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Since the announcement of Collectives™ on Stack Overflow, we’ve seen a number of potential narratives emerge for how and why Collectives exist. So in the spirit of continued transparency, I thought I’d take a few moments and talk about how and why Collectives came to be and our plans for them going forward as we are planning our priorities and roadmap for next year.

First let me start with a set of non-negotiable principles:

  • We are a for-profit company. This has been true since the founders raised the first round of capital from outside investors. We have an obligation to our shareholders to create and increase value over time. This is both a reality and a position that cannot be changed.
  • Our Public Platform’s paid product strategy approaches commercializing the public platform by focusing on relevance – specifically, using our unique position to bring interested people and organizations together to engage around the collective knowledge of a specific domain or topic. We have chosen this strategy because we want to deliver real value to both users and customers rather than just creating additional or new types of advertising.
  • Stack Overflow, as a resource, is only viable if the quality of the objective content is extremely high, better than anywhere else. We cannot compromise on quality, and we expect all our products to build on this premise.

Additionally, these key insights were fundamental to the ideation of Collectives:

  • Stack Overflow is too large to be truly considered a singular community. It spans too many diverse topics, and thus doesn’t have the focus that some of the other sites on the network do. If we are to continue to grow and to thrive, sub-communities are vital, but a single tag is too small of a unit to form a community around (in most cases).
  • Almost since the creation of the site, there has been interest in enhancing the Q&A format to include long-form content. We believe this could also prove to be critical for community-building and creating new opportunities for users to engage and contribute. We are concerned that there is little value and high risk in introducing these features across the whole site.
  • We also know that tech organizations are seeking opportunities to connect with and understand the users and use cases of their products. They want the opportunity to engage more directly and support their users where they already are, in order to increase user retention and enable product adoption. Similarly, technologists value platforms that are well-supported by an active tech community, and have a strong desire to engage with the people building and supporting those platforms. They are interested in the opportunity to more easily provide feedback and learnings from their product use that could shape changes, improvements, and even new products.

From these principles and research grew the idea of Collectives. They are, at their core, sub-communities with a specific focus (to which we can add more features as we go). They are a space within the larger site for us to learn, grow, and experiment along with you all, our users, but in a controlled fashion. They are semi-isolated, although Q&A, for example, is shared with the public platform. Collectives give us the opportunity to experiment in ways that won’t leak features out. This enables new features and capabilities to be tested without endangering the underlying knowledge base, and - to meet our first priority - they fill an actual market need. They are the vehicle for us to offer an actual commercial product.

So we introduced Collectives, and there was an initial outcry against Articles. Now, to be perfectly honest, while we took strides to ensure we didn't see a repeat of past projects (i.e. Documentation), there were a lot of questions we weren't able to properly answer without community involvement: would they be permanent or ephemeral? Would they include announcements? And based on your feedback, we’ve landed on some answers to those questions (permanent, not ephemeral; no announcements, although we’ll need to find an alternative way to tackle this need) and have figured out how to position them as an enhancement to the knowledge repository.


There are, of course, other ways we could have gone to increase our revenue stream. The easy ways would have been to just incorporate more ads on our pages, or begin to relax our existing ad standards to allow more ad types (motion graphics, video, etc.), which the market has been pushing hard for. We continue to stand firm on our standards. Video or animated ads fill a customer need, but we believe they are too intrusive, distracting, and would drive higher usage of ad blockers. Your feedback across multiple Meta posts in the past have supported our ongoing stance on this issue.

We have explicitly decided against serving Real Time Bidding Ads to both Stack Overflow and all our Stack Exchange Sites that had previously been tested in the past. We were unable to ensure those ads were relevant and up to the quality levels we strive to uphold for users. We feel there continues to be a place for Display and Direct to Developer Ads on Stack Overflow, as they do generate awareness for our clients' products and services, but we didn’t feel like relaxing standards or hanging more ads on the site was the right thing to do. We wanted to do this in a way that was responsible and honors the values that built the site.

Advertising is a complicated business with an ever-changing set of privacy impacts, industry trends, and customer expectations. Between adoption of ad-blockers, upcoming changes to third party cookies, and the unpredictable nature of ad buying, we need to diversify the paid products on our public platform if we expect to continue to thrive and invest in our Public Platform capabilities.


For all these reasons, the existence of Collectives is not something we are able to debate. It’s the most viable option that we’ve found for long-term value creation on the Public Platform, which creates opportunities for both users and customer needs. We believe they also allow us to experiment and iterate more rapidly on features in a smaller, contained way. But the features that we launch, such as Articles, need community input to make them the best they can be. We are ideating and researching additional opportunities for next year and hope to move past the how and why of Collectives and work together on them, starting with Articles.

I hope this helps clear up our intentions, beliefs, and plans regarding Collectives.

We ask those of you who are willing to work with us on developing the norms and guidelines regarding Articles. Let’s move forward together to create the first new, valuable way to participate and contribute there. Please check out Philippe's post (Community input needed: The rules for collectives articles) to participate in the conversation.

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    IMO, the "Please check out Philippe's post to participate in the conversation." needs to be far more prevalent in this post. We know they're a revenue stream and that was never an issue, our concerns were the ones that would be addressed in Philippe's post, which... got a single sentence at the end of this. I was reading through this hoping for good news and it took til reaching the end to get a link to where what is important to me will actually be. Commented Nov 29, 2021 at 19:46
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    I still fail to see how they are anything more than sponsored tags 2.0. What value, at all, has it brought to the community that couldn't have existed without it?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 29, 2021 at 19:51
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    Put another way. Why all the smoke and mirrors? Sponsored tags isn't really a service people seem to have much of an issue with. why does this service, which in it's purest form gets a company's logo on as many pages as possible, need to be presented as something it's not?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 29, 2021 at 20:43
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    "We are a for-profit company." Sure but why emphasize it here? As a user I really care much less about the exact amount of proftability of SO and why should I? I will certainly use the product if it's good and if not I won't use it. The burden to balance usability and revenue should mostly be on the company, I think. I'm happy to give feedback and if you don't like it feel free to ignore it. This announcement feels a bit strange in how it comes across, focusing on revenue so much. I can only say that I respect your approach and hope your expectations come true. Commented Nov 29, 2021 at 21:59
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    This post insists quite a bit on the "we are a for-profit company" and "this is not a democracy" aspects of SO. An acknowledgment that this is only possible thanks to the thousands of volunteers who answer questions would have been appreciated. Nothing too fancy, just a "thanks" somewhere in the post... Still, it's nice to have some transparency.
    – Dada
    Commented Nov 29, 2021 at 22:05
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    @Trilarion "Sure but why emphasize it here?" -> Because that is part the motivation for Collectives, and some users (apparently including you) don't want to acknowledge that SO has to cater to investors and make money somehow. "SO needs profit" is the primary reason why Collectives will stay, even with negative feedback. That is what this announcement is supposed to explain.
    – MegaIng
    Commented Nov 29, 2021 at 22:23
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    So, this pretty much kills any of the Stack Exchange sites that were devoted to a particular subject? Like Drupal Answers or Joomla and all those? Because why would Drupal or Joomla sponsor a Collective when they already have their own SE sites? In fact, why didn't Google just create a Google Cloud Stack Exchange? Less overhead I suppose. After all, with Collectives, they pay SO, Inc. for the icon and that's basically all they have to do. No need to get moderators or anything like that. Okay, Collectives are a lazy corp's SE site :). Commented Nov 29, 2021 at 23:13
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    I appreciate the openness and transparency of this post. What I'm missing is the connection between the for-profit business and the expectation that an all-volunteer community will contribute all-volunteer time to help a for-profit company without any compensation. SO is the way it is because of community, voluntary, involvement. Spin that off? Great! Spin that off and expect volunteers to continue to give you free labor as you profit off it? Not so great. Any forward-looking profit-making venture must factor in paying for your curation staff. Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 4:55
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    I would like to recognise that, whilst not perfect, this communication is another example of improved transparency.
    – QHarr
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 5:59
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    What does this "for profit" company has on offer for the contributors?? Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 7:29
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    This brings us to the question: what can SO offer the users that the non-profit open source alternatives can't? Why exactly should we be using this platform? It holds value to me as a user to support non-profit communities where I can actually affect the design and features of the site. I even donate money to them. Whereas I have absolutely no interest in unpaid volunteer work for the purpose of making some private company stock owners in USA rich. So why exactly should I be using this site? Will you start paying us, or what's the long term plan here?
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 7:58
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    You say "We cannot compromise on quality" and yet thats exactly what the collective posts I've seen so far have been. I hope this is something that is going to be monitored and not like the time you said "We are encouraging employees to be active within the community"
    – Sayse
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 8:05
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    @Trilarion That argument is kind of like saying that I should drink Coca Cola instead of water because it's a big and well-known brand, whereas my local water supply is a non-profit venture ultimately controlled by democratically elected local politicians. As for experts, my question is exactly that: why should the experts stay at this site? We end up with a strange circular argument if we say that the experts should stay because the experts are found here.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 10:06
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    @Trilarion Mostly they are here because there were no good alternatives for a long while. The predecessor Experts Exchange had most of the experts before SO came along, then the experts moved here. It didn't happen over night, but rather through a slow trickle, people using both sites then eventually abandoning one of them. And now there are fairly mature non-profit open source alternatives to SO - I've already stopped posting what I personally consider higher quality content on SO and only post it elsewhere. Hopefully the start of the slow trickle phase, until non-profit sites gain momentum.
    – Lundin
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 10:27
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    "We cannot compromise on quality" but you do artificially inflate the score of articles by penalising downvotes on them. There is no evident justification for that other than to try and misrepresent the quality of articles.
    – khelwood
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 11:30

12 Answers 12

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My primary issue with collectives is one of presentation.

I accept that SO needs to make profit to survive and fulfill its purpose. However, that doesn't require creating a sponsorship product to sell to businesses and then not calling it a sponsored service. Not once does the word "sponsored" even come up anywhere in staff-related correspondence around collectives. It's clearly a paid for service, by a 3rd party, to have a more visible footprint here on SO. If that's not a sponsorship... I don't know what is. Instead we get this:

Collectives™ helps you find trusted answers faster, engage with product experts, and share knowledge around the technologies you use most.

They do none of these things unless you actively go to the collective page and do some filtering. Not even half of the questions first presented on the landing page have answers, much less answers from "trusted" users or "product experts". It's just a tag filter.

I accept that there is some community building aspect to this in that it creates an incentive for people to participate in a given set of tags, however it's purely cosmetic. It serves the same purpose as gold tag badges, but skips the whole... earning that respect part by letting the paying company decide who is recognized based on whatever criteria they see fit.

I do see the benefit of a "sub-community".. feature but tying it to a commercial sponsorship effectively puts the sub-community at the mercy of said commercial sponsorship. This product kills the idea of having community-ran sub communities with any real support.

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    so... you have a big issue in that it doesn't say loud enough that it's sponsored. have you weighted the pros and cons about if it would, or are you just ranting that you feel it should but it does not behave in the way you would want? If your primary issue is presentation, what kind of presentation are you expecting?
    – eis
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 6:23
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    @eis Transparency is generally a good thing at least in the long run. If people realize at some point that something isn't what it promised to be, they tend to become grumpy and might just turn away. Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 7:00
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    @eis The problem is that it's deliberately misleading. As Kevin points out, Collectives do almost none of the things they are presented as. The initial blog post speaks of companies having desire for "deeper interactions and provide a better experience to current and potential users of their products" but I've seen none of that. Right now Collectives is mostly a flashy icon, a leader board, the label "recognised user", and articles that apparently nobody actually knows the reason of.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 7:02
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    In the most direct way I can think of to say it, I want honesty. We live in a world of marketing, where the best way to drive profits is often through full on misinformation. The community here is one that can recognize it, likely more than any other community out there. Respect it. Use it. Make the fact that the company is paying to provide the service a selling point rather than an unspoken side effect.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 7:03
  • To some degree, marketing is meant to be misleading in the sense that it's supposed to present things in an appealing manner. I don't see anything blatantly dishonest here, and I'd be interested to know how would you market it then. But this is just my personal opinion and I'm not in any way affiliated.
    – eis
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 8:17
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    I’d like to think I’d approach it from the perspective of… this is a thing we the community want businesses to come here for and sponsor to keep the lights on, and to know the funds are going not only to keeping the lights on, but improving the community we’ve built. Companies should want to be seen supporting this community and to be a part of its future. However… I have no insight on how to accomplish such a thing or if it is even possible.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 8:30
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    My fear, or worry, is that it’s too late. That the investors that SO chose to sell/become beholden to aren’t interested in such a community. That they’d prefer it be sold and make a quick buck on our efforts.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 8:52
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    @KevinB "...make a quick buck..." First you have to achieve that actually. It may be harder than anticipated. Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 9:25
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    Has community... trust, respect, etc for the company eroded to such a point that it's not worth making the community part of the solution? that the only way to... make ends meet is to mislead?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 17:13
  • To summarize: Collectives are useless.
    – JonH
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 18:56
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    I don't think they're necessarily useless, just... they aren't what was described on the box. not even close.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 18:58
  • @eis "I'd be interested to know how would you market it then." I don't even know what Collectives achieves. Other than making money for SO, that is "Sponsored tags" as Kevin said describes it well. Maybe call it "Sponsored Tags+". But again, I don't know what Collectives do for the site itself. It's like asking me how to market the colour yellow - I do not think that question makes sense by itself.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 21:51
  • @VLAZ if you don't see what collectives achieves, then the issue certainly isn't "one of presentation" like mentioned in this answer, then, is it?
    – eis
    Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 7:23
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    @eis The presentation of the feature simply does not match what it does. It's supposed to help users (according to how it was presented) but I don't think it does. Remove that and what do you get? A feature that gets SO money. If I were to market it, then I'm supposed to explain why users would want it. If I were to just say "It's a fancy donation box for SO", I don't think that does the job. What do you think Collectives does for you and I as users of the site? The feature has been out for 5 months - how did the site experience change for the better in that time thanks to Collectives?
    – VLAZ
    Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 7:35
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    @eis it's a misrepresentation of the content and the motivations for the content. The problem isn't unexpected behavior, the problem is that I, as a consumer in a capitalist economy, need to know when a corporation paid for me to hear about them.
    – user8866053
    Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 2:27
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I suspect it would be useful to consider the "non negotiable principles" not as an ultimatium but as an opportunity to understand where these things have to be mutually beneficial. I feel it's useful to consider 2 of the points made in context.

We have an obligation to our shareholders to create and increase value over time. This is both a reality and a position that cannot be changed.

SE is a platform and a set of communities, and many attempts to "create value" have fallen flat because they completely forgot the communities. Value and engagement comes from healthy, vital communities, and if, as often in the past, things are focused on "creating value" while losing sight of what creates the value - things are doomed to fail.

While I know part of the SE community feels we should go all-in on a different, less commercial path, I feel that if things work folks would have no exceptions to the company creating initiatives to improve profit and value in partnership with the community.

I suspect that if you don't want to be irrelevant - finding that balance is important.

Fundamentally, a content, happy, community you're working with is the best way to add value over time.

Our Public Platform’s paid product strategy approaches commercializing the public platform by focusing on relevance ....

In plainer English - if folks are finding stuff they need more easily, even if it's written by employees of an org that happens to be paying y'all, then that's good. While I'm not an SO denizen, and mostly follow events here second hand - I'd argue 'good' support for paid products on the public platform might include helping ensure relevance not just of content, but of tone and style as well.

I do believe that that's the core of some of the critiques made. SO's very much built many solutions in need of problems in the past. For something to succeed it needs to balance the needs of the company, of potential clients, and the community as-is (not as you want it).

In context - your products are only going to be relevant to your clients if they're relevant to the community, since your clients are and always have been selling to the community (or to put it another way - we're the product).

I suspect this is relevant across SE's product and communication lines, and often forgotten.

So we introduced Collectives, and there was an initial outcry against Articles

Video or animated ads fill a customer need, but we believe they are too intrusive, distracting, and would drive higher usage of ad blockers.

Both of these have something in common - that they kinda caused an outcry (and SE did try video ads, and some of the ads that were shown were poor fits for us) - Y'all have a technically sophisticated userbase, especially but not limited to the tech sites, who probably are going to more vocal about things than the average user.

As much as anything else - you're selling eyeballs and attention first - everything else relies on that. As such, any product is adding value to user experience. It's been years since I studied marketing - but to borrow a phrase - your product needs to bring delight to the customer - and in this case, for Collectives or other products to 'work', they need to be something folks would recognize as bringing additional value (and delight!) to their SO experience.

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    I feel like this addresses the soul of the community here very well. Never underestimate the value of joy (just look at how much political capital dark mode generated).
    – Travis J
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 6:40
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First let me start with a set of non-negotiable principles:

We are a for-profit company. This has been true since the founders raised the first round of capital from outside investors. We have an obligation to our shareholders to create and increase value over time. This is both a reality and a position that cannot be changed.

Yes, we understand that. Nobody has a problem with company making money here. We understand that you need to make money in order to run the platform.

What you need to keep in mind at all times, is that this public platform is not just a way for you to make money, it is a symbiosis between company providing the platform and community that provides and moderates content. If you take community out of the consideration when making changes to the public platform, you are killing the symbiosis and eventually killing the platform.

This has happened with Collectives. You have introduced the feature without thinking what kind of impact will it have on the community. You have the community at your disposal for collecting ideas and opinions on what new features should look like, and what will work and what not, but you haven't done that. Instead you have developed half baked product that was tested only by few hand picked people without bringing broader community into the process during design stage.

As long as you keep developing features on public platform, without involving the community from the start, you will keep failing, as you will be blind to what community expects and tolerates.

With Collectives, you have created content that sits above other content and is out of the reach for the rest of the community, without ability to be moderated and improved by the community, that potentially competes with other content, and is eligible to earn reputation only for the selected few.

Earning reputation is a huge red flag for content that is out of the reach for the rest of the community, because it gives certain users more power on the rest of the site and without really earning that power and knowing how to use it.

If you take a look at the Collectives and their admins, meaning users that can add content on the site, they are all, but one, totally inexperienced on the platform. And how did that go? Well, so far, not so well.

Our Public Platform’s paid product strategy approaches commercializing the public platform by focusing on relevance – specifically, using our unique position to bring interested people and organizations together to engage around the collective knowledge of a specific domain or topic. We have chosen this strategy because we want to deliver real value to both users and customers rather than just creating additional or new types of advertising.

If that is your goal, then Collectives completely failed. There is zero incentive for the companies and their employees or other trusted members to provide high quality content here, and as we could see, basically zero new value was added. Those that want to provide value and content can and are doing so in the regular part of Q/A platform. Also there is no bringing people together as Articles are completely out of the reach for the rest of the community. The rest of Collectives is just the same old Q/A, only with sponsor ads.

If Collectives are just a way to put some targeted ads here, fine. If you want them to be more and provide additional content, then such content needs to be integral, functional part of the rest of the content, not some foreign body that will turn into a cancer.

Stack Overflow, as a resource, is only viable if the quality of the objective content is extremely high, better than anywhere else. We cannot compromise on quality, and we expect all our products to build on this premise.

You keep repeating that, but very little has been done in that area. The last positive change was lowering the threshold for close votes two years ago. Stack Overflow is drowning in poor content and the company still refuses to explain rules to the new users, loud and clear, before they start posting here.

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    "Stack Overflow is drowning in poor content and the company still refuses to explain rules to the new users..." Not only that, there are loads or users, active and experienced on the site, that could help with the tsunami of poor content, but cannot do so because of reputation. So not only have we now got users from Collectives, with no experience, unable (and uninterested) to help with curation because of that lack of experience, we've plenty who could help and can't. It was already a strange situation. Now it's become dystopian.
    – ouflak
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 17:44
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I don't think anyone (deep down) begrudges SO from trying to make a profit. You have to pay the bills somehow. But there were numerous errors that could have been avoided. Some of these should be embarrassing to the company.

Profitability should have been a stated goal

This paragraph was needed 5 months ago

We also know that tech organizations are seeking opportunities to connect with and understand the users and use cases of their products. They want the opportunity to engage more directly and support their users where they already are, in order to increase user retention and enable product adoption. Similarly, technologists value platforms that are well-supported by an active tech community, and have a strong desire to engage with the people building and supporting those platforms. They are interested in the opportunity to more easily provide feedback and learnings from their product use that could shape changes, improvements, and even new products.

The community figured that out on day one

I've only ever seen one devil - profitability. The whole network needs revenue to keep the lights on, and given the way that venture capital was raised, I don't think making this service a non-profit was ever a tenable option. So, revenue is needed. In the void of decisions clearly made for the good of the overall community, decisions or actions are taken that are presumed to be for the good of the company's long-term vitality. It's not a problem that lights need to stay on; what is the problem is that this comes at the effective loss of what made this place worth staying for.

I mean it wasn't that long ago that the company was up-front when a new feature was trying to earn money

As we continue our endeavor to find things that improve our core Q&A experience and contribute to our bottom profit line, we look for intersections where we can make us more valuable to everyone, which often comes in the form of identifying opportunities that we've been wasting because we haven't yet discovered them.

I don't expect people to be happy about it, but being open about goals of making money needs to be a policy. Yet the announcement said nothing about it directly (although it does call the initial Collectives "customers"). Which leads me to my next point

Pretending this wasn't about revenue confused everyone

The gist of the announcement was that this was a value proposition. The community wasn't seeing new ads, they were gaining quality content. The community never really bought it, seeing it as just another ad system. I mean, it is hard to see this as anything but a paid advertisement and a commenter noted

I downvoted this because it felt like a product blog post. I'm not very familiar with the new articles feature. Maybe that's an acceptable post style and I'm wrong. But that's why I downvoted.

Worse is that for the people paying for this shiny new feature seemed to be equally confused. Many of them seemed to be tasked to spread information through what ostensibly was a paid channel, only to have their articles deleted for content quality issues that would not pass muster anywhere else on SO.

Yes, it was a Beta, but not setting expectations first was a mistake, and announcing it like it's a new feature instead was a recipe for disaster. Hence where we are today, with a fuller explanation that should have been offered from the start.

What universally broken thing are we trying to fix - both for us as users and your corporate partners? Right now, I feel like you have two parties talking at each other - partners trying to understand what the best way of using articles is, and users trying to nudge them in various ways.

And there still aren't any tools for community moderators. Only CMs can manage articles like other posts. That's partially due to the fact that Collectives was cobbled onto Teams, which was cobbled onto Q&A. We have no idea what became of this post

Some key topics we covered with participating Stack Overflow moderators were how moderation of new features should be handled, and whether there should be any new rules. One big takeaway from these interviews was that the mod team should moderate the majority of new features, with the option to pull in a Community Manager from our staff where they feel appropriate. We were concerned about the potential added workload, but most of the Stack Overflow moderators we spoke to felt that this wouldn’t meaningfully impact their workload.

It was good you interviewed some mods about it and the summary they posted indicated they gave feedback I (and probably most of the mods) would have given if we were asked. But since then... nothing.

At this point, I consider Collectives to be like Teams: a paid product we just don't deal with. It makes money, SO has its own internal rules and tools, and SO manages it from the top down (with some feedback from the community here and there about how it should look and feel). I don't know if that's how you want it to be perceived, but that's the impression I get from fellow users I interact with. Philippe has been fighting an uphill battle on that front, and I do not envy him in this task.

TL;DR Takeaways

You're a busy lady so here's just the basics

  1. If a project is about revenue, be open about that. Selling revenue-producing projects as solely beneficial to the community will not go well.
  2. Don't rush the tooling. Collectives launched half-baked and have not significantly improved since
  3. Make sure you set expectations in the launch notice(s), especially for customers, CMs and moderators. It's bad when your employees are having to improvise answers on the fly.
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    You perfectly summarized everything I've felt about this so far, worded very well. I don't think the company has been overly parasitic in nature about Collectives as a whole, but the whole thing felt half-baked from the get-go, soliciting feedback has been infrequent, and when feedback has been asked for it's been followed by another period of dark comms. I really want this to succeed and benefit both the company and the community, but it just feels like it's been handled poorly and improved too slowly thus far.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 18:16
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I don't see any issue with SE earning money, and I don't think the interests of the company and the community are really at odds here. I also appreciate that SE has listened to the feedback on the ad experiments, I was one of the people yelling very loudly about that.

But I do think that the Collectives feature has fundamental issues, and that SE isn't looking deep enough into why it's so poorly received by the community. To me the whole thing really feels like SE is desperately trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. I think there is an interesting idea somewhere there, but the feature as released feels completely incoherent to me.

Articles are not a bad idea in themselves, I think there is a place for different kind of content on SO/SE even though it's probably really hard to pull this off in a way that works well and doesn't produce too many issues with quality. But coupling articles to collectives is probably the worst way to start, and this amplifies the potential problems with articles because you put the tool only into the hands of people with somewhat conflicting interests in promoting their product and with likely not that much SO experience.

What the paying customers are probably interested in are essentially native ads/sponsored content. That's not a bad thing inherently, as long as it is properly marked. But it is the antithesis of what SO content should be, it needs to be clearly differentiated from the actual content of the site. Mixing these promotional interests with a new core content type creates a lot of conflict as you've noticed.

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  • "and this amplifies the potential problems with articles because you put the tool only into the hands of people with somewhat conflicting interests in promoting their product and with likely not that much SO experience" - leave it to a mad scientist to nail it.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 15:18
14

It would be a shame if we are all so used to the corporate mindset that we accept it as a justification for actions that the community finds undesirable.

The site and technology exist to provide a platform for the content provided (for free) by the community. The company exists to maintain and support the site and technology (and the community). To do this it needs to make enough money to continue existing. It doesn't need to make more profit. If it is trying to increase its profit by changing things that the community would prefer not be changed, then it is acting parasitically.

The company telling us "we do this because we want to increase the money for our shareholders" is like a politician saying "I did what my campaign contributors wanted because it's in my own interests". It might be true, but it is not an argument in your favour.

5
  • 2
    At least they're honest about it. And as it's said: money makes the world go round. There is a probably a maximum of profit that one can get out of SO and if one tries too hard one might probably fail, but maximizing profit and profiting from other peoples' work is kind of normal in many parts of the world. Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 13:14
  • 2
    @Trilarion Something being kind of normal doesn't mean it's good; certainly doesn't mean it's a reasonable justification for something else.
    – khelwood
    Commented Nov 30, 2021 at 13:18
  • 2
    Well said. If it were acting in the community's best interests, this wouldn't be such a $%&^ show. Fact is: they aren't. This is an attempt to monetize something that is not in the community's best interest, and it is not going well; on top of that, we are being told that it is literally an ultimatum.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 8:49
  • @TravisJ "...literally an ultimatum..." Collectives have not gone very far so far and I predict (without any good or bad will) that it will likely remain that way in the near future. I welcome the clarity in this announcement. I means I don't even need to try to change their course. Saves me time. Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 10:00
  • 2
    @Trilarion - Clarity? Sure, I mean... no need to assume bad intentions when they are written right there in plain text. "More profit is our first priority" is a mantra that has sent many companies into bankruptcy. Stack Overflow used to be based on "making the internet a better place", but that is perhaps too much to ask for anymore. It is looking more and more like a skit from SNL in here. I also like how their negotiations "barely" saved us from being firehosed by whatever ad was paying the most. Can't wait to see some NSFW content on a site expected to be the gold standard in industry.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 1, 2021 at 20:11
13

I want to respond to one paragraph because I worry that it represents a misunderstanding about how community feedback works and why it's valuable.

So we introduced Collectives, and there was an initial outcry against Articles. Now, to be perfectly honest, while we took strides to ensure we didn't see a repeat of past projects (i.e. Documentation), there were a lot of questions we weren't able to properly answer without community involvement: would they be permanent or ephemeral? Would they include announcements? And based on your feedback, we’ve landed on some answers to those questions (permanent, not ephemeral; no announcements, although we’ll need to find an alternative way to tackle this need) and have figured out how to position them as an enhancement to the knowledge repository.

I was the community liaison for the Documentation project. I wrote the announcement that the project was ending and a postmortem. So I believe I have a pretty good idea of what went wrong. In short, people didn't have a reason to participate:

Early on, I made some small change to some small part of PHP Documentation and occasionally see a single rep point pop up, but I NEVER find myself visiting it for ANY reason now.

This is from the highest scoring question about Documentation not written by staff. It's red flag when users are asking if your project is a "failed experiment" and unfortunately the community was right in this case. I'm afraid I'm getting an uncomfortable sense of deja vu when it comes to Collectives.

One thing that is absolutely true about Documentation is that it never had a revenue model attached. (Insert "Phase 3: Profit" joke here.) As it became clear Documentation was a lot harder than anticipated, leadership counted the cost and pulled the plug. So one huge advantage of Collectives is that it seems to be generating revenue. As it happens, I'm currently a developer advocate and I've looked at Collectives as a potential tool to interact with our current and potential customers. Unfortunately, Collectives just isn't an attractive platform for us in its current state. (Ironically, perhaps, most of my work has been on our own documentation site.)

It sounds like you asked two questions about the Articles feature:

  1. "Would they be permanent or ephemeral?"
  2. "Would they include announcements?"

These are important questions to answer if you want to build the appropriate feature. I also suspect they represent a schism between the needs of Collective customers and Collective consumers. If so, these are not the questions that are most pressing. It seems to me that the community's answer to these questions are self-evident—Stack Overflow users aren't interested in fluff.

My absolute favorite article about user feedback remains "Listening to users considered harmful?" It's a short piece with a pithy conclusion:

So maybe the key is to listen not only to what users say, but more importantly to what is motivating what they say. The rest is up to us. If we really care about our users, they'll just have to trust us... but more crucially—we have to trust ourselves.

In truth the problem with Documentation may well have been the name itself. Documentation instantly meant something to everyone who heard it. Unfortunately, it's a malleable word that could mean dramatically different things to different audiences. The result was we muddied the waters and added features that strayed too far from the real vision (Examples). It set an expectation for canonicity that wasn't supported by the product we delivered. Listening to users, without understanding their motivations, led us to work on problems that pulled the product away from the original vision. Therefore we failed to accomplish what we set out to do and failed to meet user expectations.

If Collectives needs an announcement feature, then it doesn't much matter what the community says about that feature. Or rather, it's critical to understand what motivates their reaction to announcements. Every once in a while, I open Stack Overflow in a private window:

Incognito view of the Stack Overflow homepage

And every time I wonder why Stack Overflow is so eager to hide the value of its content. Why so eager to push announcements? How can we trust the company to provide useful announcements rather than just let their customers spam users? With all the other people vying for our attention, who would voluntarily ask for more announcements?

There ways to make this sort of feature work and even provide value. For instance I'm subscribed to mailing lists because they promised me a discount years ago and I haven't gotten around to unsubscribing. That's maybe not the right model for Collectives. But that's for you all, the designers of the product, to figure out. Once you know what to build, trust yourselves to know how to make it work.


An anecdote: when Stack Overflow introduced the question closing feature, I thought it was a very bad idea. Obviously I was wrong. Who can argue with the success of Stack Overflow, to say nothing of nearly two hundred Stack Exchange sites, in maintaining high-quality Q&A content? And yet, I was also very clearly right since the question closing feature has been under nearly constant revision. Surely there's a better way to accomplish the goal?

What I've come to discover is that the problem the close feature is solving happens to be a very difficult one. "Just close the bad questions" turns out to be hopelessly naive. So adjusting the feature to get better results is the only solution. Another solution (I preferred making downvoted questions harder to discover) will converge on similar failures down the line too. It's less a matter of how the system works and more a matter of relentlessly fixating on the problem that needs solving.

5
  • Lots of good points here, but there's one detail the company never seems to grasp: there is little to no distinction between the company's customers and the site users. The overwhelmingly most likely target audience to ever use SO's commercial services are the existing, long-term users of the site. Not some outsider who just happened to stroll by and sees "Oh, look Collectives! (Careers/Teams/...) That sounds nifty, lets pay for that." Not everyone using the site is a student begging to have their homework made, or a nameless click entering the site from Google. ->
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 13, 2022 at 8:19
  • 1
    I'm an engineering manager myself, someone who is in a position to sign up for the various commercial services offered, if I had any faith at all in SO the company. Which I don't, because it continuously keeps treating "users" as some annoying noisy bunch that keeps distracting the from profit-making, instead of (potential) customers. ->
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 13, 2022 at 8:20
  • 1
    It's like running a bakery in medieval France and you have thousands of commoners eager to buy bread in every direction you look, but you keep pushing them aside on your way to the royal castle, insisting on only trying to sell the bread to Queen Marie-Antoinette, who has never eaten it and prefers cake. And then wonder why the commercial services never quite seem to kick off and become big profit makers.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 13, 2022 at 8:28
  • 1
    @Lundin: Love the analogy, but I'm not sure it fits. In my (admittedly limited) experience with Stack Overflow's customers, the motivating factor is sometimes the need to spend a departmental budget. So when SO focused on hiring, the Talent platform was another place for HR departments to spend money in hopes of getting a few extra candidates. My sense is the current Collective customers have bought into the idea that SO can connect them to developers and have a budget to spend on that promise. (Might be a Marketing budget or a developer advocacy budget. Doesn't much matter.) Commented Jan 13, 2022 at 18:04
  • 1
    The whole Teams project seemed like one big flirt with the Queen (Microsoft), for the purpose of creating a commercial product that would seem to be the next big thing with potential, so that the company could be sold to some other King/Queen. It wasn't something the peasants (existing customers) asked for. Collectives seem to be the same deal business-wise, implementing features to target big tech companies or rather creating a good-enough sales pitch to tell it to them. Rather than increasing the value of the SO product long term or creating something that can be sold to the peasants.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 14, 2022 at 8:23
10

While I admit my first tongue-in-cheek answer felt like it was complete, I decided to take a bit of time to formulate a different response.

First of all, thanks for communicating this. You have the unenviable position of needing to communicate all of this out to all interested parties as well as guard and defend the company's position on this.

Ultimately though, this whole sentiment regards someone like me, who is a veteran of the network, as nothing more than a resource as opposed to someone who also has something to gain from these efforts.

I do not like that.

No one begrudges you for needing to make your dime. Servers aren't cheap and it isn't like we're donating any cash to keep this place afloat, either. You're a business, and you have to sell a product to keep the lights on. I get it. I'm not naive to the ways of the world here.

However, your choice to then roll out a feature that the community at large simply did not know how to handle and then suggest that somehow that this is bringing us "value" is insulting.

The company has decided to shape this into a specific conversation - one in which they are going to decide the direction and we're going to be dragged along with it, whether or not we like it.

I do not like that. I even cautioned against it when Philippe made his debut.

The company has made so. many. decisions. that have made this "benevolent dictatorship" relationship that we've had with you for quite some time a whole lot less benevolent. But you're not really keen on stopping it.

I suppose you put it aptly here best:

Stack Overflow, as a resource, is only viable if the quality of the objective content is extremely high, better than anywhere else. We cannot compromise on quality, and we expect all our products to build on this premise.

Our only recourse as a form of civil disobedience or disagreement to your policies or your plans is not to talk to you about them, not to engage you on them, not to reach out, not to foster a relationship, not to plead, not to whine, not to bleed, not to suffer...but to simply stop moderating.

But a silver lining to all of this - at least now I know how you're going to engage with us going forward!

8

If I could hit the pause button on this whole project and make any changes I wanted to it and its presentation, I would do this:

The TLDR before we get into the weeds of this is make the whole process more transparent, remove the Articles/Q&A Overlap, and create rewards/benefits for users who participate. This clears up what articles are for and gives a reason for Collectives to exist that isn't just another form of sponsored tags.

Collectives™ are spaces on where the community and the sponsoring company can collaborate to ask and answer questions on the tags tied to the collective.

  1. Get rid of the "recognized member" designation, but leave "employee". "Employee" is mostly just flair, it doesn't give the user any additional ability in the Q&A portion of the site but it may give them more abilities within the collective itself such as suggesting/editing Articles or controlling/moderating other parts of the collective.
  2. Leave the leaderboard, but make gold/silver/bronze rankings slightly broader and give users who attain those rankings curation privileges similar to gold badges.
  3. Articles can't be voted on or earn rep; maybe implement the reactions feature here.
  4. Revise the comments/feedback mechanism for Articles to be a three entry-point process: "This article was helpful 👍"/"This article wasn't helpful 👎"/(redflag)
  5. Articles are for Announcements, Events, and Advertorials/Tutorials. No copy-pasting from elsewhere, everything must be tailored to this network.
  6. Articles don't show up in the general Q&A search. Instead, they show up in the right panel when you are viewing collective pages and collective questions. Add the ability to subscribe to articles.
  7. A roadmap that includes future features that add more ways for the sponsoring company and the community to interact. For example: a job board, chat integration, teams integration, outside RSS Feeds, and all of these things could be separate information blocks that appear any time someone visits a collective question/answer or page.
  8. Remove "Recognized Answer". If it's a good answer people will upvote it; we shouldn't be using collectives as an alternative to the outdated answers project.

The goals would be to have a space where people can earn prestige (the leaderboard) while attaching real benefits to participation (additional moderation ability on those tags.) The sponsoring company will still get their space on SO, still be able to designate employees, and be able to directly communicate to the community through articles (and future features such as chat integration) without needing to make articles compete with Q&A for relevance.

9
  • 1
    I oppose 2 and 8 — #2 the leaderboard is just noise, and IIRC it gets updated every 19 hours based on the answer score. It is simply too fluctuating to tie moderation privileges to that. The gold badge and the dupe closure privilege have a strong logical connection instead: the requirement is 1000 score and 200 answers which is a pretty significant contribution to the tag, and the reasoning was that with so many answers under your belt you know what was and was not already asked. Hence the privilege to dupe close. cont
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 7:54
  • 3
    #8 the recognized answers feature is actually useful, especially in very popular Q&As about some basic feature of the technology that tend to have many answers in the hundreds. That makes it hard for newcomers to find the best answer among those, and the "recognized" mark helps alleviate that issue. The problem, if anything, is that it is not used enough, or it is used on Q&As with only one answer, with the double negative effect of being redundant, and deterring others form posting more answers. — disclaimer: I speak from the PoV of the Go collective
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 7:57
  • Yeah, until now I wasn’t sure exactly how the leaderboard functioned (thanks!) so I left that at “broaden”. I don’t know what changes I’d suggest to the leaderboard to make it usable for that purpose, but still think making it more than just a leaderboard would be an overall improvement
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 12:42
  • My issue with 8 comes from lack of trust that the people with the ability to use it won’t abuse it or use it poorly, with the given lack of experience with SO. Improvements to that system could change my mind
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 12:45
  • 2
    Abusing the "recommended answer" IMO is somewhat not an issue as it lacks a strong motivation. At the very least you pay for a Collective in order to promote your product and at that point authorship of a particular answer you "Recommend" is irrelevant to your goal. A rogue actor may do that to increase their own visibility, but if the pattern of bad recommendations is conspicuous enough, mod flags will be raised.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented Dec 2, 2021 at 13:23
  • 1
    "remove the Articles/Q&A Overlap"... in other words, disassociate this from Stack Overflow. Agree. It should be its own feature. It should have its own department in the company. In reality, something like this, a departure from the core design of the software, should really be its own project with a separate manager. The thing is, that's not going to happen, because this project would never survive in the wild; with enough protection it will maybe survive here, but there will be no thriving for this feature, just a money pit.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 3, 2021 at 22:39
  • 1
    "It should have its own department in the company" it kinda does? this isn't a community team project, it's a product team project. But besides semantics, my goal was more, making articles "useful" by making them not just a far worse version of Q&A. Articles serve the same purpose as Q&A, just in a different way. They're more of the form like a knowledgebase, what SO Docs tried to be. It doesn't lend itself well to being a collaborative effort or being well moderated/curated/kept up to date which is why i'd rather they be cut off from that purpose entirely.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 3, 2021 at 22:48
  • 1
    Because articles can't be easily disputed, or "replaced" by better answers in the same way Q&A can, and how they're generally controlled by a paying customer, IMO, they should exist outside of the Q&A box entirely. They shouldn't be treated as equal or solving a similar purpose, they should be more or less a blog and restricted heavily to only being used by the paying customer and not being treated as if they're some kind of extension to Q&A. We tried the knowledge-base thing with SO Docs and found that the Q&A format was superior.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 3, 2021 at 22:51
  • and... by useful, i mean, not inherently useless. Right out of the gate, making another content form that's effectively a wiki without all the good things that comes with a wiki and then expecting it to somehow compliment Q&A is going to fail. Either spectacularly, or by people simply not using it. If it was instead treated as a blog for that company, all of a sudden there's a use for it that doesn't compete with Q&A. While that use wouldn't be useful to everyone, it'd at the very least not be useless.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Dec 3, 2021 at 22:59
7

I think this post addresses the finance angle a little too heavily, while also kind of coming across as naive since it doesn't address costing. It leads to a very tangential discussion point...

The main point here though, seems to be, that we just accept there is a project being overengineered which is trying to attract experts that haven't been onboarded. Fine with me, but it doesn't look like profit. Why wouldn't they just convert these into self answered question and answer posts instead of paying?

Long term, this makes a lot of sense though, considering that Google really does need something like this in place prior to purchasing Stack Overflow in a few years. It will be like their version of the Microsoft Developers Network. Value added indeed!

Money aside, it looks like it could be a little bit of fun while its running, but it is going to require a whole heck of a lot of people to buy into not just the financial aspect but the outlook. For example, free tools. There are some amazing tools out there from fantastic people. They try to help out, post how to guides, create documentation... but it is hard on them and a lot of work which doesn't always get rewarded. Why should they have to pay to move content into the "Collectives" feature here? Why would they? That is a large part of the market space you are looking at.

4

Thank you for the clarification of the motivation behind the Collectives feature. Just to summarize: the company and the community are co-dependent but not co-aligned. We simply have different goals with an emphasis on making money on your side and less so on our side. I think that is both perfectly understandable. Ideally, we would achieve both, so in a way your concerns are also our concerns and vice versa. I definitely wouldn't use Collectives only to increase the profit of the company, if it weren't otherwise useful to me in some way. And even if it persists, I guess that if it can't show its usefulness better, it might not become a high impact feature.

The initial feedback, even more than the initial score, wasn't all pure opposition but well meant in the sense that it also wanted to improve the feature. My impression was that official responses to issues regarding the usefulness of the feature could have been more comprehensive and I would really like to discuss this more. I'm simply not sold on the concept yet, but I'm only one person, in the end we all decide by the sum of all our actions.

0
3

I suggested the removal of the and tags from Intel Collective here: Intel collective owns [x86] and [x86-64].
Peter's answer explains the issue with the current scope of the Intel collective.

As I see your point, it is non-negotiable to significantly reduce the traffic of the Intel Collective.

Can you consider splitting the Intel Collective into two collectives instead?

I understand that it could be non-negotiable as well. But with its current scope, it doesn't meet fundamental to the ideation of Collectives.

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