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python-certifi-win32, a small Python package, has been left in an unmaintained state, and its author recommends pip-system-certs as a replacement (by the same author). This has all been properly disclosed by the author.

The old package causes some nasty errors on the newer versions of Python, so I want to spread the word the most as I can (yes, I've spent a couple of hours debugging).

There are about 2 pages of questions mentioning the faulty package. I already started adding comments, but now I wonder if I should outright edit answers that recommend installing it to update the info.

What are the community standards on this regard?

Edit: after reading the answers, I think some clarifications of the packages involved are needed:

  • The new package is a direct replacement of the old one. They are not competing in any sense. The first package is Windows specific. To support other OSs, the author decided to create a new package.
  • This package is not the usual one a programmer would import and call some functions. Actually, it monkeypatches some other common Python libs of the environment where it's installed, and that's it. The programmer can continue working as usual and never look back again.
  • The packages do not differ too much in the Python versions they support. So it's not that the new package has been made to support the new versions of Python. But, because of the lack of maintenance of the old package, it does cause errors when used with new Python versions.
  • The error I found is rather catastrophic. It breaks the pip, Python's main package installer. Worse still, there aren't many clues that the old package is the culprit. In fact, some questions on SO about this are asking for a solution to the sudden error that they don't know where it came from.

It's because of all these specifics that I've considered editing the answers. I don't want to downvote them. They were good when they were wrote, and can still be if only they propose the new package instead of the old one.

For the same reasons, I haven't considered creating a new answer, as in most cases that would mean to write an exact copy of the answer that mentions the old package, and replace it for the new one.

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    Create a new answer, don't edit existing ones to remove the old info, people might still need it on their older stuff.
    – Warcupine
    Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 13:28
  • 21
    I would suggest that instead of editing existing answers to say "Don't use this", you would be better off creating a new answer that explains the deprecation and/or end of support and provide a solution using a different method (such as pip-system-certs you mention).
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 13:28
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    @Warcupine what about editing answers to include the update, leaving the original answer there? I feel a new answer might be an overkill.
    – sourcream
    Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 13:29
  • 12
    That would, in my opinion, conflict with the authors original intent and as you have <2k reputation such edits would likely be declined in the review queue.
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 13:30
  • 8
    No, then people would have to combine their votes between two different solutions in one answer, best to let them up/down vote each individually.
    – Warcupine
    Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 13:31
  • 1
    @Larnu Not convinced: the author understood it was maintained at the time. I think adding a banner on the old answer at the top explaining deprecation is probably a good idea, as well as a new answer showing the newer option. Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 16:06
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    I still disagree, @Charlieface . I would reject such an edit.
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 16:08
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    @Larnu Here is a perfect example of such a question stackoverflow.com/a/6381189/14868997 I'd be surprised in the extereme if you rejected such an edit (it's also used on other answer on the same question) Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 16:09
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    Considering that is a community answer, things are a little different there, @Charlieface . If you disagree with my answer, however, feel free to downvote it; that is, after all, what they are for (on meta).
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 16:10
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    @Larnu Not before it was modified stackoverflow.com/posts/6381189/revisions and stackoverflow.com/posts/60195/revisions. There has been strong argument for such a banner meta.stackoverflow.com/a/405368/14868997 Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 16:12
  • You're also free to post your own answer, @Charlieface .
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 16:48
  • 1
    @Charlieface both notices you pointed were added after the post was made community. The banner which your link talks about is not an edit to the the post, but a proposed new resource , in which someone would propose the banner and it would have to have enough votes to be accepted.
    – Magnetron
    Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 17:14
  • 1
    "There are about 2 pages of questions mentioning the faulty package." It might also be worth looking for duplicates and proposing closure of the dupes, while you're at it. Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 19:59
  • Some other answers propose the edit one, but be careful and don't modify the answer intention. meta.stackoverflow.com/a/265440/5267751
    – user202729
    Commented Aug 5, 2022 at 10:37

5 Answers 5

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Not familiar with the specific package involved, but here's some general guidance on these kind of situations.

Good things to do:

  • Do provide a new answer if you have one to offer.

  • Do comment on existing answers pointing out the problems with them (if nobody else has done so).

  • Do downvote answers that are now useless and/or harmful for all readers.

Bad things to do

  • Don't rewrite an answer to turn it into a fundamentally different answer. For instance, if an answer is suggesting using library X and giving a code example, don't edit it to suggest library Y with a totally different code example.

  • Don't edit to tack on a competing solution to an existing answer. Distinct answers should be separate answer posts.

  • Don't join a pile-on in the comments if somebody has already pointed out the deprecation.

  • Don't edit the answer in a way that makes the prose incoherent or self-contradictory. For instance, don't leave the answer in a state where it declares that "the best way" to do X is to use library Y, and then warns in the next sentence that you should never use library Y.

Situational or potentially controversial things to maybe do

  • If there's a well-defined set of circumstances in which the old answer is still valid, consider editing the answer to mention them. For instance, if a library only works in Python 3.7 and earlier, you could edit the answer to begin

    In Python 3.7 and earlier,

    and then add a parenthetical at the end saying

    (In Python 3.8 and above, this answer will no longer work, because [bla bla bla])

  • If (and only if) the old answer is outright dangerous, consider adding a warning to the answer about the risks. If this warning outright contradicts the answer in some way or amounts to a recommendation to never use the answer, then set it apart from the answer itself, either with a horizontal rule or by abusing a quote block at the top of the answer as a banner, and word it in a way that makes clear it's commentary on the answer that follows.

    To be clear, don't do this merely because an answer is wrong, or outdated. Wrong and outdated answers are everywhere, and this can't be our routine way of dealing with them. To justify doing this, there had better be some sort of catastrophe - like a significant security vulnerability - that you're saving the reader from.


In the particular case of python-certifi-win32 vs pip-system-certs, I figure I'd suggest that you:

  • comment on existing answers to note the deprecation
  • add your own competing answers recommending pip-system-certs, where nobody else has done so
  • maybe downvote existing answers if you think they're no longer useful
  • maybe edit existing answers to note the Python version range for which they still work (if you know, or are willing to spend time figuring out, what that version range is)
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    "Wrong and outdated answers are everywhere, and this can't be our routine way of dealing with them." The problem is that we don't have any way of dealing with wrong and outdated answers that's even remotely effective. If anything, the most outdated answers are the hardest to deal with, because the time they spent collecting upvotes means more downvotes are required to deprioritize them. Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 19:57
  • I edited the question to address some points you had made.
    – sourcream
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 1:21
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    @KarlKnechtel the help center actually gives you the tool: Editing is important for keeping questions and answers clear, relevant, and up-to-date.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 1:47
  • But what about the cases where the "updated" status is that the answer is simply unsalvageable? For example: an answer details how to solve the problem by using a particular API, but then the company offering that API stops offering access to it and there is no known alternative? Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 1:49
  • 1
    @KarlKnechtel in that case the question itself is outdated, isn't it? You may deal with it as appropriate. Last time I seen something like that happened, we just outright deleted the questions.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 1:55
  • It's hard to construct a concise example on the fly, but I'm confident that there are cases that aren't covered by either of those options. Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 1:59
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    @KarlKnechtel the help center is less concise than that, it says "If you see something that needs improvement, click edit!", so just tell yourself that that's the generic guidance, which covers very much any possible case.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 9:45
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Note:
This answer is based on the original revision of the question. It does not address the latest version, which may mean that this answer may not be representative of my views for its current state.

TL;DR: Post a new answer using the new/alternative package, and (if needed) highlight that the other package is no longer maintained.


Posting a comment on the questions (or answers) isn't a "bad idea", however, the problem with this is that comments aren't meant to be designed to be permanent, and can be deleted on a simple whim. As a result though you could use the comments to inform future users of the deprecation, there is no guarantee that said comment will still be there when future users read the post, or even review the comments (many don't).

The best thing you could do here, instead, is provide a new answer to the question, using a different solution that isn't deprecated. You mention in your question, for example, that the author of python-certifi-win32 instead recommends using pip-system-certs, so if you are familiar with using that then post an answer demonstrating how you could answer the question using it. In the same answer, if applicable, you can note that python-certifi-win32 is deprecated or no longer maintained, and that the reason you are therefore using a different solution is because of that (and that the author of python-certifi-win32 recommends pip-system-certs).

As for editing existing content, don't do this please. If you aren't confident enough to answer the question yourself, then leaving a comment is "fine", but just be aware that it may be removed. The OP of the answer, however, may well see your comment and it could inspire them to update the answer with a new solution; that's a win. If they don't, then leave it at that; the answer could well attract downvotes as time goes on due to it no longer being useful.

Don't edit a new solution into the existing answers either; this will conflict with the original user's intent which is a reason to decline edits in the review queue (which your edits will go to as a <2k reputation user). Warcupine also notes:

No, then people would have to combine their votes between two different solutions in one answer, best to let them up/down vote each individually.

Though this is true, I don't think this is the right reason; some answers can and do evolve over time as new features are added to products and some users continue to maintain those answers by adding the new features of the technology to that answer. That isn't wrong; it continually improves the answer and makes it more useful to users who have newer technology, leaves older solution in place for users who are yet to upgrade, while still not invalidating the votes of those of the past as the portions of the post they upvoted still exists.

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    And "Trending Answer" will push your answer up to the front faster than accumulating enough votes to outscore the current top answers. Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 20:08
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    @Michael except that, as some users are quickly discovering, is not the silver bullet as was sold to be, and more often than not fails to achieve that purpose.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 2, 2022 at 21:30
  • "Post a new answer using the new/alternative package, and (if needed) highlight that the other package is no longer maintained." The site utopic goal was to have 1 community maintained answer. Not multiple competing answers where the difference is trivial.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 19:09
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    Once again, you miss the point of the site @Braiam . The aim of the site is not to have 1 Uber answer per question... Having multiple different answers is encouraged.
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 19:26
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    Oh, please educate me on which is the point of the site, other than "library of detailed, high-quality answers"? How having multiple competing answers, many of which do not explain when they are relevant, helps that purpose? Also, if what you say is true, why the site help center says "If you see something that needs improvement, click edit!" Is the site being deliberately misleading?
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 19:44
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    I think you answered your own comment there, @Braiam . "High quality answers". Plus, if only 1 answer were allowed, then you wouldn't be able to post an answer after one was posted. And improvements can be typographical errors, format fixing, wording changes. Improving isn't "changing the answer entirely". If you knock down a house and build a new one, you didn't improve the old house; you destroyed it.
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 3, 2022 at 19:50
  • @Larnu Are you really going to go that low? It's a collection, obviously there would be answers, a collection rarely has a single element. Likewise a library rarely would have a single book. So, please, save us such nonconstructive argument and bring something that has some substance to it, rather than going for the low hanging fruit. I expected more of a reputable user.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 1:45
  • @Braiam as always, you are free to post your own answers if you disagree. You can do this, as the idea of not for one uber answer.
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 5:17
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    Except that the issues on this answer should be addressed directly. Your position will bring us back to the era of forums, with each user adding a post, which we all universally agree that it sucks. This selfishness that no one can edit someone else answer will continue destroying the site. The ideal logic was that every question should have "a single, highly-upvoted, community-audited, well-maintained, canonical answer that would be easy to find"
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 10:34
  • How has this answer become the most upvoted? It suggests not editing existing answers which could literally break someone's Python environment... Although I don't think answers should be completely revamped to change their message, it is definitely very important that a warning is added to the top of each of these answers, advising people not to use them / which versions to use them for. This answer suggests that old answers should be left completely unchanged, which is a hazard for people reading them. Downvotes will not do anything to fix this, especially where answers have got 1000score
    – Lecdi
    Commented Aug 5, 2022 at 12:55
  • @Lecdi if you read the header, you'll note it's based on the original revision. The information such as that it kills pip didn't exist then.
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 5, 2022 at 13:03
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The existing guidance, basically "don't edit answers to add changes introduced by new versions of stuff the answer is talking about", was not written with this scenario in mind.

When not to edit existing answers, but post a competing answer instead:

  • A new version of a library introduces a new way of doing things (so you can now use other classes/methods/configs).
  • A new language version allows for more succinct syntax (so you can reduce 20 lines to 2).
  • A new platform or runtime version allows you to do things that were previously impossible to do (so instead of linking against 5 other libraries, you can now do 1 syscall).

In all of those cases, the old version doesn't break anything, in fact, it keeps working and the answers are still valid for people who are referencing/compiling/running against those versions for which the answers were written.

What we have here, is not just a new way of doing things. Not only does the old way, advertised in many answers, not work anymore, it actually breaks developers' machines.

So yes, please, add to those answers something like a banner:

Warning: the approach explained in this answer was written for Python 2 / Windows 10 / whatever, but will break your environment when you're on Windows 11 / Python 3 / whatever, see [link to explanation]. Use the pip-foo-bar tool instead, see [this answer].

This does not deviate from the author's original intent. Their intent was to help the developer generate certificates. If you use their approach now, you will break your development machine. That was not the author's intent.

Environments change. Libraries and languages, once released, do not. This is a case of the former.

Competing answers will not (always) rise to the top in time. In fact, we cannot trust people's votes at all for this. They will happily upvote code introducing an SQL injection vulnerability, as long as it gets their project going again. A warning for actively harmful answers is required, and support for this by Stack Overflow is long overdue.

Until that is added to the platform: manually edit harmful answers, please.

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    Yeah, I think this is the right guidance for this case, and would've given rather different guidance in my answer had the question here included the point about the old package breaking new environments from the start. There's a huge difference between a case where the author stopped maintaining an old package and it errors out when you try to use it in new environments and a case where merely installing the package in a modern environment will break your environment; they clearly merit different responses!
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 11:37
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    Now this is an answer I can get behind. No justifications trying to expand guidance to allow for wholly rewriting answers. Support for writing new answers that suggest the new methods of doing things. Adding a warning to existing answers warning of potential problems is fine; rewriting those answers is where the problem comes. Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 11:43
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    This answer still causes SO to devolve to a forum rife with bad information. Also, users are known to ignore warnings and try the answer anyways to "beat the odds". Harmful answers have no place on the platform, warnings or not.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 12:01
  • @Braiam but then we're in "answer vetting" territory, and that's an extremely hard problem to solve, and Stack Overflow doesn't want to. If they did, I for one would nuke every answer that uses string concatenation to build SQL, every answer suggesting to run Windows Services as LocalSystem to bypass filesystem permissions, every answer suggesting client-side validation for a server-side problem, every answer that returns one object as an object in JSON, and multiple objects as a JSON array, every answer that isn't O(1) or at most O(log n) and all posts about PHP and JavaScript.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 12:17
  • @CodeCaster "extremely hard problem to solve" voting doesn't solve that problem either, heck SE introduced the trending thing that doesn't do anything either, so maybe we should just deal with it without trying to be smart: edit the content and leave it better.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 16:08
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    @Braiam you can't allow user A to edit user B's answer to have it say something entirely different, because who is going to check that? One solution would be to drop numeric scoring entirely, and instead have proper "reviews" of answers, on subjects like performance, security, maintainability and correctness. But that would be another site altogether, you can't retrofit that to 25 million answers
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 16:21
  • @CodeCaster can you show a single example where that happened? Everyone is afraid of such thing happening and the only time I've seen someone doing it was literally to be disrespectful (to me, an on meta). I've done the opposite and I'm sure you can see that by looking at my edits done to answers, and find that... it's actually less common than what you think. (As an aside, who cares what the answer said if it doesn't work anymore?)
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 22:23
  • @Braiam my point is that it should not be and is not allowed, hence you do not see it happening much. If it were, it would become a free-for-all mess pretty soon.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 5, 2022 at 12:47
-1

The help center backs you up to edit the content:

All contributions are licensed under Creative Commons, and this site is collaboratively edited, like Wikipedia. If you see something that needs improvement, click edit!

Editing is important for keeping questions and answers clear, relevant, and up-to-date. If you are not comfortable with the idea of your contributions being collaboratively edited by other trusted users, this may not be the site for you.

Meta users have been given the idea that their behavior is welcomed here, when SE own documentation says that you should welcome edits to your post. It's a misguided argument based on "intent" when the very author suggest changing even what the author typed "if someone writes an adequate, accurate, helpful answer, save for using realloc instead of malloc, then posting a new answer seems like overkill". See how something apparently "critical" is fair game. The case you propose is more trivial than that, the name of the module itself.

If the author posted an adequate, accurate, helpful answer, save for using an now outdated package, then posting a new answer is overkill.

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    "If you see something that needs improvement, click edit!" is not an excuse to edit whatever one wishes in a post. Someone may believe that the K&R brace style improves all code, but we discourage them from editing all code using braces to match that style. That part of the docs is also not saying that you should welcome any and all edits to your post. The purpose is to introduce the collaborative editing and wiki-like environment to users more accustomed to forums where posts are only editable by the post authors or mods. This case may differ, but that doc does not support the outcome. Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 2:46
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    @HereticMonkey that's a strawman argument. I'm not speaking about brace style, the question isn't asking about brace style, you will never see me arguing about brace style, since that's between me and my code. Can you put an actual argument about what we are discussing? Like "update the post as it ages"? Changing package names? Not bikeshed arguments about "code style". You took a generic argument like "edit whatever one wishes in a post", put an example that nobody is arguing about like "brace style" and then started disagreeing with me. Come on! Be more productive.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 9:52
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    I'm aghast at all the other answers and comments here. "Leave answers promoting an outdated and not working alone, just post your own!". No, the workflow has changed and the answers aren't valid anymore, edit them to warn future visitors, puh-lease. How is the "outdated answers project" coming along? Exactly.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 10:41
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    As I stated stated on my answer, "If you see something that needs improvement, click edit!" doesn't mean mean "continuously add new answers to a single answer to make an uber answer". Improvement can be many things; formatting, language, fixing typographical error. If you rebuild a house you didn't improve the house, it's a new house; if you have a new answer, provide a new answer. Using a new/alternative package is a new answer, and so should be posted as a new answer.
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 10:44
  • Having an answer with all the answers makes it IMPOSSIBLE to tell what part of the answer is useful and what isn't. Consider an answer that provides solutions for inserting data with SQL; each has been added by different users with little to no explanation. It provides 4 examples: the first uses raw injection, the second "sanitised" injection, the 3rd a parametrised query, and the 4th a stored procedure. If it's upvoted, which is the useful answer? You have no idea. If these were in separate answers, you could vote on them individually.
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 10:47
  • So has anyone posted a new answer, @CodeCaster ? Has anyone given that new answer a bounty? Has anyone left a comment under the existing answer to answer the OP that their solution may be a problem in Ubuntu 22.04 so that they themselves may want to address that?
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 10:50
  • @CodeCaster wow, I didn't exactly expect something to break that way on Ubuntu, considering that they are derived from Debian. Could you point me towards that content so it can be improved?
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 10:50
  • @Larnu SO try very hard to move away from that forum behavior. Answers aren't written on stone, that once posted, they can't be improved upon.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 10:51
  • I have never said that they can't be improved, @Braiam .
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 10:51
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    "Having an answer with all the answers makes it IMPOSSIBLE" we don't need an answer with all the answer @Larnu, we need an answer that works. Heck, we already have an answer with "3 answers" and it's not an wildly mess. Literally everything is contained in 3 sentences.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 10:52
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    @Braiam making a partial quote to try and make your point correct doesn't work.
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 10:52
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    @Larnu well, making a strawman argument doesn't work either, like my previous comment is pointing at, or my response to Monkey. So, try to make an holistic argument and maybe I would stop pointing out the weakness on the argument.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 10:54
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    "try to make argument" @Braiam See my answer. I won't be engaging any more.
    – Thom A
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 10:54
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    @Braiam Your "holistic" argument basically says, "edit whatever you want". That doesn't work. Larnu and I have pointed out the holes in your holistic arguments and you've called them "strawmen". And again, I said that this case may differ, but what you are claiming is supported by the "documentation", isn't. On top of that, the answer seeks to denigrate anyone who disagrees with you. Is it surprising that we're going to disengage? Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 11:36
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    @HereticMonkey "edit whatever you want" again with strawmans arguments. No, it does not say that. Lets me quote myself again quoting the help center: If you see something that needs improvement, click edit! That doesn't mean "edit whatever you want", that means "edit whatever you see that can be improved".
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 4, 2022 at 12:12
-2

TL;DR: I agree (at least partially) with CodeCaster.

Suppose that in 1990 Quincey asks, “I work in the evening.  How can I watch my favorite TV shows, which are broadcast in the evening?”  Andy answers “Take a three-hour ‘‘lunch break’’, go home and watch your shows.”  Bobby says “Take a TV into your workplace and watch your programs there.”  Charlie says “Get a VCR”, and explains how to do that and how it answers the question.  Charlie’s answer is accepted and up voted; the others are down voted and maybe deleted.

25 years later Dave edits Charlie’s answer to say “Get a DVR”.  This is not totally destroying Charlie’s answer and replacing it with a new one.  This does not turn it into a fundamentally different answer.  This does not conflict with the author’s original intent.  This is maintaining Charlie’s answer to keep it current, and keep it correct and useful in the evolving world.

Or, in 2010, somebody writes “cell phone”, and, by 2035 that term is totally passé, and somebody edits it to say “mobile phone”.

As a matter of logistics, I would advise against actually deleting any part of the original answer.  Rather, use the <del> tag to strike through the obsolete information, and make it clear that you are changing the details of the answer, with a footnote explaining why.  Note that this is counter to advice that is often given for editing (especially when the author of a post edits it in response to comments).

It doesn’t make sense to post a totally new answer saying “Get a DVR” and then wait another 25 years for it to get up voted to the same score as Charlie’s answer.

Loosely related: Confusing rolling back of edits by the moderator.

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