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I recently came across this answer while approving suggested edits. The suggested edit changed 'girls' to 'assistants'. That's too minor really so I improved the answer by removing the tangent. OP has restored the tangent, which I rolled back again. Without getting into a further edit war, what is the appropriate course of action?


This is the tangent with the offensive portion:

We even hooked up the machines of the girls assistants in the office with IB. First time those machines did something useful. :) At evenings, when just a few developers were left, you'd have 30 cores compiling for you alone. The introduction of IB actually got me off the C++ newsgroups, where I used to hang out all day, while waiting for the compiler. Others played pool, Quake, or twiddled their thumbs for half the day. I guess buying those expensive licenses actually was a very good deal for our employer back then.

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    Really? The simple use of the word "girls" is sexist now?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 16:20
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    @Infinite Recursion: I'm pretty sure the simple act of using a gender word is not inherently sexist (or use of any other description = prejudiced). That being said, it took me more than a few rereads to get that implication given that the only change was a single word, and I have to admit that it is pretty sinister.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 16:37
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    As a rule of thumb we should be as neutral as possible when interacting with other people, at least in a professional site like this, exception made for the chat.
    – user3717756
    Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 16:52
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    @InfiniteRecursion You should read the whole answer. Context matters. Using “girls” to mean “assistants” is sexist. But the answer related some historical facts where some of the people involved were unmarried women, so “girls” is factual, not sexist, in that context. Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 17:15
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    The entire paragraph is fluff and can be deleted. In this case I agree that girls is a bit sexist in the context of the second sentence. In other circumstances it isn't necessarily. Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 17:15
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    That's a definition of "girl" that you'll find a lot of disagreement with, @Gilles, even if it is in some dictionaries. When I hear the word "girl", the 49-year-old unmarried engineer down the aisle from me doesn't spring to mind. Instead, I see my pre-teen nieces, playing with their phones. When I hear it as the OP laid it out, I hear sexism and condescension all wrapped up a little package. Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 17:20
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    @Gilles I am an unmarried woman, so by your definition it would be factual to refer to me as a "girl". I am 65 years old, with a doctorate in computer science, over 30 years working for computer manufacturers, and an inventor on half a dozen US patents. Would you use "boy" to refer to an unmarried man with similar background? If not, that use of "girl" is sexist. Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 19:09
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    @InfiniteRecursion You're assuming that "first time those machines did anything useful" was because they were girls; it could be just because they were non-technical users. I'd give the benefit of the doubt on that.
    – Veedrac
    Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 19:49
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    "Girls" is appropriate in contexts where "boys" is appropriate. It implies an age range and level of maturity. For native English speakers, using "girls" to describe professionals is sexist. I fully understand that many people here do not use English as their first language, so some leeway and understanding is appropriate, when such language is used in an otherwise appropriate context. Which this isn't. Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 23:03
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    The use of any unnecessary, gender-qualifying descriptors is inappropriate in commentary like this. It doesn't matter if we personally are offended by it: the question we need to ask is whether it brings enough to the post to make it worth the risk of offending someone else. In this particular case, I don't think explicitly it did. Particularly since this particular case of "the girls" is reminiscent of a '50s mentality that many--I'd like to think all--of us are trying to put behind us. Thus even if it's not directly offensive, it could still bring strongly negative feelings to many people. Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 1:50
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    How is it known that the "girls" were assistants? Why couldn't they have been just standard workers? If anything that's changing something deemed to be sexist to a complete assumption that may also be deemed to be sexist. Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 12:16
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    @BoltClock Note that in addition to implying that the girls' computers were doing something useful for the first time, the original quote also implies that developers and girls are disjoints subsets of “computer operators”. Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 13:42
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    #FirstWorldProblems. Don't you all think it's silly to argue over is the word girl sexist for not? Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 15:16
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    I'm a woman (with 20 years technical experience and postgraduate degrees in Information Technology and Computer Science) and I find "girls" used in that context sexist.
    – Jane S
    Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 1:53
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    @Gilles Using "girls" for unmarried women is not factual, it is sexist. The correct term for unmarried women is "women". Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 15:14

7 Answers 7

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The point here isn't really to express more or less subjective opinions whether or not the post was sexist... that was not what the question was about.

The question is about whether or not it is relevant to add 10 lines of "the story of my life" anecdotes at the end of an answer.

It is not. You should edit out such fluff. So your original edit was appropriate. But when the 100k rep user, who really should know better, started a rollback war, you should probably have flagged for diamond mod attention and let them settle the dispute, rather than to respond in the same manner.

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    As a side note, a post which contains possible sexism, irrelevant rants and also a rollback war started by the poster, most likely deserves a down vote.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 11:41
  • I am absolutely distraught by the probably half a dozen downvotes I got through your comment. Since they made such a huge dent in my reputation (most of which, BTW, I amassed after I essentially stopped answering a couple of years ago), this is clearly changing my mind on the whole subject of adding anecdotes to explain why I have certain opinions.
    – sbi
    Commented Aug 6, 2014 at 20:42
  • I disagree with the assertion that the actions of the post's author should factor in to a decision as to whether or not to downvote. The author's actions should be irrelevant. Vote based on content itself, not on the actions of the owner of that content.
    – user456814
    Commented Aug 6, 2014 at 21:26
23

Since you guys (ha!) discussed this while I was cycling through France with one of my kids, here's a belated response from me:

  1. I am German and learned English in school (east of the Iron Curtain, so this only amounts to 10% of what I learned), while being in the US twice for a couple of months (50%), on the net (30%), and while being abroad in the UK and elsewhere (10%). To me as a foreigner "the girls from the office" is a phrase that I must have heard often, because it seems to be a common phrase to me. It might well be that this is something from the 50s, but that doesn't change the fact that I must have learned that phrase in the 90s.

  2. When I worked at the company I referred to, what I named "the office" was indeed populated with women only, while the developers were all men. This was a fantastic shop to work at with an incredibly good company climate. (Which is why I stayed there for almost a decade.) Among other things, the boss had someone cooking for us. Everyday. For free. I can distinctly remember one of the women from the office poking her nose into development calling "Boys, lunch is ready!" She is about my age. (It's a decade ago that I quit after working there for almost a decade.) There were a couple of developers my age, and a few older than me. Half of them were people between 20 and 30. Of course, when one of the developers got wind of lunch being ready before someone in the office did, he'd go to the office and call the "girls" for lunch. Nobody took offense, nobody felt belittled.

  3. The "office" doing things like accounting, CRM and such stuff, it was sneered on by us developers – and they looked down their noses at us "mere technicians". However, that was all good-natured and fun. Nobody took offense, nobody felt belittled. In this small shop (25 people at the max) everybody valued everybody else's work, and everybody knew that their work was valued.

  4. After having quit there about a decade ago, they still know me and invite me to their parties. I also have a beer with the boss about once or twice a year and I am still in contact with the above mentioned woman. (Her daughter turned her into a grandmother last year.) She's what Germans consider typical for Berliners (big-mouthed), and if she saw the remark the way I originally wrote it, she would first grin and then give me a retort that would make you gasp. (And then she'd laugh out loud. About me.)

  5. Besides being a programmer, I have taught (mainly C++) for 20 years. I have tutored fellow students, taught apprentice programmers, CS students, newbie programmers and seasoned ones. One of the things I have learned is that students do not fall asleep and everybody remembers your classes – and their content! –, if you season complicated stuff with a few funny remarks. I guess doing this comes natural to me (and I am not above making people laugh at my cost). I do this at Stack Overflow and at other Stack Exchange sites as well

  6. I would like Stack Overflow to be a bit more relaxed (and re-allow some of the fun question of old). I know this goes against what the self-proclaimed meta-elite has wrought the site into. But I am a C++ developer: If I feel like I want some dry reading, I have plenty of it in the C++ Standard (which is so dry that you can make dust clouds puff up from it just by looking at it intensively). Heck, just pointing newbies to Wikipedia's C++ entry makes their toenails curl up in disgust about the formal language. OTOH, everybody C++ programmer who's read Scott Meyers or Andrei Alexandrescu loves them for the fact that they are so much fun to read.

  7. The fact that a lot of the fun that used to be at Stack Overflow has been pushed off to meta and to the chat is one important factor why I rarely ever contribute to the site nowadays. Constantly ploughing through scores of silly newbie questions in order to give politically correct answers is not my idea of spending my rare free time.

  8. When it comes to political correctness in speech, I'm on the fence. Yes, I know, oppression expresses in language. OTOH, it doesn't automatically end when you change your language – and politically correct language often is pale, bloodless, and boring. Humans, however, prefer colorful, vivid, and interesting language.

That's been my €0.02 about the issue. Do with it what you want. Should I run across a question I consider worth answering (only 4 in 2013 compared to >200 in 2011), I hopefully will have forgotten this silly discussion here so that I won't have to consciously disregard it.

So sue me.

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    "Since you guys (ha!)" See you in court ;P
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 14:28
  • +1 and Thanks for this beautiful answer. It's so nice to hear that you used to work in such a great place. Guess it is the difference in times, due to which I misinterpreted it. Sorry for the same. Thanks again for such a beautiful piece of writing. Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 14:33
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    @Infinite: I have no idea what you misinterpreted where, but then I didn't read much of this discussion. I have always tried to work at places like this. My current employer is also very good at maintaining a great social climate. I don't think it's the difference in times, though. It's a difference in how people feel treated. If some good-natured teasing makes people feel bad, there's something (else) wrong with the company.
    – sbi
    Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 17:16
  • Where I work now, the other day the woman who is HR said, after we talked about it over lunch, that it is good that we developers have better machines than the rest of the company, because we need them, and "they" aren't even fully using the cheaper ones they have. If we hooked up their machines to IB (we don't use VC, though), she'd laugh when I'd say it's the first time her machine does something useful. This is all friendly banter, because we value each other, and we know that we do.
    – sbi
    Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 17:18
  • @BoltClock: In what profession will you be there? Judge? My defense? Spectator? Paparazzi?
    – sbi
    Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 17:19
  • I had a comment in reply to BoltClock's comment , which I deleted after reading your answer. Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 17:45
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How much commentary is permitted in answers?

If you're referring to material that belongs in comments, none. In general, if it doesn't clarify the post or ask for clarification, it belongs in comments. That's true for questions as well.

As to the specific post in question, the current revision seems fine to me. The text you removed was relevant to the answer, the use of the term girls notwithstanding.

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2

How much commentary is permitted in answers?

There should be no commentary or fluff of any kind in answers, though there are exceptions. I think your edit was good, because it removed unnecesary text.

what is the appropriate course of action?

Once it is clear that there is a disagreement, no more edits should be done until it has been discussed. This can be done in the comments, chat or with a question in meta. If you use comments, you should delete them once the discussion is over.

That means that your second edit was already not appropiate. You should have stopped and tried to communicate with the user who wrote the answer.

-2

That answer could certainly be made less sexist. The point that needed to be made is that he hooked up some machines to IB which were otherwise doing no useful work (in his opinion).

It was not necessary to associate the concept of "girls" with the concept of "not doing any useful work".

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    He didn't associate "the concept of 'girls'", but these particular girls he was talking about. You don't know whether they were doing any useful work or not.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 0:46
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    It was not necessary to characterize those computers beyond saying that the computers were doing no useful work. It did not improve the question to indicate who the users of those computers were. Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 0:47
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    True, but the fact that it did not improve the question/answer doesn't imply it was sexist.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 0:48
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    No implication was required. The plain meaning of the text, as written, and as interpreted by me, was that the OP chose to use the term "girls" instead of something neutral like "people" because he wished to associate the term "girls" with "people whose machines performed no useful work in the context". I would hope the OP could clarify whether this was his intention, or whether it just came out that way (maybe the only "guy" whose machine performed "no useful work"was out on vacation). Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 0:52
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    I would hope people would wait for the OP to clarify, before judging. There are many other possible scenarios, beside the one you've pointed out, where the post doesn't have any sexist connotations. Also, to reach your conclusion implication is required, because the OP didn't say exactly what you are saying here.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 0:56
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    @BartoszKP: unless the OP is a child, he should by now have experience in writing in a manner which does not lead readers to believe he is sexist. One may safely presume that adults do not write in a sexist manner unless they don't mind being read as being sexist. Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 0:59
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    I thought also that one may safely presume that adults understand that different people understand subjective terms very differently, and that premature judgement is not a nice thing to do.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 1:07
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    Nobody put the OP in jail, @BartoszKP. An editor (rightly, in my opinion) scrubbed an answer of a word that was creating a very strong sense of sexism. And frankly, this isn't a borderline case. The OP may not be aware of the implication, I won't guess, but it is absolutely there. Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 1:11
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    @BartoszKP: the fact that different people understand subjective terms differently is a reason for the writers to write differently, not a reason for the readers to read differently. Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 1:29
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    @MichaelPetrotta You all seem to be fond of overstatements and straw man arguments. I didn't say that OP is in jail. Nor the OP said that all females are incapable of using computers. The OP may not be aware of the implication, because it isn't there. Do you honestly think that when I happen to see some women not very good at a task I'm not allowed to express it? Must I quickly find at least one guy, that's also poor at it, to be relieved and say with solace that I saw people? When I see a group of men that can't handle something talking about it seems easier. Now, isn't that sexist? :|
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 1:29
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    @BartoszKP: when it is not relevant to the point being made, please do omit the gender of those involved. In fact, omit everything that is not relevant to the point, or it will be presumed by your readers that you feel these things are relevant to your point. Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 1:32
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    @JohnSaunders And also the reason to give some slack when interpreting peoples' words. Especially before imposing something as inelegant as sexism on them.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 1:32
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    When you spy a female mention, in a professional setting, professional "boys" in the office, then say that the tools of their trade weren't being used for anything useful, then we'll talk, @BartoszKP. Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 1:34
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    @BartoszKP: there is never a reason to turn a blind eye to sexism, racism, etc. It's very simple. In this case, the point was that IB is a useful way of making use of computers which were otherwise not being used "for useful work". Nothing further was required in order to make the point. The fact that there was further characterization strongly suggests that the characterization was being made part of the point. Solution: if that's not what the OP meant, then the characterization should have been removed. Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 1:35
  • @JohnSaunders And there is never a reason to turn a blind eye to unfair accusations of sexism, racism, etc. I'm a bit tired, and really don't understand why I got into this kind of discussion on a supposedly programming site. Anyway, it's pointless. If you'd manage to convince me though, I could even view your answer as an example of excessive patriarchy - you obviously imply (or was it strongly suggest?) that "girls" aren't capable of defending themselves. Good night/day ;)
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 1:53
-4

I'm not sure why do you assume that you know better than the poster whether these particular machines he writes about really did something useful. Perhaps their users where really a group of marginally non-technical females (as Veedrac correctly points out in the comments section). Maybe they also were acting very immature, hence the term "girls". I think it's the poster's right to judge, and only he really knows what he's talking about. Thus the initial edit was incorrect, changing the original meaning. The latter was correct, as this information as a whole was irrelevant in terms of the topic in question. However accusing the poster of sexism seems unfair.

As Infinite Recursion points out in the comments:

It means you when you judge something with your brain, you may be incorrect. But if you feel something from your heart, your feelings are never wrong.

I think it should be fair to apply this statement to the poster also. If he perceived these ladies as "girls" that's his right to do so (even if it was incorrect, however you can't possibly know that). If someone sees it as a suggestion that all females look immature next to a computer then it's their own, incorrect, implication.

The OP added few irrelevant chatty-details to his answer (that the machines weren't used to their full extent before, that it was in an office, etc.). Picking on one of these random-looking details and imposing some special meaning to its existence (as opposed to others) doesn't make much sense to me.

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    It may be the answerers "right" to judge, but it's hardly relevant to the answer. Also, the use of the smiley ("first time their machines did anything useful :)") suggest a loaded message. "Wink wink, we all know computers are not for girls", "Girls can't be real programmers". Whatever. It's just irrelevant. "Some of these machines were pretty over-dimensioned, so in a way they were finally getting some use". There. No sexism, no jokery, just information. Greatness.
    – sehe
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 12:03
  • @sehe Well of course if you try hard enough, you will find sexism everywhere, I'm not denying that :)
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 12:25
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    @sehe Also, all the parts about whether the machines were useful before or not, were over-dimensioned or not, etc. are irrelevant to the answer. So when it comes to adding some random chatty-details it's only your imagination that says that this particular detail is extremely important and implies sexism.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 12:32
  • It's not irrelevant, since it illustrates the untapped computation capacity available in any office environment.
    – sehe
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 13:29
  • Consider an alternative, equally "chatty" remark: "we hooked up the girls' computers even though they were doing something useful [for once]" -- with the "[..]" part, the last part is extremely condescending, without, it's totally irrelevant. Removing the last part makes the "girls" part irrelevant. In the end it boils down to "the other computers".
    – Jongware
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 13:31
  • @sehe It is. Only thing that's relevant to the answer is that IB is scalable and that OP has verified that this feature works running it on many machines in parallel.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 13:37
  • @Jongware Same as above. Most of details in this story are irrelevant, you're just focusing on this one to prove sexism.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 13:39
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    Nobody here accuses or proves sexism. We're just here to discuss whether it's appropriate to edit posts to remove potentially sexist references.
    – sehe
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 15:10
  • @sehe If it is, then we have a lot of work to do, because potentially sexist reference is a very broad, subjective term as I've stated few times :)
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 15:48
  • stackoverflow.com/search?q=girls :V
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 16:42
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    @BartoszKP Of course it doesn't follow at all that we should remove all (potential) needlessly sexist references. This was about whether, in this case, it was a good idea to remove the reference. I'm glad you noticed to that people are repeating things. Frankly your supposedly humoristic linking to a search for "girls" suggests to me you are trying to derail the topic by stripping it from its context. No one says you can't use words. Well, not me at least. Dixerat.
    – sehe
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 19:01
  • As I told you earlier, I agree with your view that till we hear the OP, we can't judge. Today, OP replied. You have my +1 now. Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 14:25
  • @InfiniteRecursion Didn't notice, thanks for your input, and for the notification ;)
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 14:43
-10

Personally, after reading through the comments, I found some particularly important/interesting points:

Really? The simple use of the word "girls" is sexist now?

-Boltclock


@Infinite Recursion: I'm pretty sure the simple act of using a gender word is not inherently sexist (or use of any other description = prejudiced). That being said, it took me more than a few rereads to get that implication given that the only change was a single word, and I have to admit that it is pretty sinister.

-Boltclock


@InfiniteRecursion You should read the whole answer. Context matters. Using “girls” to mean “assistants” is sexist. But the answer related some historical facts where some of the people involved were unmarried women, so “girls” is factual, not sexist, in that context.

-Gilles


@Gilles I am an unmarried woman, so by your definition it would be factual to refer to me as a "girl". I am 65 years old, with a doctorate in computer science, over 30 years working for computer manufacturers, and an inventor on half a dozen US patents. Would you use "boy" to refer to an unmarried man with similar background? If not, that use of "girl" is sexist.

-Patricia Shanahan


Right. So basically we have a two things here:

  • the OP wants to specify the gender of the people he was mentioning, which is perfectly harmless
  • 'girls' can be taken as offensive, as it can be perceived as referring to a combination of age and gender

Here's how I see it: the OP meant to use girls in the context of girls and guys, not the context of girls and boys. The main difference is that the former is used to specify groups by gender, while the former also specifies age.

Now, seeing as that some people seem to keep assuming the latter as opposed to giving the benefit of the doubt to the OP, we need a better word. Since the tone of the writing is quite casual, ladies may be a better term.


note: IMHO, if you give the benefit of the doubt to OP, girls seems just fine to me.

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    The problem is that using the same word for children and adults in some group can make people, at least subconsciously, assume immaturity on the part of all members of the targeted group regardless of age. Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 21:14
  • Which is why I suggested ladies as an alternative solution. Commented Aug 2, 2014 at 22:55
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    The analog of guys is gals, not girls. In formal contexts, girls means prepubescent female humans.
    – wallyk
    Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 0:29
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    Staff and mods have diamonds ◆, so bold disclaimer is not required. Answers should address the question. Comments are second class citizens, never dedicate an answer to comment on comments :-) Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 2:15
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    @wallyk I can honestly say I haven't ever heard anyone say gals IRL. Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 6:36
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    Gals on Meta Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 13:16
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    @InfiniteRecursion not including this page, 3 for gals as opposed to 2 for ladies and 8 for girls, including a quote from an answer, ...need to teach the guy (or girl) half the language.... Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 13:26
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    IDK, the nets isn't what I usually call IRL. Commented Aug 3, 2014 at 15:15
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    The comment clearly implies that women (of any age) aren't as proficient on computers as men by condescendingly referring to them as "girls" with a wink. The context of those two sentences is intended to be demeaning to women using computers.
    – Jane S
    Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 3:00
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    @haneefmubarak I agree with you - when that is the case. But those two sentences with that condescending smiley have one meaning and one meaning only and no amount of trying to rationalise the use of the word "girls" in that context will convince me (and probably most other technical women) otherwise. It was unjustified and intentionally offensive, a nod to the boys on Stack Overflow about those silly women, you know how they are!
    – Jane S
    Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 4:32
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    @Infinite Recursion: By the way, I haven't had the opportunity to thank you for your clarification since my last comment on the question. So thanks :)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 9:13
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    @InfiniteRecursion The sad thing is (which I know we've touched on before on a different thread) is that the sexism in this industry forces most of us to use androgynous user names (such as I was using and as you do) to avoid it. It frustrates me that we have to hide. :(
    – Jane S
    Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 9:51
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    I am inspired by potatoes, unicorns, smurfs and lizard profiles :) As for being androgynous, I go around telling everyone on Meta that I am a she...hardly makes sense if someone is trying to hide due to sexism. @JaneS Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 10:26
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    @InfiniteRecursion True :) And I have a picture of myself in my profile, so I countered my own argument! So there! :)
    – Jane S
    Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 10:30
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    Along the lines of closing this up, I'd like to thank @JaneS for actually being willing to discuss the topic. While in the end we both still appear to have a difference of opinion (which is perfectly fine), at least we both had the opportunity to voice our concerns and be heard. Thanks! Commented Aug 4, 2014 at 10:52

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