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I've just discovered that there is a site http://idownvotedbecau.se/, but what is the official view of using this in comments? Although the text of the pages are well-written and carry an overall positive message, my first impression on seeing the URL was that it seemed a variation on a sarcastic (and banned) LMGTFY link, and there might be a negative rage-quit reaction from the OP. Indeed, the question where I first saw this (which was very VLQ) has been deleted, but I don't know by whom or why.

Maybe it would be better to not use the bare URL. Compare and contrast:

http://idownvotedbecau.se/noattempt/ - please try to make some effort to solve the problem before posting.

Versus:

Please try to make some effort to solve the problem before posting - refer to the link to see why this may not be well-received here.

It seems better to me the second way.

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    I thought comments explaining votes were a no-no.
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 5:41
  • 5
    @yivi: Looks like Will didn't get the memo on that one.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 5:42
  • 63
    @yivi it is not required to explain downvotes, nor is it forbidden to explain them...
    – rene
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 5:43
  • 4
    @rene More "discouraged" than "not required", maybe?
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 5:44
  • 11
    @yivi: Definitely discouraged. You can do so if you want but you do so at your own peril, really.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 5:45
  • 4
    @yivi No, I'm perfectly fine with my wording. but I don't read memo's of moderators.
    – rene
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 5:46
  • 60
    I don't much care for these comments. Everyone thinks they want to hear an explanation of why their question was downvoted, but they really don't. And certainly nobody wants to read multiple pages of text on why their question was downvoted. Generic comments like this don't really help anyone; they just lead to conflict. They don't violate our "Be Nice" policy or anything, but they aren't especially useful, either. A downvote alone sends the same message, without the possibility for backlash and subsequent unconstructive discussions.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 10:32
  • 67
    @CodyGray A downvote doesn't send the same message at all. It just sends the message "somebody thought there is something wrong" - but no indication of what is wrong. Newcomers need to have it carefully explained to them what is wrong (most of them regard SO as place they can come to have their problems solved). Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 13:23
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    It's not official at all, just a side project I hope can help people recognize why they are having a bad time on Stack Overflow (and other sites--it's not even SE-specific--it can be used with any reputation-based community) and how they can fix it. I'm going to go off now and sob quietly over @CodyGray's comment.
    – user1228
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 13:47
  • 3
    @CodyGray Were I to think of how often there is an actual conversation as opposed to someone sticking to their guns and attempting to argue away the downvotes with increasing intensity... It certainly feels like the latter occur more, though these cases may just take more time and attention. On the other hand, it's tough to gauge how many folks might have been more quietly helped.
    – bitnine
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 13:53
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    The question is, @bitnine, why are folks more likely to read an idownvotedbecau.se link in comments when they already ignored all the guidance we provided before they asked the question?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 13:56
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    For a set of askers, I'm sure there's a good chance that they'll skip over anything that they can't paste into their urgent project. But others might be more likely to read something that is presented in response to their particular question coming from a human being, rather than perceived pro-forma instructions. I also wouldn't be surprised if pre-asking instruction is less effective in general because of folks feeling they've got a burning question in their pocket.
    – bitnine
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 14:31
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    Imo, the only issue is The domain name. The domain name is 100% troll. What if someone do not downvote and want to use it? They fear downvote and may over react by those link. Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 14:52
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    @DragandDrop Proposed alternative domain name: onereasonyoumayhavebeendownvoted.is
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 20:40
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    improveyourquestion.by We can do this all day. I'm not sure it really solves the root problem...
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 1, 2017 at 6:42

9 Answers 9

69

What I like about idownvotedbecau.se

  • From the articles I've read so far, the advice seems helpful. People who take the time to read them will be in a much better place to ask productive questions. Very likely, comments with a idownvotedbecau.se link will be more useful in most cases than comments that don't include the link. In particular, it's a lot easier to answer "why the downvotes?" comments with a finely-honed article explaining the problem.

  • If articles do need to be improved, anyone can make a pull request on GitHub. If there are any articles missing, there's a well-considered contributor guide explaining the process. It's a great example of the community taking ownership of the site and how it operates.

  • It avoids the "enumerating badness" problem I had with the "What Stack Overflow is Not" question from of old.

  • It encourages people to follow through on downvoting rather than just leaving a comment.

  • If people are consistent about picking appropriate downvote reasons, we could end up with a corpus of categorized posts for training a machine learning algorithm or creating heuristics for just-in-time warnings.

  • It's something regular users can use to help improve question quality without waiting for us to design, develop, test and deploy other systems.

What I don't like

Just one thing, so no need for bullets: it seems a long shot that these links will help many people ask better questions. As I see it, the sequence for success is:

  1. A new user ignorantly asks a question that deserves a downvote and could be fixed with an edit.

  2. The user gets a downvote and a comment explaining the downvote.

  3. The user is chastened enough to look for ways to do better and is not discouraged.

  4. The user follows the link and reads the advice. This is new information for them.

  5. The user internalizes the advice and returns to edit their question.

  6. (Optional) The user remembers the advice and asks a better question next time.

Now for you and me, as experienced and invested Stack Overflow users, this doesn't seem farfetched. But remember a new user invariably has a broken mental model of how Q&A works. A common idea is that Stack Overflow resembles a forum where users discuss problems in a conversational manner. If we are to enlighten new users, we must infuse them with a useful mental model of the site before they give up or get angry. So the critical step is #3. We need them to understand that editing their question is the only way forward.

I tend to think downvotes alone do a good job of providing criticism without inciting arguments. However, explicitly tying a comment to a downvote tends to reinforce that it was a person and not the system that was critical of the post. Comments sidetrack people into unproductive conversations such as whether their code is really an MCVE or how much effort they put in before asking. In other words, commenting feeds the idea that Stack Overflow is a discussion forum (with unfriendly rules).

I know this is a data-free argument, but it is possible to analyse the actual results of these comments. For extant idownvotedbecau.se comments on Stack Overflow, see this SEDE query. (Note that the query is cached for the moment, but it will be very slow after the cache expires. A like query on millions of rows is not recommended.) For a snapshot that includes deleted comments, see this gist. I've spot-checked some of these comments. I haven't found any that caused arguments in comments, but neither have I found any that prompted an edit. I'm happy to let the data change my mind if anyone wants to look in greater detail.

A few suggestions

In no particular order:

  • Bare links (http://idownvotedbecau.se/nomcve/) come off as cold and unhelpful. Very much reminds me of https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque. Taking a minute to fill out a personalized comment seems more productive.

  • If you can edit rather than commenting (or downvoting) that's much more effective. The most common case is when people add necessary details as comments. It's better to show than tell if your goal is teaching.

  • When someone asks "why all the downvotes?", a link to a full explanation seems reasonable. But it doesn't seem so reasonable to include the same sort of comment every time you downvote a question. I don't see people doing this, but it would be disappointing if we started to see downvotes accompanied by a reason as a matter of course.

  • We'd like to get at the problem earlier in the process. For instance, the DAG team has considered changes to the ask page that might help. The mentoring experiment targets askers even earlier by letting a mentor help with their drafts in chat. I'm very excited to see the results of that project. I could see a use for a slightly different set of articles that explain "why I might downvote". (Don't start working on those just yet, however!)

In summary, there's a lot I like about idownvotedbecau.se and I don't see any reason to discourage its use. But I also hope it will remain a niche tool for simplifying the process of explaining downvotes when the author asks in comments. (And, in case it's not obvious, other people on the Community team might have different opinions than mine.)

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    Note about the SEDE query you're using: idownvotedbecau.se was registered a few months ago. You can get the exact day from GitHub. Adding a WHERE creationdate > ... before the LIKE might speed things up. Commented Sep 1, 2017 at 22:42
  • 1
    @AndrewMyers: Good call. Done.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Sep 1, 2017 at 22:57
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    I disagree with "I tend to think downvotes alone do a good job": since I do put effort into my posts, when they are downvoted, I'm utterly dumbfounded what I am doing wrong. Commented Sep 2, 2017 at 0:15
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    @ivan_pozdeev: I often have the same experience too. But you left off an important proviso: "without inciting arguments".
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Sep 2, 2017 at 21:01
  • I agree that OP will take time and read will probably not happen often, but still it will give them another chance to understand SO, link left on relevant post in good faith to OP with good faith is constructive in other cases it's probably just useless. People that get angry on that comment were probably already angry because SO has "dislike" Commented Sep 3, 2017 at 18:52
  • @PetterFriberg: I don't think that's a safe assumption. Or maybe more accurately, Stack Overflow has a reputation as being mean and it doesn't take much to confirm that reputation. It's not an unfair reputation, but it does make avoiding pointless arguments in comments that much harder. Better to just let folks work out the reasons for downvotes than just handing over the "solution". At least let folks ask about downvotes first.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 19:04
  • I agree with the reputation of SO, but I often have a feeling it's because of down votes (hence they feel that the down vote is mean, arriving from Facebook or similar), then yeah they take out the anger on anyone who comments to explain what is wrong but it is not actually the comment in itself that triggers the rage (I'm not considering obvious rude comments). Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 19:13
  • Have a look at this comment that I left in related post. Commented Oct 15, 2017 at 12:40
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    I delete these comments when flagged, because a) they greatly diminish their effectiveness by combining an admission of downvoting with the feedback. Give just the feedback, don't say how you voted, and chances are the OP will receive the feedback in a much more positive light. And more importantly, b) because by giving a short link to a remote site, the comments are outright dismissive and lack respect.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Dec 6, 2017 at 11:02
  • 4
    "it would be disappointing if we started to see downvotes accompanied by a reason as a matter of course." Isn't that explicitly recommended to low-rep users by a hover-tip? Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 14:14
  • 1
    @Pureferret: As always, everything in moderation. Sometimes there's already a comment that explains the downvote. Other times, it's fairly obvious a comment won't get through to the poster anyway. And then there are times when you just don't want to deal with all the drama that comes with commenting on a downvote. If you are new to downvoting, you might need to know that comments are often helpful too. Once you understand the system, we leave the choice to comment entirely up to the downvoter.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Jan 8, 2018 at 18:34
  • @MartijnPieters stats, please. In my experience, if you levy any criticism in comments after the OP received a downvote, they'll assume it was you anyway. I've gotten in the habit of outright lying, e.g.: "I didn't downvote but I'd suspect it has to do with [XYZ]."
    – canon
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:24
  • @canon: since voting is anonymous, I can't give you stats. However, do see the FAQ on why commenting when downvoting is never going to be mandatory, where you can see that it's not just my experience.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Aug 25, 2018 at 8:07
  • @canon: Yes, sometimes users target those that commented, conflating those with voters. I never state that I voted (either way), give just the feedback, and when someone does seem to confuse commenting with voting, I simply state that voting is anonymous and not that you shouldn't draw conclusions about two separate features being related. I'm not sure why you call on me for stats here however. You don't seem to want me to stop removing these comments, for example, since you yourself are now even lying about your voting behaviour in comments.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Aug 25, 2018 at 8:09
  • The points "commenting feeds the idea that Stack Overflow is a discussion forum" and "Taking a minute to fill out a personalized comment seems more productive." both sound reasonable to me, but they also seem to be in conflict with each other. Commented Nov 4, 2022 at 5:59
48

I have dedicated a lot of time to hunt and nuke offensive comment but I can't see how a link to that site considering its excellent content is against our be nice policy.

there might be a negative rage-quit reaction from the OP.

Then so be it! Users need to be free to explain what is wrong with a post if they like to.

My only consideration is leave comments in good faith and if OP react negatively do not pile on instead disengage and move on.

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    Excellent or not, a bare url doesn't seem to be an invitation for a conversation which should be the intent when we leave a comment in the first place.
    – rene
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 6:52
  • @rene it all comes down to if the comment is flaggable or not, hence is it againts our be-nice policy. I would say no, is it useful to leave this kind of comment? I tend only to explain if OP in good faith is trying to understand why the post is not well received Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 7:00
  • but I will not enforce my comment policy on other users as long as they respect the be-nice policy and content is relevant and constructive Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 7:24
  • 1
    Too me It's more likely that people rage quit because of massive amount of dv "dislike" then a comment explaining why. Time to fix the problem at it's root? More, better (forced) guidance when asking a question first time? Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 7:52
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    @PetterFriberg "it all comes down to if the comment is flaggable or not, hence is it againts our be-nice policy" - It can fit with the be nice policy but still be "no longer needed". Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 16:55
  • @AndrewMyers to me: to be "no longer needed" the comment needs to be not relevant (incorrect or post have been edited). My last consideration is if you comment on down voted post, OP will in most cases presume that it was you who down-voted, hence stating this is or not does not really do any significant difference. The "I down voted text" actually does not make much difference, you need only to consider if the comment is constructive (helps to understand how to improve post) or not. Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 22:01
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    Maybe, Will should change domain imnotthedownvoterb.ut as suggested by Andrew T. Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 22:07
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The site is effectively a crutch for not having respective info here in the help system - or an opportunity to compose it with community effort.

It's pretty obvious that links to the help system are good and encouraged to explain what is wrong with the post without wasting more time than necessary.

So, if you don't like the site's name that implies its stance, the above makes pretty obvious what course to take to fix that.

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    Agreed. Relying on an external resource for how to on SO seems very counter intuitive. Commented Jan 4, 2018 at 19:50
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My gut tells me that the second way may be a gentler way to use it, but don't be surprised if comments like that are deleted.

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    Oh come on. It's not like Will aims to be blunt. Oh, wait...
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 18:25
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    Let's hope they're deleted because they were effective and OP fixed their issues, making the link obsolete.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Sep 1, 2017 at 2:07
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    @AaronHall: C'mon, we both know why they'd normally be deleted...they're not the nicest of comments and they're not always the most constructive of comments, either.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 1, 2017 at 3:24
14

The site contents is excellent, no doubt, the reasons are pretty exhaustive and all. Looks like a typical SO day facepalming while reading noob questions.

My only concern is that it doesn't belong to the Stack Exchange network

  • so what if the site goes down? (well it's just in comments, for immediate use)
  • the name is really bad. Reminds me of this excellent (but not serious at all) http://cyclim.se/ about a TV movie making fun of Warner Bros films by dubbing & editing them in a new crazy movie). New users may hesitate before clicking on the link. It clearly conflicts with the "be nice" policy. You want revenge downvotes without the user viewing the contents ? just link to this kind of lmgfy-kind-of-name site.

(That said, some sarcasm has to surface sometimes, but that is when the question is super-abusive)

If this was to become official (integrated in the tour, or online help), I'd would see an integration to the feedback system for questions (like "add special comment" or such) not linked to downvoting

There's no need to downvote to leave some negative comment, like there's no need to leave a comment to downvote.

As an update, now that I have moderation powers, I see a lot of comments containing this link and flagged as "unwelcoming" auto deleted: it means that the URL has now joined the ranks of lmgfy and others and is considered as abusive. Too bad as the text inside was well crafted.

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    I share your concern. I think SE (or SO) should provide that content in a structured fashion, so commenters can link to an on-site resource.
    – GolezTrol
    Commented Sep 2, 2017 at 18:24
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    Re your edit: The lesson to learn is that any attempt to educate the OP is automatically "unwelcoming". The OP doesn't want to be educated, they just want to be spoon-fed.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Jun 17, 2019 at 21:17
  • 2
    @Mysticial the name of the site has something to do with it. It has "downvote" in it. Commented Jun 17, 2019 at 21:19
11

Do leave comments.

Downvotes without leaving a comment, especially when the downvote reason isn't terribly obvious, will be quickly counter-upvoted by other users, leaving the asker or answerer with a net positive reputation change. This won't help towards a question or answer ban, and it won't teach them anything.

Do not leave boilerplate comments.

I don't know why multiple sources are advocating for boilerplate comments. Reviewers do it, some users even wrote apps that post them and created GitHub repos to host them, but I loathe them. Nothing more annoying than boilerplate comments that ever so slightly don't actually apply to the post in question.

Customize comments.

Tailor your comment to the post in question, or don't bother leaving a comment at all. In this case, I'm all for a comment like this:

Please show that you debugged this code yourself. With this code, your X will do Y in scenario Z, what do you want to happen instead in that case?

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    that sounds unpopular, +1 Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 13:58
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    I disagree with your first assertion. I've only maybe seen that happen a handful of times, whereas subsequent downvotes on content that is truly downvote-worthy usually persist.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 19:08
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    It's a good idea to customize comments, certainly, but I've found that starting with boilerplate and customizing that is by far the most efficient way to do things. Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 19:21
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    I don't think we should discourage boilerplate comments because some people wrongly apply them. The solution is to use boilerplate comments where it is appropriate. The ratio of LQ questions to people willing to teach better ways of posting is too high already, without requiring helpers to jump through more hoops.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 31, 2017 at 19:54
  • @CodeCaster Comments frequently don't actually solve that problem, as even with a comment bad posts that are bad in ways that aren't immediately obvious to an uneducated reader are still likely to get pity upvotes. Better is just to avoid downvoting such posts unless they have a positive score.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 5, 2017 at 16:08
  • 2
    okay but ... what have you tried ? Commented May 25, 2018 at 14:02
  • Because boilerplate comments are often directly relevant to the downvote reason(s). There are several types of over-and-over again bad questions; they all need the same information. Commented Feb 25, 2020 at 18:27
-3

I'm ambivalent. There are pros and cons.

We are encouraged to leave comments explaining the problems. This is one way of doing it. Furthermore, it is a very quick way of doing it. Of course it would be better with a custom elaborate explanation, but using idownvotedbecau.se is better than nothing. Or at least it explains more than no comment.

Another aspect is this. All of the reasons listed does in some way say that it is rude to waste other peoples time with stuff you could have done on your own. This may sound a bit harsh, but if OP does not bother to spend the time to ask a proper question, why should I bother to spend the time on an elaborate comment? And yes I know it sounds harsh, and I'm not 100% sure of the answer, but I do think it is a relevant aspect.

One good thing would be if idownvotedbecau.se had a button next to each link, and when you press it, it copies a string to clipboard. Something like this "http:⁄⁄idownvotedbecau.se⁄imageofcode - Please do not post code as images. It is non-searchable and harder to read."

Maybe it would be better if the site changed URL to something slightly less offensive? On the other hand, the way it is now it makes the connection between the downvote and the reason 100% clear. There is however another reason I think the name is bad. That is that it implies that I downvoted, but what if I didn't?

Personally, I do not use it sarcastically like I've done with lmgtfy. I use it as a very quick method of explaining why I downvoted and what OP should do different next time.

-4

One way to think of the politeness of using idownvotedbecau.se is to imagine a similar action in another situation.

  • The police show up at your door and drag you away. When you ask why, they hand you a piece of paper saying youaregoingtojailbecau.se/forgery.
  • You call the local municipal transit company to find out why there was no 5:30 bus to East Maplesdale Mews today. They email you a form letter saying wedidntpickyouupbecau.se/unrecognizedorinvalidbusroute.
  • You take the final exam of a course and turn it in. The instructor looks at it and returns it to you with iflunkedyoubecau.se/illiterate written on the top in red ink.

Are these polite things to do?

What might be better? Perhaps, these people ought to explain the situation and be available for questions.

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    I really like this analogy. It makes it clear that there are cases when this is a perfectly fine tool to use. The bus company using that form letter makes perfect sense to me and would feel perfectly reasonable; the teacher or the police... not so much, IMO.
    – hairboat Staff
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 16:00
  • 9
    I sure would rather get youaregoingtojailbecau.se/forgery that just put to jail without exlpanation Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 17:07
  • 1
    Sorry, but I don't find any of these analogies particularly outrageous. And commenters are available for questions.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 17:24
  • @Ander perhaps, but it would be better to learn more details - who accused me, when the alleged incident happened, what physical evidence they have, how I can post bail, which court I will be tried in, where I can get access to a phone to call my lawyer, etc. Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 17:26
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    I'm really on the fence about these links myself, but "how can I post bail/where can I get a phone to call my lawyer" is definitely included in the pamphlet.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 17:31
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    @RobertColumbia What about the case when you punched a police officer in the face and they immediately give you a youaregoingtojailbecau.se/punchanofficer (Idownvotedbecause/imagesofcode)? There are so many occasions where all that information is not really needed. Plus we are in SO. If I see a bad question without a MCVE, I'll downvote, and then, perhaps, and only perhaps, I'll comment about not having an MCVE. Depends if my patience quota is past for the day. This is how SO works. In this case, it is better I leave without explanation? even if its a link? Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 17:31
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    @Ander, punching an officer is nothing like posting an image of code. A better analogy would be using an out-of-date tax form or forgetting to renew your handgun carry permit. Illegal, perhaps, but not in-your-face violent, and perhaps you could even be reasoned with (please use the new tax form next time, please pay a $100 fine and renew your handgun permit before carrying in public again kthxbai). Someone who just up and punches an officer probably can't be reasoned with, and just needs to be "dealt with" as soon as possible. Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 17:42
  • 3
    @RobertColumbia there is nothing outright violent in stackoverflow relating to these links (we are not discussing mod flags). There are offences that you dont need an explanation for, which is what I meant. Anyway, this miscommunication only enhances the fact that your examples are just false analogies. Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 17:45
  • 9
    "What might be better? Perhaps, these people ought to explain the situation" Yes, that would definitely be better, but it's not feasible. If we take away the ability to link to something that's 90% relevant information, you get a lot more people being left in the dark with no information because I simply don't have time to produce 100% relevant information on every question I downvote, delete, close, or otherwise. A lot of bad questions are bad for the same reason; we may as well take advantage of that. The "be available for questions" thing is false; we're pingable anyway, link or not.
    – Undo Mod
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 18:04
  • 13
    The effort dichotomy here is huge; we're expected to put a large amount of effort into feedback where the posters exhibited little to none. 1) That doesn't scale, and 2) Should be done by the system.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 18:32
  • 8
    The first is a horrible analogy, because a piece of paper with a URL is nothing like an actual link that, when clicked, shows a polite and complete explanation of the transgression and steps to mitigate (all without "going to jail"). Also, in many jurisdictions in the United States, police can detain you without telling you why. The second is more information than I've ever received from a transit company. The final one is hyperbole because no one is "flunking"; they are simply getting -1 magical internet point. Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 18:38
  • I'd rather said comments simply not exist. No explanation is necessary or warranted.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 19:51
-14

The point of using something like this has multiple tines, kind of like a fork:

  • It saves you from having to keep typing the same information again and again
  • The linked information is maintained and curated over time, and it has a neutral-to-positive tone. Many of the links lead to something actionable a person can do.
  • It's a better feedback loop than a downvote alone. We don't want people to feel bad, we want them to help us help them. This is all about being helpful.

Thing is, I'm seeing this increasingly used like a fork as in something people are being poked with. Multiple back-to-back links with no other context, links offered in a manner that's way less than what I'd consider polite, or even close to the spirit of being helpful, and we're seeing multiple instances of these links worded differently in multiple comments under the same post.

That's not helpful, that's not kind, that's certainly not compassionate and that has to stop.

We don't want to take these links away from people that are using them respectfully, as intended. But don't think you can use these to couch condescension in an attempt to prick someone for not meeting your vision of an ideal question, either.

Condescension disguised as an attempt at being helpful is the worst kind of example we want to set for our community because it's just downright mean and that's not okay. So I really encourage folks to examine their intent when using these, and to take care to try and teach using the tool instead of hitting someone over the head with it.

If I want to learn what a compound word is, hitting me over the head with a dictionary isn't going to be very helpful, so let's please not create that perception.

If you're caught using these links pejoratively in an attempt to couch an outright insult in a manner where you think you can hide behind "just trying to help", you're very likely going to be suspended. A great example is just pasting the link, or using link text to make fun of someone, even subtly. And if you see that other people have already posted the link, think hard before deciding if it's worth commenting the same thing again?

I'm not going to let the actions of a few take something that most people are using responsibly away from everyone, but that group is growing, and it has to stop.

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    Call me stupid but one example of how I should not use those links will help me a lot. I think I got the meaning of all the words you've used, still not sure if I'm in the group that you're about to suspend.
    – rene
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:07
  • 25
    Wait, hold up. Just pasting the link itself is now verboten? That seems like a pretty massive overreach straight into bad faith.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:21
  • 26
    I'm kind of worried about this. I don't use any of those links so I should be okay but it seems like more and more SO is taking away resources that encourage the OP to help themselves and instead expect us to hand hold them. Could we get a couple examples on how not to word the comments so we can keep using them as there is a lot of good information there. Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:22
  • 7
    @fbueckert Cases of people just posting multiple links. No context at all, nothing. Just "here's why you suck" is how it comes across and that's .. not okay.
    – user50049
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:22
  • 7
    @fbueckert That's not what the answer says.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:23
  • 24
    @TimPost Just assuming malice and ill intent in comments that have neither is specifically violating the stated guidelines. Users are expected to assume good intentions of others. Just assuming someone is trying to be rude because they're not going into lengthy personalized explanations, rather than assuming something well intentioned, like that they didn't consider such an explanation worth their time, is specifically against the stated guidelines of how users are expected to behave here.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:25
  • 25
    I can see how that can be unfriendly, but...I'm not a fan of how heavy handed you seem to be going with this. The expectations for curators is getting heavier and heavier, without any accompanied tooling to help with the lifting. That's not okay.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:25
  • 5
    Tim, if you think that these links aren't useful, then by all means, express that view. I certainly don't think that they're helpful. But treating people posting information that they pretty clearly think is trying to be helpful, even if you disagree on whether or not it's actually helpful, as if they're being rude an malicious, is not appropriate at all.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:29
  • 14
    @TylerH According to Tim posting bare links is to be interpreted as someone saying other people suck, that it's rude, and that people will be suspended for doing it. That's literally what they say. If that's not the intention, then they need to be reworded significantly and explain that that's not the case. You just saying, "Tim didn't say that thing that I'm staring at him having said" isn't going to convince a lot of people.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:32
  • 13
    I see these links more as a symptom than a root cause; there's been so much complaining and pushback against downvotes without explanation that this site was made to help explain in a more generic way. So the root cause is that there's not enough explanation on SE for what downvotes are, or how they are used. I think the root cause should be fixed, and then these links will organically disappear, and this becomes a non-issue. Considering that the site's been in operation for at least 18 months, this seems more like a case of shooting the messenger than fixing the problem.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:38
  • 15
    @TimPost "Boy if only you had read 19 books on programming prior to even daring to create an account here, you'd know why you don't even understand what you're doing" And if you were saying you're suspending people for posting a comment like that, you wouldn't have any push back at all. The problem is (as far as I can tell) you aren't talking about comments like that. You're talking about comments saying radically different things that you're just interpreting, in bad faith, as meaning something like that quote. That is the problem.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:39
  • 9
    @TimPost Well your description of the situations aren't showing that. If you actually describe the parts of their behavior that were actually obviously malicious, other than just saying that they're posting uexplained links to a site (an action not clearly malicious) then, as I said, you probably wouldn't have much or any pushback at all. For example, if you said that someone posted the same link 100 times in comments to the same post, that's obviously malicious. You appear to be leaving out the part of the example that actually shows ill intent.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:52
  • 27
    @TimPost If you don't provide any information about the types of behaviors your actually considering malicious, then you have two problems. First, and most importantly what's the point of this point? If most people are doing it fine telling people not to do some thing you aren't telling us about isn't helping anyone not do what you don't want them to do. And second, we've seen so many examples recently of SO employees interpreting helpful behavior as malicious, I just don't trust your opinion of what's "obviously malicious" over situations you aren't even describing.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:57
  • 12
    This is one of those situations where trust would go an awful long way. That is, unfortunately, one coin that SE has spent heavily on the last year. I'm afraid there's not enough in the bank at this point for me to just take you at your word for it. I'm not a fan of the way @Servy is wording the disagreement, but I agree with the thrust of what he's saying. The long and short of it is, curators just aren't trusted anymore, and that's amply backed up by SE's actions. I don't know how to fix that, but I wish I did.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 16:05
  • 30
    So, if someone posts images of code. I will down-vote. I will 100% not take the time to explain to someone that is programming why images of code suck, and why I down-voted, because I already have done it a lot of times (before I found idownvotedbecause page). Are you saying that you prefer me to downvote and leave than post a link explaining why? Well, "prefer", I mean, you will ban me if I post it. Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 16:35

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