72

After two edits to a post to remove salutations (and fix typos) the OP rolled back the revisions and edited this into the post:

Edit: Can you like Fuckoff Mr. "insert user name" ? what a shitty hostile website, go ahead and ban me. So insisting on removing "Thank you in advance"

Why was the rude or abusive flag disputed?

This also raises an issue that the revision that addressed the editor by name is still in the revision history.

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  • 12
    Was the whole post rude or abusive? If not, then I kind of agree with the dispute; you are flagging the entire post after all. You would have been better off raising a custom flag in my opinion, disengaging and (optionally) rolling back the edit.
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 14:52
  • 35
    @Larnu rolling-back would have been wrong since the OP was already engaged in a roll-back war.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 14:55
  • 15
    I would, personally, suggest that rolling back rude and abusive language is never wrong; regardless of rollback wars. If a rollback war was already in effect, then disengage sooner next time; as such things already raise automatic flags for the mods.
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 14:56
  • 28
    A problem there is that custom post flags tend to take longer to process than "red flags", so the rudeness could be there for weeks and is a major "broken window". I likely would've gone rude or abusive too and it's good to get official guidance on cases like this.
    – Erik A
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 14:56
  • 3
    The linked duplicate is different from this post because it's about a single word while the post in this question addressed the editor by name to insult them explicitly.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 15:11
  • 9
    @yivi The rollbacks matter. I'd like to see a mod confirm this guidance still holds if the rudeness is blatant insults and gets rolled back.
    – Erik A
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 15:13
  • 3
    The "edit" is noise @bad_coder but I agree this is not a duplicate. The order of operations/direction of what's going on here is reversed from each of the duplicates.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 15:17
  • 8
    @nbk you didn't read the clarification in the comments, an editor doesn't necessarily notice that an edit was rolled back if they stumble across the same post a few days or weeks later. (You realize that removing salutations is a standard editing guideline?)
    – bad_coder
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 15:46
  • 32
    Whether or not the user wants the edits is irrelevant when it comes to removing this kind of content.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 16:07
  • 17
    @nbk a poster does not "own" the post they made - as soon as they hit the submisson button, they irrevocably licensed their post under the CC-BY-SA conditions which includes free modification. An OP disliking an edit is no ground to let it be 'cause they "do not want it" - this should not even be a consideration when editing - the only thing that does matter is if the post is left in a better shape as before.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 17:22
  • 8
    @yivi Meta doesn't work like that. It's not just a place to discuss the general use/moderation of the site, but it is also a place where any user is welcome to raise an informal support ticket about a specific issue or ask for help about site mechanics. You cannot close that because someone had a similar issue back in 2015! This being an unique issue aside: back in 2015 this was an utterly different site with completely different culture, different CoC, different community consensus, different moderation and so on.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 8:23
  • 6
    @Lundin Meta does work like that as well. Please stop strying to instruct me, just accept we disagree and move on.
    – yivi
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 8:23
  • 6
    @yivi It's not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing, moderation isn't carried out based on opinions, but based on policies and community consensus of how the site works. Feel free to make counter-arguments if you think I have misunderstood any of those policies...
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 8:25
  • 6
    @Zoe Do you think it is a good idea as a moderator to close down discussion and/or support meta threads regarding inconsistent/incorrect moderator actions currently happening with the current moderator team, as a duplicate to some meta posts from 2015/2017? (When an entirely different CoC was used.)
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 18, 2022 at 8:05
  • 5
    @Lundin That sounds like a separate Meta question to me.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 18, 2022 at 11:35

4 Answers 4

-88

It was disputed because the remedy - open to anyone - was to edit out the profanity laden attack. There was no need to get the moderators involved. It would have also been quicker than flagging and waiting for a moderator to see and act on the flag.

If the OP had reinserted it then I would have been more likely to mark the flag as helpful and even take further action if it was warranted.

The goal of moderation is to defuse situations like this as quickly and quietly as possible. A third party stepping in to edit the post would have done that.

I handled the flag in the way I did because I thought it was a one-off and uncharacteristic for the user. I didn't think that it warranted deleting the post with a rude/abusive flag thus giving the user a 100 point reputation penalty.

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    @bad_coder That sounds like a new question. I'm not objecting to answering that, but you're basically asking for policy, which I don't recall being specifically discussed. It's something that reasonably deserves its own discussion in a wider forum than just in comments here. I would, however, note that even if the post was deleted as R/A, it would still be in the edit history.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 20:54
  • 57
    This seems like trying to foist a catch-22 onto readers. They already had their edits rolled back by OP, yet your suggestion is... edit the post? Is there official guidance on how many times users should rollback/edit before flagging? Is the answer "always at least one more than you did"?
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 22:59
  • 73
    @ChrisF No, I'm talking about what OP said above. The question was edited to remove noise twice, and then the OP rolled the edits back and introduced a rude message. Why should the rude message also have to be edited out (via a third revision) when OP is clearly sending a message they intentionally want to be rude and keep noise or harmful content into their post? It sounds like you're saying three edits is not enough here. Or at least, that OP editing in harmful content has to itself be rolled back, even if the harmful content was introduced in response to initial edits.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 23:27
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    Which seems... excessive.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 15, 2022 at 23:29
  • 32
    "There was no need to get the moderators involved" Cool, the CoC has been silently changed again? Because it looks the same stackoverflow.com/conduct. I've been given moderator warnings for telling people that they can find the answer to their question in the first chapter of a beginner-level book of the topic. I've never told anyone to f* off however. Consistent moderation much?
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 7:53
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    @ChrisF From the CoC: "Enforcement. We take your reports seriously. Those who don’t follow the Code of Conduct in good faith may face repercussions deemed appropriate by our moderation team. This is how moderators generally handle misconduct: Warning For most first-time misconduct, moderators will remove offending content and send a warning. Most issues are resolved here. " Is the CoC wrong or do you follow a different one?
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 8:54
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    @Braiam There's a quite a difference between rude/gruff/snark comments etc and hurling outright insults and profane language targeted at another user.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 9:02
  • 40
    I'm getting very mixed signals from the moderator team. One month ago I received a moderator warning for posting this comment: "This is very basic stuff. You should study the if statement, arrays, pointers and strings in your favourite beginner-level C book." This is clearly not acceptable behavior - instead I should have written "Can you like Fuckoff Mr. "insert user name" ? what a shitty hostile website" and that would have been fine. If this isn't hypocrisy and wildly inconsistent moderation, then I don't know what is.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 9:08
  • 20
    @Braiam As in, it is fine for new users stumbling in from google to throw a tantrum and hurling profanities. Then do the same next week under a new account. But veteran users that have been contributing to the site for 10+ years and done their fair share of site moderation themselves should be constantly harassed. No, I'm not going to accept that. If that's truly how the site is moderated, then the solution is to stop using this site.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 9:20
  • 8
    @Braiam Also, quotation needed "the CoC puts more scrutiny on established members". I can't find this in the CoC. Am I missing something here or you too using a different one than stackoverflow.com/conduct?
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 9:21
  • 12
    @Lundin You're missing a really big and important difference between the two scenarios: questions can be edited by anyone with at least 2000 reputation; comments can only be removed by the comment's author or a moderator. Which is exactly the justification given in this answer: that the situation was better handled by the user themselves by editing, than adding to a moderator's workload by flagging.
    – IMSoP
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 10:07
  • 18
    @Braiam I remember a certain incident when someone had their moderator rights removed for not following non-existent text in the CoC. Supposedly moderators will be held to even higher standards than veteran users. To the point where there doesn't need to be a reason for taking disciplinary actions against them. So yeah you may have a point that the higher the expectations on a user, the more likely they are to be disciplined through subjective moderation based on whims, opinions and moods by individual moderators and CMs. But do we want that system?
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 10:08
  • 27
    @IMSoP Regardless, you are missing the entire point that disciplinary actions by moderators should be handed out based on user behavior, not based on how convenient it is for regular users to remove such unacceptable content. It's not ok to tell someone to f* off just because it was made inside a question/answer or because it is easy for other users to remove that. Speaking of different standards, I was under the impression that we also held questions/answers to a higher standard than comments.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 10:24
  • 25
    @Braiam "moderators now have to babysit every post that has a rude commentary" - given that dealing with rule-breaking is one of the core responsibilities of being a moderator... yes. Every post with rude commentary should go through the moderation process. So you would rather have users freely insult others as often as they want without any consequences, as long as they put it in a post (so it can be edited out)? If yes, then that sounds like it would be a pretty miserable site. If no, then how do you expect mods to become aware of a user regularly insulting others, if not through flags?
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 21:10
  • 25
    @ChrisF When someone demonstrates such behavior, they need a swift and strong message that their actions will not be tolerated here. They don't need their behavior swept under the rug. Make it clear to them that they either abide by the CoC and treat people with respect, or they are not welcome here.
    – mason
    Commented Feb 18, 2022 at 14:22
98

If the text as quoted was present in a post or comment, then it's pretty much a crystal clear violation of several bullets of the site's Code of Conduct. This flag should obviously never have been disputed and these kind of offensive posts must absolutely get flagged for moderator attention, not just to remove it, but to take disciplinary actions against the user who posted it.

Moderators can make mistakes too, so normally I wouldn't make a fuss about this. But given the unacceptable answer you got from a moderator here "There was no need to get the moderators involved.", I would recommend escalating this to Community Managers, because clearly some moderators are confused about what their duties are. Sure, regular users can and should edit out offensive content, but we should also flag such to moderators who can hand out warnings or suspensions.

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    Better think about what we really want moderators to be: agents of de-escalation... or agents of punishment. The former may involve a bit of the latter, but that doesn't mean we get to shift the goal post.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 8:51
  • 22
    @E_net4thecurator I want moderators to moderate the site consistently and after some sort of consensus, such as the mandatory Code of Conduct. I don't want them to make decisions based on whims, mood or personal opinions.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 8:56
  • 22
    Interesting take. If, instead of a well-written meta question, the OP would have whined on twitter about a blatant insult in violation of the CoC and the flag on it being disputed, and had at least a modest following, imagine the response the company would've had.
    – Erik A
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 10:29
  • @ErikA Yes, it is a sad state of affairs. But in all fairness I don't think anyone has actually escalated this to CMs though, so we can't really accuse the company of being ignorant. Sure, it would be common sense to have employees monitor their own flag ship product, so that it isn't allowed to lose credibility like this, but that's another story.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 10:36
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    Genuine question: other than removing the content, what is the action you would like the moderator to have taken in this case? There has been mention of "issuing a warning", but I'm not sure what this actually looks like to the user. In my experience, new users have no understanding of the difference between high-rep users, moderators, and staff, so would they understand the difference between this "official warning" and a comment on the question from a normal user?
    – IMSoP
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 17:26
  • 2
    @IMSoP You get a notification and an email. It looks quite different from a regular user notification.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 18:18
  • 32
    @E_net4thecurator I definitely want moderators to act on intentional, deliberate defacement of posts that also include offensive language targeted at specific users, even if it's a first-time offense. At the very least, I want them to consider flags re: such behavior to be helpful. That's exactly the kind of user moderation that elected moderators are uniquely positioned (and elected) to deal with.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 20:41
  • While you are technically correct there is in my opinion no need to get all wound up over verbal abuse. The wise simply ignore it and grace more important and worthwhile things with their attention. And please don't start with a code of conduct which is the product of people who have too much time on their hands with too little to do. Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 23:41
  • 2
    @Peter-ReinstateMonica The core problem here isn't that the mods think they can ignore verbal abuse, but that the level of moderation is completely inconsistent. As I wrote in another comment thread, moderators gave me a warning one month ago for posting this comment: "This is very basic stuff. You should study the if statement, arrays, pointers and strings in your favourite beginner-level C book." This was apparently enough for the moderator team to take disciplinary actions. I should supposedly have written "f* off (name), go read a book and don't use this shitty website" instead.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 18, 2022 at 7:57
  • @TylerH I'm not sure why you mentioned me there. Moderators should indeed act, act well, and preferably act as soon as possible.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 18, 2022 at 9:01
  • 2
    @Lundin "This was apparently enough for the moderator team to take disciplinary actions." No, I very seriously doubt that. If that was the only problematic comment you'd ever posted then I agree completely that any disciplinary action was unwarranted. My guess is that this is very far from your first such offense.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 18, 2022 at 14:11
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    @cigien They also gave a couple of other very similar "you should read the first chapters of a book" comments as reason. The moderator gave some meta post as rationale and quoted "it might be a basic question, but that in itself is no reason to prevent having it asked and answered on Stack Overflow." Basically the moderator didn't like that I was remarking on users who use SO as an interactive beginner tutorial instead of reading the first chapters of beginner-level learning material. Which used to be a firm requirement before posting on SO, before the $$$quantity$$$ over quality era.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 18, 2022 at 14:21
  • 2
    1) I don't know what the requirements used to be a long time ago, but policies change over time. I know you understand that because you clearly feel this particular meta shouldn't be closed as a duplicate of posts that are several years old, since policy might have changed. 2) The warnings you received seem reasonable to me, even if you only got a warning on later offenses, instead of the first one. The CoC you quoted does say "most", not "all". Anyway, I'm sure you can poke at the language all day long, but you do seem to have missed the spirit of the warnings, which is unfortunate.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 18, 2022 at 14:46
  • 1
    @cigien Nah I got the spirit of the warnings and it seems to be "As a moderator I am above the CoC and I can therefore hand out arbitrary warnings whenever I feel like. I don't like that you think that posters should actually know something about the topic they are asking about." I did send a message back asking along the lines of what exactly in the CoC that prevents us from prompting new users in comments about making an effort into knowing the utter minimum about the topic they are asking about, but no reply.
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 18, 2022 at 15:02
  • 2
    This is starting to get off-topic, but may I ask why you want to "prompt" new users into making an effort at all? In your experience, does that actually work? Also, it's not really our place as users to give other users such advice, is it? You can give such advice if you want, but it's actually very hard to do that without coming across as condescending. I'd suggest refraining from leaving such comments.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 18, 2022 at 15:18
13

While I didn't see the context, it sounds like it was a regular, unproblematic, on-topic post that the author later edited to add a personal attack.

That personal attack was not acceptable, no matter what.

However, "rude or abusive" (RA) isn't the right flag to use in this case, because of what it can do, namely deleting and locking the post (which would also delete its answers). A mod can mark the RA flag as helpful, but it automatically changes to disputed when the flags are cleared (which a moderator needs to do to reverse any affects of RA flags). I think that a rollback would have the same effect too, at least on a post that hasn't yet gotten 6 red flags. Remember, disputed flags don't count against the flagger.

In other words, a moderator doesn't have a choice: the flag cannot be marked helpful.

The correct outcome was for the post to be rolled back to an earlier state, potentially with additional steps to make it stay that way. Someone already tried to roll back (twice?) but that didn't work. In my opinion, continuing rolling back yourself wouldn't be a good option because you expect it's going to be immediately reverted by the author, and it's possibly opening yourself up to hostility.

Therefore, the correct option would have been a custom mod flag explaining the situation, including the rollback war. The moderator can do the rollback and has a lot more options at their disposal to make it stick (anything ranging from locking to mod messaging to an actual suspension), plus more information about the user's history than you.

In fact, as a moderator on another site, I would appreciate a custom flag about abusive language that crosses the line like this, even if you were to resolve this via a rollback by yourself. No action may happen because of it (especially not a visible one), but it helps keep moderators in the loop in case a pattern does develop.


As for redaction, this usually isn't done for abusive content because it obscures what actually happened (the original content and how it was changed). It's typically only used on private information or when it legally has to, ie DMCAs.

With the exception of comments (which leave a trail only for moderators), users can see abusive content in various places if they choose to. However, the system isn't perfect in this regard; you're probably a bit more likely to be in the revision history than stumbling across a rejected abusive suggested edit. Even deleted posts are clearly marked when they're offensive, which I believe is ideal for this type of content. With the tools we have right now, it's best to clearly explain the reason why you're rolling back, since older revisions will be collapsed.

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    This is a much more useful (and relevant) explanation for why a Rude/Abusive flag would be declined for this scenario. Do you know if moderators have reached out to SE staff to request an improvement to the options moderators have when handling R/A flags on posts (e.g. being able to mark them helpful without applying any lasting post penalty)?
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 21, 2022 at 18:41
  • 1
    @TylerH Not that I know of, because "disputed" is the way to mark a spam/RA flag as somewhat helpful, while not applying the penalties. The flag isn't "declined" (which would signal that flagging was a mistake) but it's also not "helpful" (since it wouldn't be good for an otherwise ok post to be deleted). However the system could probably do a lot better job of explaining what's happening.
    – Laurel
    Commented Feb 21, 2022 at 19:00
  • 3
    "mod messaging to an actual suspension", this please. Would be nice to see mods that are actually driven by interaction instead of focusing on what flag choice to use.
    – Travis J
    Commented Feb 21, 2022 at 19:14
8

It's worth noting that the best course of action here would be the following.

  1. Revert the inappropriate edit.
  2. If you think that this might not be the last of it from that user, cast a custom flag on the post explaining the situation. Evidently, this case called for a flag due to the rollback war.

This gives us the best of both worlds: it puts a plug on the attack are while moderators are kept a record of the incident for any eventual repercussion towards the offender.

Flagging as rude/abusive is probably something that I would have liked to see as applicable to the situation, but it doesn't work so well due to how it's implemented in the system. When that flag is marked as helpful, this introduces two unilateral effects:

  • The post is deleted and marked as abusive or spam.
  • The post author loses 100 reputation points.

To the best of my knowledge, these effects are irreversible. Therefore, at least for as long as R/A flags behave this way, moderators will continue to be reluctant to applying such a penalty over a piece of offensive meta-commentary in an otherwise reasonable post. They are best reserved to posts which are unsalvageable to begin with. Custom flags for moderator attention do not have this problem, the disciplinary action can be taken based on the severity of the edit.


Should this ever result in a rollback war... well, that is just too bad. The guideline to avoid rollback wars may work fine in other cases, but when it comes to abuse, it should not be an excuse to leave offensive content unattended, because this is something that should not happen in the first place.

In the event that moderators are unable to attend to these events in a timely manner, then we have a problem more serious than a rollback war. It means that the platform has become a paradise playground for trolls.

See also:

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    Reverting the inappropriate edit will further escalate though... How do you see it as a de-escalation? Not saying I disagree with the 'keep editing and report', but completely failing to understand the comment about again editing the post being a de-escalation? Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 16:24
  • 1
    @DavidMulder It's a choice between keeping the offensive meta-commentary and reverting it whenever it reappears. Hardly ideal, sure, but it's what we have available until a moderator comes around.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 17, 2022 at 16:27
  • @DavidMulder wait, someone did exactly that and didn't escalate. So it seems that it works.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 18, 2022 at 14:59

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