's head, but the commentary on Meta posts usually gives a sense of the closers' motivations.
    – jscs
    Commented Dec 16, 2017 at 14:57
  • But there's no way of tying close votes to any one subscriber until the post is finally closed. Are you saying that you study closed questions and tie up the list of voters with the comments they may have made? That's extraordinarily diligent, especially on a basis regular enough for you to be able to make the generalisations that you have.
    – Borodin
    Commented Dec 16, 2017 at 15:09
  • Indeed, the individual vote reasons are never exposed. On closure all voters are clumped together under the most popular vote reason. Given that, I don't see how you can glean any useful information from those voters' comments.
    – Borodin
    Commented Dec 16, 2017 at 15:29
  • 3
    @Borodin I believe what Josh is trying to get across is that this answer is purely anecdotal ("based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers"), i.e. not based on raw facts but rather observations and experiences collected over time and amalgamated into a sort of intuition ("the power or faculty of attaining ... cognition without evident rational thought and inference".
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 16, 2017 at 18:24
  • I think that a better example for your second point wold be Are there badges that are easy to get on one site but hard to get on other site?. About your first point, according to my experience, those questions often get closed as off-topic because they don't seek input or discussion. Commented Dec 16, 2017 at 19:45
  • @DonaldDuck, thanks, yeah, that's sort of in the direction of "What? Who gives a s*** what the answer is?", but personally I think that particular question is fairly interesting (uh oh, I guess it is opinion-based :o).
    – jscs
    Commented Dec 16, 2017 at 22:56
-1

Serving existing answers as a baseline, I would like to extend on the ways in which "opinion based" could be a valid close reason to consider on Meta Stack Overflow.

A great deal of discussions and feature requests taking place on Meta are backed by an opinion on how things ought to be handled in the platform. Assuming that the question emerged with good intentions, a generally good outcome here is to keep it open for answers, regardless of how much people agree or disagree with the underlying premise.

In fact, diverging opinions emerge all the time. One can even find two related questions where the highest scored answers show completely polarized opinions. This is merely a consequence of how times change, content scale changes, and active user base changes with it. Opinions on the "workings and policies of Stack Overflow" will always exist and be part of the process. With that, it is only natural for the existence of this reason to be extremely confusing.

Let's make an update to the "root" reasons for using this CV reason presented in this answer:

  • when the voters judge that the post is not really a solicitation of discussion, but just a rant in question's clothing, ("$THING sucks, amirite? Discuss.")

Rants are best closed as "does not appear to seek input and discussion". It's just an attempt at venting where the OP has little interest in having a constructive discussion. Sure, sometimes it's hard to tell, and we've had controversial positions in the past, but if the signs are there, appearing not to seek input or discussion is reasonable to expect. At least in this case, we were clear about what the community was undecided with: whether or not the original author was actually interested in a constructive discussion.

  • when the opinions involved are so inconsequential as to be a waste of Meta users' time to discuss ("How soon do you think Jon Skeet will hit $LARGE_NUMBER reputation?")

This is probably the only kind of question where none of the available reasons make a perfect fit. But that's probably because it is also a matter of opinion whether such a question isn't worth discussing in the first place. How "inconsequential" does a question have to be here? Where do we draw the line?

For what it's worth, it's not like we've never had similarly pointless questions before. And we do have a close reason for questions which are not about the platform itself, so that covers the obvious cases. For all other cases where the question was clear, on-topic, and posed in a constructive manner, we suddenly enter vague grounds for closure. Right now, if enough people with the privilege to CV have the opinion that the subject at hand is... just not worth discussing, then that's enough to put an end to it. Or worse, letting the discussion continue over in the comments. Yuck!

But think about this. Don't we already have a way to indicate that a question isn't useful? Ah yes, the downvote! "They are means to curate the content and let others know not to waste time reading the post." That seems like a much better sign of the overall utility and pertinence of the question, so long as we use it well. And it doesn't give an impression that a majority vote is enough to impose that "no one should discuss this at all". That would be a very slippery slope.

Given all this, I think one would rather think twice before using this reason at all. This is possibly the one close reason which is the hardest to justify. If you want to stop a discussion from happening, you'd better have a very good reason, on top of the "opinion based" reason. The CV is not a super downvote.

-11

It serves as an excuse for expressing disfavor with a position expressed in a question beyond a mere downvote. This happens for (at least in some) issues which are controvertial w.r.t. the power structures within the SE network and SE inc. as a company. The practice is accepted by site moderators for reasons I can mostly speculate about.

Recent example: Please scrap the highly-problematic "how are we doing" survey .

8
  • 1
    What close reason would you suggest we use for a Meta question that asks "Which Stack Overflow badge is your favorite one?" (just for example)
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 9, 2022 at 21:37
  • @TylerH: Hmm. Maybe "Matter of personal taste", or something similar?
    – einpoklum
    Commented Feb 10, 2022 at 8:13
  • 1
    If only there were a close reason like that... something to make it clear such questions are opinion-based...
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 10, 2022 at 14:47
  • @TylerH: Perhaps you failed to read my post. There's no problem with posts requiring opinion-based replies. And that's not the problem with your example.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Feb 10, 2022 at 14:48
  • 1
    I read your entire post and am using the Socratic method (poorly, I suppose) to address the fact you don't seem to understand the purpose of the 'opinion-based' close reason whatsoever.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 10, 2022 at 14:53
  • @TylerH: I believe I do understand it, actually. It's rather self-explanatory.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Feb 10, 2022 at 14:54
  • 6
    Well, you're simply mistaken, then. The opinion-based close reason is not for use as a tool to 'express disfavor beyond a mere downvote'. Your one data point is a biased, inaccurate example that didn't even remain closed for a single day.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 10, 2022 at 14:59
  • For what it's worth, the question linked was eventually reopened and stayed that way. This one, on the other hand, stays closed after several review iterations.
    – E_net4
    Commented Mar 4, 2022 at 14:02

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .