41

I could find five of them:

that, regardless there are some questions using these tags, it's very unlikely they have to do with particular issues related to these patch ruby versions.
Not sure what's the usual procedure, if those questions should be moved/merged to the minor versions and where applies or it's ok to have such detail level when we're talking about tags. At least a quick glance to other language version tags like Python or Java, I can't find that exist something like this.

5
  • 1
    They exist for a reason. Versions between different languages usually mean that semantics between versions are divergent.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 23, 2022 at 23:28
  • 25
    Most of these seem reaaaallllly uncommonly used, and it seems like they're being used instead of the ruby-x.y tags that would make the posts significantly easier to find.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Feb 23, 2022 at 23:29
  • 17
    @Makoto but can you say that there are differences?! 2.1.3..2.1.4 changelog is basically empty, because it was two security vulnerabilities that didn't alter any syntax.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 23, 2022 at 23:33
  • Is it possible to have tags like ruby-pre-1.8.7? If there are poor souls still stuck on Ruby 1 for some reason, then the pre-1.8.7 and post-1.8.6 worlds for them are also very different.
    – lilole
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 20:48
  • [ruby], [ruby], [ruby], [ruby], know what you're doing, doing to me? Commented Mar 10, 2022 at 6:29

3 Answers 3

42

Creating synonyms/merging (e.g., - > ) seems like the right approach here.

It seems like these patch-version tags are being used instead of the ruby-x.y tags (...at best: there are also some uses that are just completely wrong) that would make the posts significantly easier to find. Having a version of a question for every patch release seems very duplicative, and it's quite difficult for most askers to know in advance if their question is somehow specific to that patch release.

Perhaps the idea behind these patch-version tags is that authors should tag all of , , and , but that isn't a reasonable solution: it's both a significant percentage of the five allowed tags, as well as something that, in practice, people are not doing at all. They're just tagging the exact version they're using.

4
  • 19
    It's just way too fine-grained. In Python we only have 3.x tag and already those get misused all the time. Unsurprisingly, most questions asked on SO today don't have to do with specific changes between Python versions. Users just check their environment and figure that if they are using 3.9 they should use that tag. Ugh, no. But no amount of tag wiki excerpts can change this. So we should have as few version-specific tags as possible. Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 13:12
  • 15
    It's not just that most users won't read the excerpts, wikis, etc; most people asking questions are relatively new to what they're asking about. That means they often have no idea what version the feature they need help with was added (breaking changed) in; and thus can't correctly decide if the the basic Lang tag is correct, if they need Lang-X, Lang-X.Y, or Lang-X.Y.Z. Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 15:18
  • @AndrasDeak Not only that, anyone that knows python 2 is capable of answering most of python 3 questions.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 17:27
  • 1
    @AndrasDeak whenever version labels get rolled out (is that still happening) that could go a long way to fixing the issue with Python.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 21:32
9

As a longtime Ruby user, I can vouch that it's very rare to have breaking changes between minor releases. And it's still rare between major ones.

I can recall there was some breaking change back in a patchlevel in Ruby 1.8. And recently there were some minor [potential] breaking changes for Ruby 2.7. The Ruby community learned hard lessons about backward compatibility a long time ago, and overall they handle it great. (Mainly the issue is forced because of Rails.)

Experienced Rubyists asking SO for help will probably tag major.minor at least, and may rarely include patchlevel. This is because they probably see unexpected behavior compared to older versions, or are simply asking about new features.

But newbie Rubyists will probably want simply "ruby" or "ruby-3" -- just the major version sometimes.

On top of this, there are many cases where newbies will use Rails related tags, even when Rails has nothing to do with their question. Yes this is a separate issue, but it does help inform whether patchlevel tags are helping most Ruby users on SO.

So I guess the short version of this answer is "no", we don't really need the patchlevels in tags.

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  • 1
    "But newbie Rubyists will probably want simply "ruby" or "ruby-3"" I doubt it. Most users use the most specific, rather than the generic one.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 20:18
  • 8
    But newbies won't really care if they don't see patchlevels. If they actually check their Ruby version, and see "2.7.4", it's not a problem to let them select a "ruby-2.7" tag.
    – lilole
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 20:20
  • The reason for having version-specific tags is not specifically about 'breaking changes', but also about new features.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 20:33
  • 3
    @TylerH Fair point, but in Ruby the patchlevel never indicates new features.
    – lilole
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 20:33
  • @lilole I agree we don't need incremental patch tag versions (so I agree with OP above that we should burninate those tags). However, the answer you wrote seems to focus on minor version (one dot, vs two for incrementals) updates, which are a different matter.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 20:36
  • 3
    @TylerH I guess I'm making a case that for SO Ruby tags, we don't need the patchlevel ones at all, and we rarely need the minor version ones, and we surely need the major version ones.
    – lilole
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 20:41
  • "But newbies won't really care if they don't see patchlevels" they do care, to the point that they will use the patchlevel tag instead of [ruby]. People has an idea that they need to categorize things as precise as possible, tags don't need to do that.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 21:57
  • @Braiam This seems to partially contradict the answer you added earlier, that versions are not needed at all. Where does version go if not the tag? Is it easier or harder to search for version-specific answers without the tag? When I create a new SO question, and start checking "ruby-?" tags, only a few versions actually have the patchlevel. Most Ruby 2.x versions don't have patchlevel tags.
    – lilole
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 22:25
  • 1
    @lilole People want them, but they don't need them. If they can, people will use them, even if they are not helpful.
    – khelwood
    Commented Feb 25, 2022 at 12:53
  • @lilole as khelwood says: they do care to use them because they want to give the more specific information they can provide, but they need them not, because answerers follow the most generic ones: ruby, ruby-on-rails, etc. They "want" them just in the sense that they think it would be useful.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 25, 2022 at 14:32
  • 2
    The real danger with all of the subtags is you get some new user who uses the subtag and only the subtag, not realizing that they're cutting them off from more help by not using the parent tag. [ruby] has 108k watchers. Most of these version-specific tags have none.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Feb 25, 2022 at 14:44
  • 1
    @Machavity If SO makes it harder to find relevant answers when version tags exist, then it should be a separate question. It looks like this particular question is resolved, especially now that we know we're talking about removing FIVE patchlevel tags. 🤦‍♂️
    – lilole
    Commented Feb 25, 2022 at 15:45
  • @lilole it will not make them harder to find, answerers will just include that information on their answer and readers will just include that in their search terms. Tags, despite all what you believe, are meant for answerers, not askers, to find questions they are able to answer, not for readers to find answers. Remember, you tag questions, not answers.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 10:51
  • I agree that the version tags are simply noise. But the trouble is... you don't stop them from appearing. I don't really think there is much that you can really do to keep that clean unless you start policing it. How long are you going to keep that up? We can't have nice things.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 11:05
-3

All these version tags should be simply removed and replaced by ruby. No synonimization; just straight removal. There are fewer changes between Ruby 2 and 3 (mainly backend) than Python's.

Most of the migration path is about depreciated features that became actual errors and implicit behavior that became explicit. Otherwise, all your 2.x code should just work on 3.x. To my knowledge, there isn't any code from the lows 2.x branch that shouldn't work on the last 2.7 version.

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  • 6
    The system calls this a "merge": a moderator could merge each of the version-specific tags into the main "ruby" tag. Merging and synonymization often go hand-in-hand, but they are actually orthogonal concepts in the implementation. A tag can be merged into another tag, essentially renaming and eliminating it, without creating a synonym. Or, a synonym can be created without merging the tag, creating a lot of potential confusion and wrong tag counts (this is often done intentionally, however, to make it possible to reverse a contested merge, with the mod going back later to merge).
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 11:02
  • @CodyGray are you aware that my proposed solution is "whatever happens, don't let these tags live in the system"? In other words, I don't ask for merging, I ask for removal and replacement (were appropriated). How it happens matters me not, so long as the tags doesn't exist in any way, shape or form. And yes, I know that merging could achieve that, but I don't limit my options.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 11:13
  • Is this post suggesting doing away with minor version Ruby tags as well, or just the incremental version tags?
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 14:41
  • 5
    Seems to be suggesting the removal of all version tags (for ruby) to me, @TylerH , So not even [ruby-2]/[ruby-3] (I realise the first does not even exist), just [ruby]. Though i don't write in ruby, I suspect that isn't a truly great idea. I would suggest that at least the major version should have separate tags; though I can't comment for minor (as how much changes can be very different based on the product).
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 17:03
  • @Larnu why do you think it isn't a great idea? There are zero practical differences between ruby 2.7 and 3.x. You could have upgraded the code and as long as you avoid the only two gotchas (which you should have been avoiding already) your code should work exactly the same way. Ruby isn't python, where they changed print() and utf8. Or, can you show an example of a major breaking change that I haven't already addressed?
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 17:25
  • 9
    @Braiam If there are zero practical differences between Ruby 2.7 and Ruby 3.x then they probably would not have released Ruby 3.x versions. It's unclear what your arguments are for removing minor version tags. The repeated comparison to Python seems irrelevant... obviously Ruby isn't Python. .NET isn't Python either, but we don't compare it to Python to determine what tags it needs.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 19:35
  • @TylerH how about you demonstrate me that there are practical differences. I've already made my argument on my answer, either try to find evidence that shows that is wrong or drop this discussion. Another user is also having the same argument.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 20:17
  • 8
    Umm, I actually agree with @Larnu and TylerH on this. Deleting all the versions from Ruby tags is not helpful. But having that 3rd patchlevel value in tags is not helpful either.
    – lilole
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 20:28
  • 2
    @Braiam Are you telling me there are no new things or no things that are done different in newer versions of Ruby compared to older ones? What do the different version releases include, then? Just from a cursory google search, I see many blog posts talking about things new in Ruby 3 that weren't in Ruby 2, for example. Things like fibers for concurrency, automatic garbage collection, and more. Not to mention this quite large list of gem conflicts migrating from 2.7 to 3.0: github.com/ruby/ruby/blob/v3_0_0/…
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 20:35
  • @TylerH the gem conflicts weren't conflicts, they were promotions. Try to inform yourself what does that mean, spoiler alert: it doesn't mean conflict, just the difference between implicit and explicit. It's like in html you would need to import javascript or css instead of presuming that those tags are recognized. Something that good programmers should do anyways.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 21:55
  • 1
    @lilole and yet, you haven't show any scenario where it was useful. The question itself shows several scenarios where it is not useful, like people not tagging [ruby] at all.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 21:56
  • 1
    @Braiam I'm not sure what you mean. The question is whether the "patchlevel" in "major.minor.patchlevel" tags is really needed. I suggest that it isn't. Whether versions in tags helps find useful answers on SO at all is a different question. I'm making a big assumption that SO's searching/filtering features work well.
    – lilole
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 22:30
  • 4
    @Braiam At the risk of sounding a bit rude, did you bother to read the full section there? There are many gems that were merged into 3.0, yes, but not only does that mean the normal way of including them in Ruby code from 2.x is no longer the same, there are also several removals concerning gems. I am not a Ruby expert, but I suspect you'll run into an issue if you try to use a gem that is no longer there.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 24, 2022 at 23:15
  • 4
    @Braiam You are focusing on the forward compatibility of 2.7 code on 3.0. What about new functionality and features in 3.0?... "There are a whole bunch of new additions like type checking, ractor, and scheduler, along with improvements to the currently existing paradigms, like performance, fibers, memory, concurrency, and static analysis". Putting aside the discussion on minor patch levels, it appears that you also arguing that all those changes don't even justify a separate [ruby-3] tag? Is that the case? (Apologies if I am misunderstanding you.)
    – skomisa
    Commented Feb 25, 2022 at 1:41
  • 1
    "Most of the migration path is about depreciated features that became actual errors and implicit behavior that became explicit." Yes. But that's more than enough to break complex systems depending on dozens of gems. def foo(k: 1); p(k); end; foo({k: 42}) returns 42 on Ruby-2.6, returns 42 on Ruby-2.7, with a deprecation warning, and throws an ArgumentError on Ruby-3. How do you plan to answer a Ruby question without this information? Oh, that's right, you don't. You apparently never answered a Ruby question on SO (Edit: just one, actually). Commented Feb 25, 2022 at 13:53

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