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I just got a mod message due to my comment activity on meta, which I find problematic in various ways. As there is no mention of not sharing this message, I hope it's fine to ask a question about it. Here's the text in full (emphasis theirs, but leaving out a few links to chat and the help pages):

Hello,

We're writing in reference to your Stack Overflow account:

https://stackoverflow.com/users/1110381/l4mpi

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/users/1110381/l4mpi

We've noticed that you have a pattern of engaging in lengthy discussions in comments, frequently consisting of responses involving multiple, back-to-back posts on Meta. Comments are intended as brief messages to provide feedback, add minor information, ask for clarification, or discuss the content of the post. Lengthy clarifications should be edited into the post itself or posted separately as a new question or answer, and extended discussions should be taken to chat. Extensive comment threads tend to be a distraction for other readers. These lengthy discussions are often hard to follow, and can easily hide critical information.

Preferring to argue with other users in comments over revising your questions and answers to address their concerns is a red flag to moderators, indicating you may not fully understand the purpose of Stack Exchange: our goal is to provide readers with expert questions and answers, not host discussion or debate. If you desire conversation, stop into the site's chat room.

We hope that you can work with the community on achieving our goals by:

Regards, Stack Overflow Moderation Team


First, the following sentence seems just plain wrong:

our goal is to provide readers with expert questions and answers, not host discussion or debate.

This feels as if the whole message was hastily copied from a template intended for excessive comments on main, slapping an "on Meta" at the end of the first sentence. Or if meta really is not intended for discussion anymore, I suggest removing the tag. In my opinion, the message as a whole is not really applicable for meta, but at the very least, the above sentence should be omitted completely or rewritten.

Second, what is the intent of this message? I first read the mail from SO which contained the above text and thought "this reads like a thinly veiled threat for a suspension". Then I opened the same message in the "Moderator Private Message" view on SO, and lo and behold, in the "What is this" sidebar there it says the following:

Our goal is to amicably resolve issues in a constructive way through direct communication. Please note that continuing to persist in problematic behaviors is grounds for timed suspension.

I'm not quite sure what kind of constructive communication is expected from me here, or how this could be resolved. On the surface, it reads like it's supposed to make me aware of the fact that I somehow misuse comments, but of course I'm already aware of the ongoing debate about comments on meta and this message is a caused by my participation in this debate. As the community heavily disagrees with the proposed comment moderation changes and even the mods don't seem to agree on a position, I think threatening me with a suspension for commenting on a debate about comment moderation seems misguided at best.

I do attempt to write constructive comments, and aside from a single instance today (shortly before receiving the mod message) where a mod directly took offense with some of my comments calling him out on behaviour which I perceived as dishonest, I was not made aware of any issue with my comments. Receiving the mod message thus feels like a direct retaliation for these comments. And regarding the overall amount of comments, this is simply a direct relation to the volume of debate happening over the last week (I also wrote a few answers, and now even a question). Anyways, it's not like I can even realistically contest any assertion from mods about my comment behaviour because parts of my comments as well as most comments which I replied to have since been deleted.


So, I'm not quite sure how to close out this post. First off, to the mod with which I had the earlier comment exchange, I don't remember using any offensive language but if you were offended in any way, that was not my intention and I apologize. Still, I stand by my assertion that from my point of view it looks like some moderators don't engage in a honest debate but choose to ignore or sideline inconvenient arguments by the community.

Furthermore, please explain the specifics of this message. Is the amount of comments the problem, or the specific earlier exchange, or a combination of it all? How is this transparent or comprehensible for the average non-mod user? Will you actually suspend people for writing too many comments on meta? If you were to suspend a user for their commenting behavior, how would they even begin to defend themselves given that only mods and staff can see deleted comments? Are the rules outlined in this post going to be applied even though the community does not seem to agree with them?


Lastly, I 'd like to share this insightful quote from a FAQ answer on meta.SE about comment deletion by Shog:

There are almost always more useful things to do than to stress about comments.

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  • 1
    Isn't there an option to respond to the mod message directly?
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 18:22
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    For anyone interested, there is a comment archive hosted here. The only downside to it is it's hard to see the comments in context to one another; which plays into interpreting tone.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 18:25
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    @TylerH there is, but as the contents seem highly relevant to the current debate about comments on meta, I think we can all benefit from transparency here. I also replied to the mod message immediately after posting the question to make sure they are aware of it.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 18:25
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    this story of a Faraway Site looks closely related: "And there's one more thing you better know about this Faraway Site, the typical approach over there was that if user doesn't comply with the notice they got suspended..."
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 18:27
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    The last part comes across a bit snarky, even to a non-mod... Perhaps edit that out?
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 0:16
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    @JL2210 I removed the last sentence, but kept the quote as I wholeheartedly agree with it.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 7:39

4 Answers 4

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I came back to the site to discover a post had been totally derailed with a question posted as an answer and argumentative comment threads every where.

When are comments deleted on Meta Stack Overflow?

I went into the moderator chatroom and expressed how annoyed I was and asked what do you think I should do. There were several other mods in the room and a community manager. I asked the community manager to look at the entire post and asked for advice. The CM suggested sending a mod message and I did.

There were insults and people taking things out of context and arguments. I asked one of the moderators to also stop commenting on these threads. The entire post had been derailed, and I posted it to get stuff out to keep people informed.

I've had a headache for going on two days now and I find it disrespectful when I've gone out of my way to advocate for meta to have things stomped on. It hurts. If people have an issue with a particular moderator, don't take it out on everyone else who's trying to make the site a better place.

As the moderator who has handled more meta flags than any other moderator over the past 18 months, my moderation style has not changed in that time. I resent being stomped on and disrespected. I badger the employees to have changes made - more or less continuously. I've gone above and beyond for this community. I feel a strong connection with this community and it hurts me when people disregard the enormous efforts I make to try and keep people informed.

Yes there is one moderator deleting more comments than usual, but through all this, the comment flagging has rapidly increased. Meaning people in the community want comments cleaned up.

It is also noteworthy - I did not threaten to suspend anyone and it's a canned moderator message that's been used for years. Yes I'm too tired to do more than that.

People are misconstruing wanting to tidy up comments with censorship. I created a dedicated chatroom for our community so they didn't feel cut off. I've offered to attend the room daily and be pingable in there. Please- show the same courtesy to me, that I'm showing you.

Creating a dedicated chatroom for Meta Stack Overflow

There are almost always more useful things to do than to stress about comments.

I entirely agree, and would suggest mods set their priorities accordingly.

Moderators are human beings too. Be mindful. Stop being sarcastic. I'm tired and my head is hurting.

I couldn't have made it clearer, there's a new sheriff in town and things are changing.

The world is big and I am SO small. What are the implications for our meta community with the changes in Stack Overflow??

Disrespecting people and arguing about this constantly is only going to alienate those last people who have any power or sway left on the site, the moderators. I urge you to stop this. For the first time in 8 years I said I don't care if meta is closed. If you lose the support of your moderators there will be no advocates or voice for this community. So stop pushing back on us. We're doing a difficult job.

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    Seems like there's plenty of resentment to go around, lately. It is good to at least know that I am not on the cusp of suspension. There is much that I am tempted to say in response to this that in the grand scheme of things would serve little purpose, so I'll say only this instead: we understand you are in horrible circumstances right now, and do not envy them. Please don't mistake fighting for the future of the site for personal animus, even if we find ourselves in opposing battle lines. And try not to let current events break you down.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 21:31
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    @MarkAmery that does help. Yeh it feels like it's degenerating into a war and I don't like that. You're no where near a suspension. I probably should have left the CM to send the mod messages.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 21:37
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    Thanks for taking the time to reply, and I hope your headache will get better. I'm sorry if my comments came across as disrespecting your work as this was not my intention - especially not you personally, as I recognize you've been fighting for us users. I don't entirely agree with the actions taken (mostly the confusing message contents) but can understand it given the circumstances. And re-reading the archive, I got saltier than I should have been (due to multiple exchanges with one mod that felt more and more futile), which I'll keep in mind going forward.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 21:57
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    I've accepted this answer to pin the "official" reply to the top. As for the contents, in addition to what I wrote above, the comment by @MarkAmery expresses my sentiment better than I could have.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 22:06
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    @l4mpi thank you for those supportive words. I'm going to nap and see if I can shake this headache.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 22:11
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    Don't forget that we're all here to support you -- no mod message will change that.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 0:18
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    Everybody on meta gets stomped on and disrespected these last few days, so lets say at least nobody's alone in that misery...
    – sth
    Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 0:33
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    @YvetteColomb Have you considered taking a break? Your own wellness is more important than this comment debate. I've been hard on you in the past, as you may remember. But I still care that you don't get overwhelmed in all this, even if our viewpoints different on particulars.
    – mason
    Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 3:19
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    @mason can I tell you something. There's no one person I dislike on meta. Sometimes I can get frustrated, but I've grown a real affection for all the people I interact with on here. Disagreement is fine. It's what helps fine tune better solutions. It's just going around in circles drives me nuts (and everyone I suspect). I am addicted to the site and in such a habit of coming here now I feel lost when I take a break :) I must say that the community support in comments like yours goes a long way in helping and for that I thank you all xx
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 3:24
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Some relevant facts:

It is also relevant that my response to that final moderator comment expressed undisguised irritation at the mod I was replying to. I suppose you are at liberty to judge me as harshly or leniently as you choose for posting it, given the context.

All things considered, I agree that this mod message was an unwarranted response - both because a moderator was engaging in precisely the behavior we have been disciplined for to a greater degree than us, and because jumping to disciplinary action for violations of the new comment policy in the context of a discussion about clarifying the new comment policy doesn't exactly allow a reasonable discussion to take place or give anybody involved a fair chance at abiding by the rules.

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    FWIW, you can also list all the comments on a post by searching for its post ID. For example, here are the comments on your post.
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 20:01
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    @KevinB When the "he" in question is the person doing the disciplining, I disagree - especially when the ink is not yet dried on the rules in question, and we're trying to figure out what they mean. If you follow a policeman across a road in a strange country you woke up in one day, and then one of his colleagues turns up to the scene and arrests only you for jaywalking, it's the policemen's fault, not yours.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 20:33
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    @MarkAmery There are 20 mods. What makes you think it was me? Also: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/388158/…
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 20:34
  • @GeorgeStocker Point taken. Sorry for the error. I've edited my prior comment accordingly (feel free to delete these last three by you/Kevin/me as obsolete), and I don't think it changes the point much.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 20:38
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    You were not threatened with suspension.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 20:51
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    @YvetteColomb Thank you - that's a welcome and very helpful clarification of intent. I was unsure how seriously to take the allusion to suspension in the sidebar. I've just edited this answer accordingly.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 20:53
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    @MarkAmery I've written an answer meta.stackoverflow.com/a/388170/3956566 I am the one who sent the messages. I've given an account of what led to that. I wish people would understand the stress some of the mods are starting to feel. I understand why the community is upset, but there's only a handful of us to bare the brunt of this load. Honestly, even George is trying his hardest to relate to people and improve things. It's just he's come in late and is super active and it's rubbing people up the wrong way.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 21:11
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    I've uploaded a screenshot of the comment thread here. I was going to add it to your answer but I realized that it shows my upvotes, and I know some people are prickly about that. So just FYI it's there, feel free to include it (or if anyone has the patience to anonymize it they can do that). Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 21:30
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    @AndrasDeak note that the screenshot does not include the any of George's self-deleted comments, so the archive link filtered by post ID is IMO preferable as it seems to show all comments.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 22:00
  • @l4mpi good point, thanks, and I've missed Andrew's first comment here. I guess then I just suggest moving that link into the answer rather than linking to the transcript. Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 22:05
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    @AndrewT. Thanks for that! Wasn't aware they were getting archived, and I found this gem.
    – mason
    Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 3:21
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Comment moderation on Meta is not a treatise on comment scope on Meta, and it should never become one.

The way I've always viewed it, comments which need to be dealt with via moderators are the ones which don't add value to the discussion. The fact that the discussion itself is hard to follow is an acute weakness of the comments system, and pigeonholing that with (what I view as) another broken tool is not constructive.

The community is free to disagree with what gets moderated, but I too don't see that as largely constructive. Moderation needs to happen.

But this message reads like it's meant for Stack Overflow and someone who posts a ton of comments on Stack Overflow, not Meta.

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It's lived practice on meta in contrast to main that there are lively discussions and debates taking place also in the comments. The message you got kind of denies the validity of this and this means that there is at least some gap between what the mods seem to think there ought to be and what is happening every day. This should merit some dedicated discussion. You should open a topic about it, unless there are already topics about it. The mods should maybe also open topics about it, asking for input from the community. The mods should finally follow the consensus of the community. It's not their job to lead, but to serve the community. Maybe I'm mistaken there. This could also warrant another dedicated discussion.

My two cents: this was meant to be a bit of light pressuring but with all the work that mods have to do it's understandable to send canned messages.

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  • Some discussions have been had and we will likely have more. One such discussion is this one.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 12:27
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    I agree that mods should seek community input and follow the consensus. But for the specific case, I think Yvettes answer explains what happened here: she was (justifiably) annoyed at her faq-proposal being derailed by an answer responding to another mod, and the comment chain below that answer being non-constructive and slipping into rudeness. So she cleaned up and due to a lack of time sent canned messages to the involved users. While the message should have been different, I do agree with the cleanup in general, so personally I wouldn't say it left me with a bad taste after being explained.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 13:02
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    @l4mpi I see. I also should have read Yvettes answer better. Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 13:54

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