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Yesterday, I noticed that one of the non-salvageable questions I had contributed towards closure was edited to no longer include its original content (it was something along the lines of "I just searched over the internet and found the answers that I was looking for"). I reverted the edit and posted a comment to warn that this isn't good conduct for the site. The reply ended up not being so good.

enter image description here

Of course, one could draw some various remarks from this exchange. The comment was terser than the OP had wished. I also know that I did not have to comment, and that I'm bound to find toxicity sooner or later from this. I never really checked my brain's volume either.

However, I would like to focus on the word "vandalizing". Saying that the question or answer was vandalized did not strike me as something directly insulting to say. In fact, it's often employed for this sort of issue here on Meta, and my own comment was based on one which is publicly hosted in a list for automatic comments. The original would have read like this:

Please do not vandalize your posts. By posting on the Stack Exchange network, you've granted a non-revocable right for SE to distribute that content (under the CC BY-SA 3.0 license). By SE policy, any vandalism will be reverted.

Given the circumstances, and just to be sure: is it appropriate to use the word "vandalize" or its variants for inappropriate modifications to questions and answers? What other ways can we portray the same meaning, or warn the user not to do this?

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    Once you posted on the SE network it is expected that an edit improves the post. That last edited wasn't improving the post and therefor reverted. Please review your edit and make a new improving edit. If that is not possible, leave it as is. See the legal stuff about the non-revocable right for SE to distribute that content
    – rene
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 10:56
  • 1
    Not sure if that goes well either, it still doesn't comply with their personal end-goal, which is removing the content.
    – rene
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 10:59
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    I have some small, (yeah - vanishingly small), sympathy with the OP, after all, the comments are very insulting to lawyers, prosecutors, judges etc... Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 12:57
  • 2
    ... in the smallest [brains] the best ideas? Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 13:59
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    Just checked, my brain's volume is 1.8774 L, a little smaller than average.
    – Davy M
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 15:50
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    What about the OP's response made you think "vandalize" is offensive? The fact he completely overreacted and started insulting you?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 10:12
  • 7
    @E_net4: So, the fact he completely overreacted ;-)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 10:30
  • 15
    I too am insulted by the word "vandalize". Is should be an "s" not a "z". Damn you non-British English speakers ruining our lovely words!
    – Turnip
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 15:04
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    @Turnip: yes, us Brits should be proud of the French origin of the 's' form!
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 15:24
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    @halfer I'm too insulted to listen to your logical and reasoned arguments.
    – Turnip
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 15:31
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    We should use words as they are defined. This person's overreaction and rude backlash has no impact on the word -- they likely would have said the same thing no matter the adjective. No need to overhaul our dictionary because of these acts Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 18:01
  • 4
    Sounds like the other person overreacted.. In this context, "Vandalize" isn't insulting. However, it does carry a slightly negative connotation and the implication the act was performed out of malice. (Ignoring this specific case...) Often people erase content simply out of ignorance about how S.O. functions. IMO, the "canned" verbiage on this topic could be a little milder. Especially if the goal of the "blurb" is to educate people on site rules. (IIRC, one of the previous "blurbs" on this topic did use a different term than "vandalize").
    – SOS
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 18:21
  • 4
    @Turnip don't overdramatize. Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 7:58
  • 2
    The term "vandalize" stereotypes an ethnic group and thus should be avoided.
    – Ryan Lundy
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 9:51
  • 4
    Wow! My joking response to Turnip's comment about using "s" versus "z" (something like Ztop diztoring our wordz!) was actually deleted... Given all the off topic jokes in this thread, that is ... very surprising indeed. Guess someone found the deliberate misspellings offensive ;-)
    – SOS
    Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 3:01

13 Answers 13

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"Vandalising" is a perfectly appropriate word to describe many (most, I hazard) instances of post defacement. That said, O.O.Balance and BDL have a point in that in this specific case (a closed question with no answers that, I presume, wasn't a blatant homework dump) the OP deserved the benefit of the doubt, as, going by your description, it looked more like a misunderstanding than willful destruction. A comment like this, accompanied by a rollback, would probably have been enough:

There is no need to remove the question text in situations like this one. Just leave the question as it is (or delete it yourself -- it is fine to do that as long as your question has no answers).

For the typical case of hiding-your-tracks defacement, I tend to rollback and leave a laconic comment in the spirit of the one you had posted:

Please do not vandalise questions -- even if you happen to have posted them.

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verb: vandalize

deliberately destroy or damage (public or private property).

Since that’s precisely what happened, yes, the word is fine to use. No, it is not “insulting”, “bullying”, or anything similar. It’s not your fault the OP doesn’t know what the word means (or that they do know what it means, but nonetheless insist that they’ve been “insulted”).

The only inappropriate behaviour here was the OP’s insults at you - just flag those as rude/abusive and move on.

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    I agree, and the flag was placed right after I read the comment. Still, I took the benefit of the doubt and wonder whether the word could be worrisome in an international context. :)
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 11:07
  • 13
    Yeah I can understand why you asked. Personally I think that anyone saying this particular word has insulted them is being disingenuous, perhaps in an attempt to deflect from their own shortcomings. But what do I know :)
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 11:12
  • 4
    While the OP response is inappropriate, it doesn't matter. The question is not about whether he should flag his response as rude. But if he himself had been rude. Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 16:31
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    That may be a definition literally but vandalism is actually a crime in a lot of places and it is kind of threatening to use the term and insulting in terms of calling OP a criminal. Adding legalese does not help. I would prefer to tell the poster how to delete the question if that is what they wanted, or just flag it for deletion and do a close vote. Of course OP was very wrong.
    – Elin
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 19:38
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    Can you explain why you feel the "deliberately" in the definition applies in this case? Although it is clear enough that the OP deliberately tried to destroy something, it is not clear that the OP was aware that it was seen as public. Damaging your own stuff that you have the right to destroy is not vandalism. If you only realise after the fact that it's not your own stuff and you had no right to destroy it, I would say that your definition says it's still not vandalism.
    – user743382
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 21:23
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    Not defending the vandal, but while ignorance of the law is no excuse, ignorance of the factual circumstances can be. Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 6:18
  • 1
    @NathanTuggy What you say applies to knowingly destroying someone else's property, not knowingly destroying something you reasonably believe to be your own. (Though you might still be accountable for damages, I suppose.) Do you have any real world equivalent where someone was considered guilty of vandalism for destroying or defacing property they believed to be their own?
    – user743382
    Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 7:19
  • 2
    @hvd: I'm not a lawyer, but you can pick up a friendly illustrated guide to criminal law on this very subject written by an actual lawyer here (and on the next page). It says that a "mistake of fact" ("I thought those drinks were already paid for!") is not a defense. Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 7:32
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    @NathanTuggy Wow. It says the total opposite of what you're implying. It says it's not a defense because "a defense is something that lets you get away with something that's ordinarily a crime", and it says it's useful as evidence "that there was no crime in the first place". In other words, it says it's not a defense because of a technicality in the definition of the word "defense".
    – user743382
    Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 8:23
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    @Elin wrong argument, I’m British. American Constitutional amendments and the American government never apply to anything I say. They certainly have no place being mentioned in this discussion.
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 12:42
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    No even more so, saying that something is a crime when it is not based on the rules of the state is incorrect. Organizations have rules and norms, they are not governments. The First Amendment is just an example of rhetoric that is similar to the argument being used here is. I am sure in the UK crimes are handled by the government and accusing someone of a crime for whatever non criminal thing you mean (talking too long, Trump making the Queen wait or something) is not appropriate. It's straight overdramatic.
    – Elin
    Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 17:16
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    Haven't the poor vandals suffered enough from that Visigoth invasion in 418 ad and acts of Roman imperialism in 533 ad. I demand that you no further discriminate against them by taking their name in vain. Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 14:33
  • 3
    Vandalism doesn't merely have a negative connotation, it is an explicitly malicious act. Unless you have some evidence of the actor's frame of mind, choosing a more apt term, one that doesn't presume intent but that describes the outcome (like "alter," "erase," or "destroy") is more helpful.
    – erickson
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 19:04
  • 2
    Clive: "verb: vandalize deliberately destroy or damage (public or private property). Since that’s precisely what happened, yes, the word is fine to use." Vandalizing is the damage/destruction by malicious intent. It not only describes the RESULT (the post being less beneficial after edit). But it presumes the OP wants to harm the community, which I understand the OP considers offensive. It's obvious to me that he just wanted to declare the question closed. It was inappropriate to do it this way. He should have deleted it, or better provide his solution. But VANDALIZE is inappropriate, here.
    – Michael S.
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 22:08
  • 3
    We’ll just have to agree to disagree Michael.
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 22:56
29

The definition of vandalism doesn't really matter. Nor the overreacted answer from the OP.

While the usage of this word is perfectly valid here; bear in mind that it possesses a pejorative connotation. In the end, the OP just innocently wanted others to know he found a solution. He didn't want to deliberately destroy his question.

The OP may not even understand how it falls into the vandalism category. Instead, you could have explained to him why it is important to keep the question intact.

Something like the following would be more helpful and less aggressive:

If you found a solution, instead consider leaving the question as is and post your solution as an answer to your own question. This will help future users facing the same problem

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    The question itself was closed as too broad before the edit, so that particular advice does not fully apply.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 17:15
  • 10
    That's another topic though. In the end the problem is your comment didn't guide the user on the right path. It simply said "You're doing something bad. Go read the doc". Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 17:22
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    ' In the end, the OP just innocently wanted others to know he found a solution' - you know that how? Do you know the OP personally? Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 17:25
  • 2
    Granted, I admit the part where rephrasing my comment to sound less accusatory is beneficial. However, if I were to go all the way here in terms of guidance, it would have most likely involved some other things they usually don't want to hear: How to Ask, etc.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 17:26
  • 6
    But that's extrapolating. If a problem emerges we can think about it in due time. I think a big part of the rudeness debate lies in the difference between moderating and guiding. Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 17:42
  • 2
    @MartinJames If that was intentional then this question doesn't make sense. If he purposefully destroyed content, then that needs a moderator intervention/potential ban. And the fact that the OP thinks it's rude wouldn't matter Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 17:58
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    @RémiRousselet like a 1-rep burner account user cares about bans. Suspensions and bans are only effective sanctions when used against those with notable rep and one account. The rest don't give a PHP about such actions. Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 12:19
  • 1
    @MartinJames "Don't give a PHP" killed me Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 17:44
12

"Vandalize" is standard terminology for what happened there.
The OP completely overreacted and started insulting you.

I see no reason to change your wording based on these events.
We shouldn't be "Less confrontational" every single time some ignorant user blows a comment way out of proportion.
We can't please everyone, and you can't prevent anyone from feeling insulted over trivial matters. Stop adapting to extremes like that.

4

Star Trek has some words of wisdom for you and the person suggesting that using the word "vandalizing" is somehow harming them:

You see, in our century, we've learned not to fear words.

Video of source (0:17)

Don't worry about your word choice that much. Just make sure it's accurate and professional.

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    If we should be telling upset OPs to learn not to fear words, we're in for some exquisite fun.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 8:38
  • 4
    It's not like I wouldn't like our society to learn. But that is not something we can do, nor something we're supposed to do, on this site.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 8:51
  • 1
    If not you and not here, then who and where? It isn't something that you can isolate to any particular arena of life.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 8:58
  • 1
    How exactly are we in charge of their education now? Not every place earns an education and etiquette school because that is supposedly what schools are for. Please, let us leave education to actual schools and focus on making a repository of quality questions and answers.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 9:42
  • 1
    @E_net4 Oh, this is not merely education. This is life experience, learning to handle being told you didn't live up to a standard. It used to be that you'd experience it during your education, but our institutions for education have really dropped the ball on it. So the duty falls to everyone else. Of course you can't force them to accept it or digest it, but that doesn't mean you can't behave in a way that they experience it. And really, that's the best thing you can do for them. The salient point here is you don't have to and shouldn't coddle them.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 10:28
3

I agree that vandalizing was the correct term and that there is no excuse for answering you with such a comment.

BUT: Especially for new users your comment could have also been less confrontational. Something like

Please don't edit "Problem solved" into your question. If you are not interested in an answer any more consider deleting the question.

would have achieved the same goal without threatening them with licensing terms. Your current comment reads (at least to me) as "You've done something terrible bad and if you violate our license again we will sue you.". No wonder the OP didn't take it that well.

Pointing someone to the license is (IMHO) only appropriate when you feel that someone removed content to prevent it from being found (e.g. homework help that shouldn't be found) or when someone really insists on removing content. Not when someone misunderstood how the site works.

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    It is not easily possible to identify new users, only new accounts. That Q. may have been the 100th account and 100th bad question from the user. Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 17:28
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    @MartinJames So what? We are not moderators. It's not our role to judge peoples nor to blame them. If someone created 100 accounts with as much bad questions then it is not our role to punish him. Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 22:57
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    @RémiRousselet we are. SO is moderated, for the most part, by ordinary users. That's how it works. My comment above took issue with your 'Especially for new users' phrase - such users cannot be identified. 'New accounts' would be more accurate. That would include all the puppets, ring-voters, ban-evasion and one-per-week homework burner accounts. It's good to be inclusive:) Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 12:12
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    @Cerbrus while the OP clearly need a blame for his response; his code edition didn't necessarily need to classify him as a vandalizer Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 12:15
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    @RémiRousselet: Look at my answer. "Vandalize" is standard terminology that doesn't need to change just because some poor soul got "offended". As high rep users, it is our job to moderate SO.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 12:17
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    "Illegitimate child" is also the definition for "bastard". That doesn't mean it's ok to call peoples as such. "Vandalize" is harsh Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 12:18
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    @RémiRousselet: "Harsh" is not the same as "offensive". Don't sugarcoat it, the edit was bad and in violation of SE policy, and the editor should be made aware. But I guess we can't tell them that, since "in violation" is harsh as well. It's impossible not to offend anyone. People will always find a reason to get offended, no matter how you word your message. I personally think overly polite sugarcoated talk is extremely offensive. Just get to the damn point.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 12:23
  • 1
    But then the current issue of "Stackexhange is too harsh for newcomers" will never end if we don't change. I agree that it was the right wording. But sometimes we just need a tutorial. Not starting right of the bat with a blame. Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 12:28
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    @RémiRousselet: The problem is that that view is forced on us, experienced users. We have no say in that debate.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 12:32
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    I'm not saying "Don't correct peoples". But that doesn't mean we can do it however we want to either. Take a step back will you? It can be very frustrating that on your first question, someone you don't know edit your question without your consent nor warning. Then just drop a link + "Don't do that". And leave without answering your potential questions. Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 15:37
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    Just beause life can be frustrating doesn't make it a valid reason to purposefully not trying to improve things. Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 15:40
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    Well that just comes down to your own personal opinion of what “improve” means. My opinion is wildly different to yours it would seem.
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 15:56
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    But then, why do it at all? Nobody forces you to comment. This is a community website, so respect for others is in order. Deliberately posting comments that are known to be badly received by a non-negligible part of the community is disrespecting them. Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 16:14
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    @RémiRousselet - 'This is a community website, so respect for others is in order' - on Sundays, 90% of questions, on some tags, show no respect at all for the volunteer efforts of SO contributors - they just want homework answers written by some mark who is stup... naive enough to do it for them. I have no respect for no-effort homework dumps, vandals and all the rest of the abusers. If a user defaces a question, s/he is a vandal, and I don't care if its a new account or Jon Skeet;( Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 16:25
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    @MartinJames Then just flag it and call it a day. The message associated to a close already contains the link you'd give them anyway. Pointless frustration on both sides. Nobody wins. Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 16:54
-2

From Wikipedia:

The Vandals were a large East Germanic tribe or group of tribes that first appear in history inhabiting present-day southern Poland. Some later moved in large numbers, including most notably the group which successively established kingdoms in the Iberian Peninsula and then North Africa in the 5th century.

The modern English words "vandal", and "vandalism" are directly derived from the name of the Vandal tribes. Presumably the tribes were doing what a lot of other groups were doing at the time, but the losers in history are always recorded as the villains.

I would be surprised if anyone alive today would identify as an ethnic Vandal. And any that did are holding onto some sketchy genealogy as an opportunity to be different.

If the concept of Political Correctness had existed in the 6th Century then, yes, I could agree that some people could have found the pejorative use of the word offensive at the time. It's the 21st Century now - I don't think we have to be worried.

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    I see a downvote. It might seem unlikely that this is what the user was referring to when they called "vandalism" an insult, but this is the Internet... you never know.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 15:32
  • 8
    @pnuts Etymology is frequently —and often erroneously—cited as a reason to be offended by a word. My answer attempts to put that to rest in this instance.
    – Peter Hall
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 15:47
  • 17
    That mini history lesson is missing the part that actually matters. "Vandalism" doesn't refer to what they did in Spain and North Africa (which is actually mostly well regarded by history); it's about the time they got involved in an imperial civil war and sacked Rome. Unlike the Goths, they didn't kill everyone or burn the city down—but they did things like stripping off the roof of the most important building in the world (the Temple of Jupiter Capitolinus) for the small amount of gold in the tiles. Which is exactly the kind of thing people mean by "vandalism".
    – abarnert
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 21:32
  • 6
    I desperately want to make a Cultural Appropriation joke Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 23:35
  • 2
    I don't really see how the history / origin of the word is relevant here?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 10:01
-4

Vandalism is a technical term used by people with "medium sized brains".

The assertion "you have a small brain" is juvenile and absolutely irrelevant. It is probable that the author of the juvenile response did not know that vandalism was a "technical term" used by people with "medium sized brains" and was mistakenly "responding in kind".

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism

On Wikipedia, vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a free encyclopedia, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge.

The malicious removal of encyclopedic content, or the changing of such content beyond all recognition, without any regard to our core content policies of neutral point of view (which does not mean no point of view), verifiability and no original research, is a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia. There, of course, exist more juvenile forms of vandalism, such as adding irrelevant obscenities or crude humor to a page, illegitimately blanking pages, and inserting obvious nonsense into a page. Abusive creation or usage of user accounts and IP addresses may also constitute vandalism.

Vandalism is prohibited. While editors are encouraged to warn and educate vandals, warnings are by no means a prerequisite for blocking a vandal (although administrators usually only block when multiple warnings have been issued).

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    How is Wikipedia's internal usage of the word relevant to Stack Overflow? Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 19:35
  • 25
    @O.O.Balance - well, I would say that Stack Overflow is in the "Wikipedia class" of websites. SO may have it's own specification for what constitutes vandalism, but it would almost certainly be modeled after Wikipedia's specification. The issue is that "the kid" shouldn't be surprised or offended by the term. I think it's comical.
    – Thaw
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 19:49
-8

When OPs decide that an overblown reaction to a post has occurred, including agrumentum ad hominem, the OPs may want that post deleted as noncontributory to the site. The arguments presented in this stream suggest that although OPs have authored posts, they are vandals with respect to their own words even if they are victims of mob action because they further have no ownership of their words; the site owns them.

Somehow something is lacking in the argument. A reputation is yours to lose, but the site owns its impolite action with respect to you. This seems to be an antidemocratic approach to contribution and a turnoff.

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    It is not anti-democratic when we have a community-wide consensus that the edit was pointless and the question should have just been deleted. I also fail to see where the ad hominem argument occurred.
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 18:23
  • I also feel that there is some overreaction over the subject and the downvotes on your answer and following comment. Please be more reasonable. They represent disagreement, not that "you should just shut up".
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 18:26
  • @E_net4 See this question. A hypothetical argumentum ad hominem is not always a given. It was propositional. In one of the comments, the OP was indeed told to "shut up."
    – Carl
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 18:28
  • 3
    Again, I fail to see how that is an ad hominem argument. I understand that you seem to be taking criticism as a personal attack, which does not show you in a good light. However, you cannot equate this to the main reason for the downvotes.
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 18:32
  • 1
    Vandals to their own words? No, not quite. But vandals to the content licensed to Stack Overflow when they posted it? Yes, yes indeed. By purposefully making the content completely unrecognizable, the user "vandalizes" the content, and therefore the site, in a way. Please keep in mind that once you post content on the site... It's licensed to SO.
    – Kendra
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 18:34
  • @E_net4 I quote "If you don't understand the business model don't volunteer your time here, or elsewhere." You see this as not being personal? You see this as not being unkind? Downvote all you like, I no longer care. I think I will refrain from further comment, this exceeds the bounds of civility.
    – Carl
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 18:39
  • Well, I actually stand corrected on that particular comment, as it was a bit off. However, this question is about the use of the term "vandalizing", not about that kind of comment.
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 18:48
  • @E_net4 I am not missing the point, I was attempting to make a point namely that unkindness, and excessive downvoting (mob behaviour) without due cause are some motives for wanting to delete a question, and the urge to protect oneself from said excesses is not 'vandalism'; it is common sense. That the OP cannot back away from a hornet's nest is hardly becoming. Nasty behaviour is never justified.
    – Carl
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 18:58
  • 3
    Again, why is downvoting, "nasty"? Why is mass downvoting a hornet's nest? You're equating simple disagreement with mob behaviour, assuming that the perpetrators are rioting and causing damage. Why is a downvote, "vindictive"? You've got all these negative metaphors for what is, essentially, people not agreeing with you.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 19:01
  • 1
    You could make that a separate question, but those concerns have already been discussed around Meta multiple times already, which makes it hard to bring something new and worthwhile to the table. My comment advising to delete the question being perceived as unkind is terribly subjective, for the record.
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 19:03
  • @fbueckert I am speaking of a larger context about downvoting, not every site is neutral with respect to downvoting, in some of them downvoting loses reputation for its recipient which is the currency for that site.
    – Carl
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 19:05
  • 4
    @Carl The barrier for upvoting and downvoting needs to be as close together as possible. Anything else skews the quality metric, generally in an undesirable way. If you raise the barrier for downvoting to requiring expertise, that's exactly where upvoting has to be, too.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 19:14
  • 2
    @Carl That's why I said as close as possible; yes, there is a difference. For good reason, I believe. But once you get that privilege, it needs to require the exact set of rules that upvotes do. What is, "Truth value"? The point of a vote isn't to state objectively, "This is right" or, "This is wrong". It's meant to go, "I believe this post is right, good or useful", or, "I believe this post is wrong, not good, or not useful." Check the tooltip for more information. It's there so that we, as readers, can provide feedback as to our interpretation of the value of the content.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 19:47
  • 2
    @Carl You also have to suspend your confirmation bias to believe it's a currently flawed practice. Works both ways. If you believe there is a better way, make an argument on Meta about it. I suspect it won't get a warm reception, however, as it completely ignores the value of downvotes, and assumes that the entire SE process is flawed by using them. I would handily disagree with that, but would invite you to make your case, if you don't mind the disagreement that comes with it.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 20:13
  • 1
    I believe SE's processes follows the most basic of the scientific method: it's subject to peer review, and, little by little, is modified to make it better. The fact that you're not willing to subject your proposal to peer review is telling.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Oct 9, 2018 at 20:56
-9

Merriam-Webster's online dictionary defines vandalism as

willful or malicious destruction or defacement of public or private property

Now, I don't think the OP of that question wanted to "destroy or deface" it, let alone that their intent was "malicious".

What they probably did not understand was that we are trying to

build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming.

They came to Stack Overflow to get an answer to their question. When that didn't happen, they solved the problem themselves and edited the question to say so. That does not strike me as vandalism.

When someone is accused of vandalism, or other malicious behaviour, they generally do not take it so well. Especially since in this case, they thought the accusation unfounded.

So in cases like this, assume good intentions on the part of the OP instead, and explain why the edit was not in the spirit of the site. Or just link them to the tour page. Keep in mind, you do not have to engage with people in that way at all. Rolling back the edit is perfectly fine on its own (leaving a short, neutral revision comment to the effect that you restored the question is probably warranted though).

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    Why is the burden of assume good intentions not required of the accuser? The definition can be extrapolated as wilful defacement of property, why does the accuser have to assume the malicious part was intended? I think this screams of double standards
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 11:20
  • 5
    @Clive I'm not saying the OP was in the right posting his response and insulting E_net4. What I am saying is, when a user who is new to the site makes an edit like that, assume they didn't understand why such an edit is bad – calling it vandalism without further explanation implies they know what they did wrong, and won't help them change their behaviour. Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 11:27
  • 11
    I think you misunderstood me. I can assume they didn’t understand what they were doing was bad, that’s fine, no problem there. But why does that preclude the use of a word that perfectly describes what they did? The definition here isn’t exclusively malicious, why would the new user immediately assume that the malicious definition was the intended one? Or more to the point, why do they get to do that, when we have to assume only good intentions?
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 11:31
  • 3
    @Clive It does not. However, I don't agree that the behaviour is accurately described as vandalism. Taking your definition of "deliberately destroy or damage": I'm arguing the OP did not know their edit "damaged" the post (because of their misconception of what SO is). So, they did not "deliberately" but rather unknowingly and unintentionally damage the post (or at least that's what I suggest we assume). That is not vandalism. Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 11:37
  • 13
    Sure, but I guess if you spray paint a wall, but claim you didn’t know you weren’t supposed to, you still get booked for vandalism. To be honest I don’t have that much of a problem with what you’ve said specifically, I’m just sick of having to debate the use of every single word because some bleeding heart claims it’s offensive to them. At some point, if everyday language offends you, that’s your problem, not the people speaking the language. Rant finished, off to enjoy the sunshine ;)
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 4, 2018 at 11:52
  • 3
    @Clive it was raining in my place ytd... I hope you are now aware your use of "sunshine" offended me (god...... I can't see how some of these "bleeding hearts", as you call them, can't even realize how they sound -_-)
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 14:16
  • 2
    @Patrice My humble apologies. But you didn't capitalise "God" so I'm going to be offended by that. Call it a draw? :P
    – Clive
    Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 14:30
  • 2
    @Clive Touché! But we're past the edit window for comment.... should I flag for moderator attention to get this offense corrected? I am now ashamed :(
    – Patrice
    Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 14:30
-11

First of all: his comment was completely unnecessary and ungrounded.

Even though the response on your comment wasn't appropriate, attacking it is not logical and seems like the typical strawman argument.. Rather try to solve the problem and avoid people misinterpreting the word "vandalizing" in the future I'd say. Communication is always 2 way traffic.

The word "vandalizing" has the connotation that destroying or damaging something would be deliberate while it doesn't have to be this way. (people can be new!)

Answering your question which asks

Should we say “vandalizing” to refer to defaced content?"

I would rather use the word "disfiguring".

Depending on the intention of the person disfiguring a post, it can be considered vandalism though. This might as well have been vandalism, but assuming this is ungrounded.

Saying that it's completely certain that he vandalized is the typical ad hominem argument and is a logical fallacy.

2
  • 1
    Well, it sure has been said in other answers that the elephant in the room does not lie in the actual word. However, it is not an ad hominem argument. I would have used the work "vandalized" in its technical meaning, regardless of who asked (and later defaced) the question and what the original intentions were along with the edit.
    – E_net4
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 15:32
  • I'm pretty sure that someone insulted by the term 'vandalizing' is going to be just as insulted by the term 'disfiguring'. Also some forms of vandalism (such as the typical DELETE ME) is not subject to uncertainty. There may be cases where it is, but the ones I've seen are very clear-cut.
    – Shadow
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 6:23
-11

I don't think 'Vandalism' was an appropriate word here. You had a part in closing the question as unsalvagable, right? How does the question any longer have a value? You and others had already decided to throw it onto the SO trash heap.

While the edit certainly didn't improve the value of what was posted and caused more work for the edit review queue, I wouldn't say that it decreased the value either, or it shouldn't have been closed as non-salvageable. It's the difference between spray painting a smiley face on your neighbor's car hood, or on a rusted old hood laying in a ditch somewhere.

Given the circumstances, and just to be sure: is it appropriate to use the word "vandalize" or its variants for inappropriate modifications to questions and answers? What other ways can we portray the same meaning, or warn the user not to do this?

Vandalize in general is a fine word to use in general for inappropriate modifications to questions and answers if they detract value, but I think 'inappropriate edit' is more correct here and softens the negative connotation, or better yet explain to them why it is bad...

Questions should only be edited to make them more clear or provide more information. You should be able to delete your own question.

The code of conduct says we should be nice, is calling them a vandal nice?

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    "Vandalize" is the standard term to describe this kind of behavior.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 9:44
  • @Cerbrus How is it defined? Commented Aug 8, 2018 at 16:17
-14

I would like to focus on the word "vandalizing".

Not sure if you can vandalize your own work. That sounds a bit strange. After all you could delete your own question (as was proposed in the comment) and that would not be regarded as vandalism, or would it? Maybe there is another, better fitting word.

What about "removing content" which is much more specific than vandalize and also doesn't possess a pejorative conotation.

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    Based on the licensing conditions, people replacing their question with "delete me" filler text have often been regarded as vandals, on the basis their question no longer belongs to them. Deletion is in an odd category, and it's a bit harder to call that defacement outright, but I've certainly seen mods undelete a question based on the fact that answerers have had their time wasted by an ingrate.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 12:31
  • @halfer Deletion of a question within specific limitations is part StackOverflow. We could discuss how that goes together with the content license in a separate topic if you like. Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 13:44
  • 2
    @pnuts Not really. ;) Commented Aug 5, 2018 at 20:50
  • @halfer The author of the post still owns the content. They haven't given up ownership by posting here. They've merely given other people certain rights to the content that they still own. One of those rights is the rights to publish the content (under that license and with credit given).
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 15:18
  • @Servy: sure, from a licensing perspective. I guess what I am saying is that question authors lose the right to insist on a low-quality version, and thus ownership does not trump quality standards. Ergo, it is possible to vandalise one's "own" work.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 15:22
  • 2
    @halfer The point here is that they gave SO the right to publish the earlier revision of the post, and SO is allowed to exercise that right to publish the content, even if the owner, wants it to be changed. But the author still owns it, even though SO is allowed to publish any of the versions.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 15:24
  • @Servy: sounds like we're in agreement then :-)
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 6, 2018 at 15:29
  • 1
    The irony is here that although vandalizing probably better describes the action and I kind of agree with it now, the intention of the OP was clearly to remove content, not vandalize it. He just didn't find the right mean to achieve his goal. Commented Aug 7, 2018 at 8:16

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