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I acknowledge the feedback shared by community members and by moderators. We felt that this experiment was important because it allowed users to participate and engage in a low-effort core action on the site. We believe a healthy community involves encouraging participation from new and existing users, among other aspects. We understand there are ways to engage with new users and to further de-risk the experiment other than how it is currently designed.

While the team previously worked to iterate on the experiment based on the feedback shared in our previous communications, we hear that enough risk remains, and at a sufficient level that many of you don't feel comfortable moving forward with. For that, we would like to apologize for the concern, stress, and tension caused by this experiment. I, and the team, hear the concerns about the lack of vote fraud tooling, the reliance on our community managers, and inefficiencies in processes, ultimately leading to a higher burden on curators & moderators.

In order to address these concerns, we'd like to work with moderators and other community members on evaluating alternative options for how to set new users up for success and how we can enhance the tooling to address concerns.

If we revisit changes to voting privileges, we will explore alternative ways in which we help more users participate and will first improve tooling for moderators.

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    Thank you for listening to feedback and stepping on the brakes!!
    – zcoop98
    Commented Apr 5 at 15:07
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    I think we should thank you for conveying our concerns correctly to those in charge so the company could re-assess the earlier decision and allowing those in charge to make a better decision.
    – rene
    Commented Apr 5 at 15:09
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    I think @SpencerG has been here too long for that last post to be an example of hazing gone too far, and I thought we weren't doing April Fools this year? But more importantly: thanks for rethinking this. I think it's apparent from our end that there was a lot of momentum behind this project and it had to have been so difficult to stop it. I'm sure that involved a lot of internal discussion and we won't ever be able to properly credit the people who spoke up loudest for the concerns of the community, but thanks to both those who made the case and those that heard them! Commented Apr 5 at 15:10
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    Wouw! This is the best Meta post I've seen in a while, actually feels like we're getting heard as a community. Thank you SpencerG and the rest of the team for listening and communicating your actions.
    – 0stone0
    Commented Apr 5 at 15:19
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    There have been many suggestions from the community and moderators on alternative ideas; many have received a lot of votes here or over on Meta Stack Exchange. If Stack Overflow still want to pursue something like this, why not create a post (ideally on Meta Stack Exchange) asking for constructive ideas for what could be implemented; we even have this useful voting mechanic which will show you what answers are welcomed by the community, while you (Stack Overflow) can acknowledge the feasibility and build time/requires in the comments of the answers to your question. Such a post also provides the community involvement promised.
    – Thom A
    Commented Apr 5 at 16:10
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    While I'm not privvy to any internal SO processes, I would wager a guess that convincing management not to push through with the experiment regardless of the overwhelmingly negative feedback (as was done with some past incentives) took quite some work from the CMs and other empoyees in the trenches. If that hunch is correct, thanks to everyone who helped stop this. Now, let's hope the experiment will not be re-introduced on SO until it was changed enough to meet with the approval of the mods and community at large.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Apr 5 at 16:38
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    To be frank but quite understated, the initial claim "Many of these changes are a result of your feedback." was head-turning. I struggled with writing an answer, and eventually abandoned the idea, because it seemed too difficult to avoid violating Code of Conduct while giving an accurate and detailed explanation of my takeaway. Commented Apr 5 at 17:51
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    ^100%. Before anything else, what Stack Overflow is, a repository of high-quality answers to questions, needs to be made clear to all existing and new users. And it also needs to be clear to most users what makes a good answer, and a lot of that depends on the language. For example, in C, "Oh hey, man, I got rid of the compiler error by casting the function pointer." is really easy, looks like it works at the start, but is a horrible <expletive deleted>ing idea that probably won't blow up quickly enough for anyone applying the answer to notice in time to revert the upvote. Commented Apr 5 at 18:58
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    Lowering the voting threshold is akin to increasing the signal by 3dB while increasing noise by 10dB, resulting in a net improvement of -7dB. Commented Apr 6 at 4:57
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    @user4581301 " Before anything else, what Stack Overflow is, a repository of high-quality answers to questions, needs to be made clear to all existing and new users." Apparently it still needs to be made clear to the staff/executive, see my comment before this one.
    – philipxy
    Commented Apr 6 at 6:41
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    @NoDataDumpNoContribution The threats to quit were made the same day as the internal announcement. If that worked, it should've worked around 4 weeks ago Commented Apr 6 at 21:26
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    @Cœur It was locked by a mod, not by staff. It was also not on a suggestion or instruction from staff Commented Apr 7 at 20:11
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    @Cœur the wound is quite well salted. Sometimes there's a little too much of a good thing. I think there's a human tendancy to pile onto things like this, and now that they're re-examining their decisions, it might do well to reduce the negative reinforcement, and positively reinforce good decisions. Commented Apr 8 at 2:27
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    Well in this case not keeping at beating a dead horse when they're wrong, this can be neutral, but its not bad in its own. It simply is a learning opportunity. The shoe, as is one might say, is chewed on quite enough. There might be other shoes but here the poor decision has been averted, perhaps temporarily. I think the negative reinforcement has done its work? There's probably other things that needs the active community's attention that needs fixing Commented Apr 8 at 9:06
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    If quantity won over quality, Yahoo Answers might be the top Q&A site. Q&A is about finding answers when you need them. And voting dosen't grease the wheels of the new user experience. It eventually might funnel them into being an active users but there's a few steps in between. Commented Apr 18 at 14:27

10 Answers 10

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Thank you so much!

However, I am a bit disappointed that it has been paused only after the general disagreement from the community on Meta, and not after all the moderators told you how terrible of an idea this is.

In terms of what you can focus on to improve user retention and participation let me give you a hint. Stack Overflow's main selling point is quality, not quantity. I have always admired how easy it is to find a good solution to my programming problem. But more and more users are sharing their disagreement that Stack Overflow is being flooded with too much poor quality content. Please focus on on-boarding help for new users so that they can understand what is required of them before they post anything, and please invest some resources into automatic quality checks. Even imperfect solutions will be seen as a step in the right direction. You can start by releasing the long-awaited Staging Ground.

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    I totally agree, I cannot fathom why SO wouldn't want to listen to the moderators in the first place.
    – Cow
    Commented Apr 5 at 17:06
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    "only after the general disagreement from the community on Meta, and not after all the moderators told you how terrible of an idea this is." - not just that, but all the obvious reasons to expect general disagreement from the community based on several previous rounds of feedback on related topics. Or, you know, the "general disagreement from the community on Meta" that they already got network-wide, 6-8 months ago.Twice, even. Commented Apr 5 at 17:59
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    "has been paused only after the general disagreement from the community on Meta, and not after all the moderators told you" Meanwhile they think they want a moderator council/whatever elected to consolidate/distill "community" preferences (network wide, yet).
    – philipxy
    Commented Apr 6 at 6:46
  • While I agree with your point about "quality over quantity", I think that the general sentiment on social media seems to be that Stack Overflow is too harsh to new users and that its very difficult to receive help for an issue. The issue is Stack Overflow should make it clear what it is and what it isn't to new users. Thats is, a collection of high quality unique questions and answers, rather than a general help forum for programming. Commented May 1 at 9:57
158

It's unclear to me (and to many others, it seems) what you actually want from SO—and SE. What are the goals of this or any other change?

Activity as a KPI

Higher activity numbers can be valuable, particularly if the company is resting on the laurels of that number as a KPI—but I'm going to sincerely question what KPIs you're going after and why. Is activity a primary KPI—and if so, why?

SO has always been marketed as a place that's at a nexus point between Wikipedia and traditional forums (or Reddit, now). Philippe is uniquely placed to understand how KPIs differ between those two platforms, so what is the goal for SO and what KPIs are you considering from each of the two and why?

Chasing activity numbers is important on sites that are highly needing activity as the primary value add. Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, etc... but, while I'm guessing Wikipedia does look at activity, I don't think it's as important as quality and completeness of the content. For most people, Wikipedia is a static resource they consume; only so many people are going to be active.

Now, activity on SO is still more important than it is on Wikipedia because people ask questions here every day so it's necessary to have experts and curators who can review the new questions and either answer them or point the asker at an existing question that solves their problem.

Both of these are things that need significant focus. The percentage of new questions that get closed on SO is highly concerning. That's frustrating to both the askers and the curators/answerers—now, you've been working on search and improving the question asking workflow, which is good, provided the goal is preventing questions that shouldn't be asked in the first place (low-quality duplicates, off topic) while ensuring novel questions are complete enough to be answered. Bonus points if off topic questions are pointed to SE sites where they do fit.

Voting as the key activity metric

Voting is absolutely the simplest entry point for any user on the Internet, so it's understandably tempting to start there. Whether you call it voting, liking, starring—whatever—people understand it. This is a simplification because, as SE users will remind you, voting here means something more than just "I like this". Voting is the core way of indicating quality of content on the site, but it's also the way we reward users for that content—i.e. reputation—or prevent them from creating more—a.k.a. question bans.

Right now, voting is the bottom floor of a house of cards and a lot of the concerns you're hearing from users stem from fears of bringing down the entire structure. I'd argue that you'd be better served to address the upper levels before touching voting.

Everything builds upon voting. Having content upvoted gets you reputation, which gets you privileges and access, not only on the site you're using, but on the entire network. This means there's tons of incentive to cheat. The converse is also true. Having content downvoted can cause you to lose privileges and access, along with allowing your content to be deleted. Those bans being practically permanent also leads to people wanting to cheat.

This is the crux of things. Voting is too tangled up in all of this to be opened up now.

  • Privileges and access (at least some of them) need to be awarded based on merit and need rather than by reputation.
  • Methods for content and user moderation that don't rely on post score alone (or at all) should be investigated.
  • Content quality indications (positive and negative) must exist, but they should be clearly defined and meaningful.
    • Effort should be made to investigate how quality indicators can be separated from "I like this" or "I support you" responses.
  • Understand reasons for socking and make it less attractive while also ensuring it's more easily found and managed.
    • For example, if people are socking to earn the privilege of commenting, give them reputation-free ways to earn the privilege that ensure initial comments are being used appropriately.

Once you've done these things, you've likely addressed most of the upper layers of the card stack and you can safely change this privilege, too—or you may no longer need to.

It's easy enough to say you need to chase activity numbers because people are leaving SO in favor of AI bots which, despite their issues, are nicer or people can get answers faster. But the issues with reduction in site activity far predate AI, so looking to boost activity can not address what I consider the deeper core issue on Stack Overflow—issues with content discoverability and quality on an aging platform.

Content Quality as a KPI

When it comes to content quality, the elephant in the room is that there's so much content, it'd be practically impossible to determine whether it's useful or not. Much of the content is rarely or never accessed and, after 15 years, there's not as many people around to review and ensure the content is still good.

Step 1—Take out the trash.

SO has 24 million questions, based on the all sites page—that's a lot. How can we ensure those 24 million questions are all actually useful and not clogging up search results?

There's at least 1 million zero-score questions that have no answers but haven't been roombaed because they have 2 or more comments. That's nearly 5% of the site's content. No one is going to use or review those. Just delete them. These questions could be confusing people, making the site look like a ghost town. Shog, Robert and I wrote a document about this in 2019, including plans for how to ensure there weren't any diamonds in the trash, but I am doubtful there's much there worth saving.

Step 2—Review and reward curation of old content

The first part here is a continuation of Step 1—so much of the existing content is truly repetitive. So, further reduce the 24 million by finding ways make it easier to identify and address duplicate content.

This might actually be a great opportunity to use AI... (correct me if that's wrong). Start a project looking through existing questions/answers to find potential duplicates and put them in a queue for review. Then let reviewers recommend closing, merging, or deleting those questions. Yes, I said merging. Stop limiting merges to moderators and give well-trained curators access to merges.

Also have a queue for ambiguously-scored content >1 year old that was previously nominated for closure, but aged out and that hasn't been caught up by roomba for some reason. Close/delete/merge as appropriate.

Once we've reduced the overall question count, we need to start working on actual curation. There have been efforts in the past to address issues of outdated content, which lead to the "Trending" sort and investigations into answer labelling that would allow the community to classify answers by the version of software it relates to, among other things. The Teams Team also spends a lot of time investigating content curation and freshness for Teams—which are only 6 years old. Imagine the backlog on SO after 15 years!

Unfortunately, very little has come of this work due to the complexity and changing priorities. How can we draw attention to older content to ensure it's good and reward users for updating or adding more up-to-date solutions?

We also need to understand how trustworthy current indications of answer quality are. These indicators need to be cognizant of time passing and technology changing so we can ensure search results are going to actually point people at solutions that work.

Some random thoughts on content quality and "the way we do things here":

  • How can we encourage and simplify review of older questions with 10+ answers to ensure that all of the answers are unique and useful?
    • At some point, does it make sense to compile many answers into one summary answer or create a table of contents that help users identify which answer might be better-suited to their needs.
  • How can we ensure community consensus on what duplicate questions are and when to close?
  • Is it still good or useful to retain "wrong" answers. For a platform so focused on reducing noise, retaining the wrong stuff seems confusing to me.

Rewarding activity here is core—both the curators and the original content creators need recognition and reward. Should that reward be reputation? I don't know—what else could it be? If reputation doesn't give privileges, does it matter? Maybe there are other rewards people would be incentivised by.


In addition to the above, if you're looking for stuff to focus on, I'd offer a few suggestions:

  • Look at all of the privileges and find ones with barriers that prevent users from stepping into curation because they don't want to post questions and answers. Particularly ones that already have some checks-and-balances in place. Hints:
    • The suggested edits queue is huge, so clearly people want to suggest edits. Some of them are actually good at it. Consider granting full edit privileges based on a quantity of successful suggested edits, such as 20 suggestions, of which 80% are accepted or improved.
    • The close queue is overburdened, with around half of reviews aging out (as of last check). Find ways to identify people who are good at identifying close-worthy questions and give them full access to close reviewing. See also Should trusted close/reopen voters and reviewers have their votes weighted more than others'?.
  • Education is so important. I know Philippe wants better onboarding. Work on that.
    • E.g. Don't just give people access to votes (with no apparent training). When there's clearer onboarding, there's potentially less risk for abuse. People clearly don't understand how SO is intended to work. While that's never going to be perfect, do better—teach them how SO is different than Reddit and other forums.
    • Create a primer to voting and let people take it and give them some votes.
    • Change the voting button text—make it customizable per-site.
    • Update the close reason copy—please! This project was 90% of the way. Just get something better there for voters, post owners and visitors so that the close reasons and notices are informative and clear.

I don't have a newsletter, but I hope y'all find this helpful.

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    "If reputation doesn't give privileges, does it matter" - of course! it's social clout, and that motivates people, and can give a degree of support to how much you can trust what that person writes in an answer in a related tag (people have suggested somehow showing rep in user card based on tag rep rather than total rep).
    – starball
    Commented Apr 5 at 21:39
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    I absolutely love the energy of this answer. Ambitious projects can be awesome – but they have to be targeted correctly. The "ambitious goal" of the original proposal was to... vote more. Woo. Yes, curation is positive & crucial & without votes SE wouldn't exist, but is that really a good entry point when we have a backlog of millions of questions? Why not take a crack at that, or something equally as material/ tangible first? I would be so excited to see the power of a big project that the community actually believed in and felt comfortable getting behind. It'd be refreshing, frankly.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Apr 5 at 22:14
  • 3
    Theres over 2 million posts, that are over 3 months old, have 0 score or less, and less than 10 views per year. Commented Apr 6 at 0:22
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    This is one of those times I just want an "applause" reaction. Very nice rundown!
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 6 at 3:47
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    As someone else wrote, this is really a breath of fresh air in times we really need it. Thanks, and really sorry that they let you go instead of doing the opposite. Commented Apr 6 at 5:49
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    I've explained too many times to several curators that those 0 score questions that haven't roombaed aren't a real problem and often they're the only post on niche tags addressing open problems that haven't been solved yet - anywhere. You'd basically be deleting all the Wisdom of the Ancients and there'd be no more DenverCoder9 :P
    – bad_coder
    Commented Apr 6 at 10:17
  • 2
    @bad_coder lets say I'm someone with the same problem - if I ask the question myself, and someone who knows enough to walk me through the problem is around, or better yet happens to find the question and posts an answer, it feels better to me than having an old unanswered question which people come across without an answer. Commented Apr 6 at 11:29
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    Merging is hard because clear duplicates are rarely exact enough despite being clear. Commented Apr 6 at 17:08
  • 7
    Some very valuable content is effectively deleted because the search engines refuse to surface it (for whatever reason). That is especially true for the questions and answers from 2008 and 2009. Much of that content is not outdated. Search engine results are often low-quality questions and answers from 2015 (+/- 5 years). Try to search for some very basic beginner-level concepts/problems that must have been asked in the first few weeks or months of Stack Overflow's existence. Commented Apr 6 at 19:29
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    I don't know, but if people are found socking - exhibiting Dishonesty, then they need to be permanently banned - Period. Quality and Integrity are what makes SO/SE stand out among the rest. I'm all for making that practice easier to discover and police. 6-figure rep takes significantly more time than reflected in some accounts. Commented Apr 7 at 1:40
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    @DavidC.Rankin I mean... that's a way of thinking about it... but it isn't always so simple. Many people who sock don't realize it's not allowed. And, to be clear, having socks is fine... it's what people do with them that becomes an issue. SO has always focused on moderation that allows for mistakes and correcting behavior. Very little, including socking inappropriately, will lead to permanent bans. It's just not how we do things here.
    – Catija
    Commented Apr 7 at 7:03
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    I unironically was going to post "SE needs to hire whoever wrote this" before I saw the author... Commented Apr 7 at 23:43
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    No surprise at all that I agree completely with everything in this post. It's almost like we discussed this ad nauseum in attempts to get the ball rolling on each and every one of these things in the past... it's a damn shame we have the company focused on things like AI instead.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 11 at 21:19
  • 2
    "Shog, Robert and I wrote a document about this in 2019" hey, I also did write about it.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 24 at 15:31
89

Cool!

Now that that's out of the way, let's consider what's actually useful here: wringing more signal out of the folks who read questions and answers and rely on the information contained within them. As we continue to watch the quality of information readily available on the 'Net spiral down towards the flaming dung-heap of generated blog-spam, the utility of curated and ranked information such as that on SO becomes ever more important... Even as the volume of readers and especially voting readers diminishes. Garnering as much signal on what is useful as possible has never been more important - for the benefit of the folks still reading, and the folks still writing.

The system that already exists to collect vote information from low- and no-reputation users is better than nothing, but not by a lot; there's very little that encourages folks to use it, and the data generated requires going well out of one's way to find. And that's not even getting into the effort required to eliminate garbage data, which is difficult even for folks like yourself with full access to it.

So maybe start with that: look for ways to make "voting" more enticing for low- and no-rep folks using the system that already exists, see if you can drive up the volume. Then see what it'll take to extract meaningful signal from that data.

Once you've done all that, then you'll be well prepared to revisit this proposal, with hard data on what we can expect for results. I think most folks here would welcome access to more high-quality data on post usefulness, after all - the trick is getting that increase in volume without torching the quality of the data.

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Instead of on SO (whose community never volunteered for the 1 reputation voting experiment), why not implement it on the sites that actually volunteered for it?

Arqade, Graphic Design SE, and Pets SE have volunteered for the experiment.

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    As a Pets.SE mod. and the one who volunteered our site after discussion I'd want to re-examine whether we would want to go ahead at this point. Commented Apr 8 at 3:37
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    As an Arqade user, agreed. I think 1-rep voting would be a better fit on Arqade than SO. It typically takes more expert knowledge to identify the usefulness of a programming related post vs the average post on Arqade that can be identified by the average player of a given game.
    – Stevoisiak
    Commented Apr 10 at 19:29
  • @Stevoisiak Though, surely we want to run the experiment on a site where it's less likely to work, if the eventual plan is to do this network-wide? (Unless we're planning to have different approaches for different sites.)
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Apr 24 at 12:05
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    @wizzwizz4 I say start on a site where it's most likely to work. If it's successful, you can start expanding to other sites. It gives you a chance to work out any potential issues.
    – Stevoisiak
    Commented Apr 24 at 16:59
15

I feel like an essential point here is both the lack of continuity in the project (not 'your' fault individually, but your fault collectively as an organisation), as well as the fact that someone (also not your fault - I suspect) saw fit to attempt to push this through, in exactly this form despite it being one of the causes of the strike, turning into a meme "the other shoe" and multiple rounds of opposition.

Despite the occasional shade thrown at the institution of community leadership in the comments and elsewhere - I think its very hard to dispute that moderators care for the health of their sites.

I think that also, the tendency for SE to let go random members of community and community adjacent staff to 'make up the numbers' during downsizing exercises is both disruptive to the running of the site as a whole, with the goodwill built up with the staff gone, and occasionally results in good initiatives (which this wasn't), and work towards mitigating bad initiatives (which IMO this is) being lost in the wind. This also probably results in a somewhat unhappy/stressful environment. I've been through one, and its painful. Continuity is important.

I appreciate the common sense shown here in putting the experiment on hold. While its potentially low effort, its also potentially high impact, and the moderator community feedback reflected this.

I'd also add, as someone who has a unhealthy level of meta experience, that messing with the 'core' mechanics of the network is rarely popular, and needs both a big here be dragons sign, and deep support from both the organisation for the staff involved and the community to succeed. I think we're a few years of getting everything mostly right from being able to make something like this work.

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    new strat to achieve "high impact": propose a strawman initiative, wait for the pitchforks, and then retract the proposal.
    – starball
    Commented Apr 8 at 0:25
  • 1
    Rather the 'effort' needed by the end user is small, and the effect it can have potentially be large. Commented Apr 8 at 2:25
9

While I don't think the 1-rep voting system is necessarily a good fit for Stack Overflow, I do think it could be a good fit for other sites. For example, one reason judging answers on SO is difficult is because of the expertise needed to tell whether a post is accurate or helpful.

The discussion on the gaming-focused Arqade last year about opting into the 1 reputation voting had a generally positive response. I think it would be worth trying there, especially as the community unfortunately has been shrinking over time. Questions there tend to be a bit more straightforward with a single easily verifiable answer for those that play the game a question is about.

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    The problem with allowing only a single site, is that either the association bonus would need to be disabled perpetually for that site, or it could be used as an entry point for bots/socks/other nefarious uses.
    – Erik A
    Commented Apr 14 at 11:37
5

This answer is to add to the excellent answer by Catija.

Content Quality as a KPI

The main currency on Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange is reputation, rather than badges. Feel free to continue the badges as is. But in parallel, also use reputation points as rewards for improving the content quality, since rep offers the most immediate reward.

Multiple psychology experiments have shown that to change the behavior, immediate rewards are a key component.

Badges are good rewards, but they are typically awarded more slowly than reputation points, by design. Thus, they are less appropriate than reputation points as psychological rewards for the behaviors we want to promote. And these behaviors are all about improving the quality of the site. For example:

  • Closing an old question as a duplicate of another old question, if this action passes some simple quality checks, should be rewarded with several reputation points. How many rep points? Find this using A/B experiments. Measure quality as the outcome.
  • Editing a highly upvoted, but poorly written question or answer - same as above.
  • Flagging "noise" comments as no longer needed - same as above.

This list can be continued with more examples, but you get the idea.

References:

People primarily pursue long-term goals, such as exercising, to receive delayed rewards (e.g., improved health). However, we find that the presence of immediate rewards is a stronger predictor of persistence in goal-related activities than the presence of delayed rewards. Specifically, immediate rewards (e.g., enjoyment) predicted current persistence at New Year's resolutions whereas delayed rewards did not (Study 1). Furthermore, immediate rewards predicted persistence in a single session of studying and exercising whereas delayed rewards did not, even though people report primarily pursuing these activities for delayed rewards (Studies 2 and 3). This is true for both short (1 week) and long (3 month) time frames (Study 4), and regardless of whether anticipated or materialized rewards are assessed (Study 5). Overall, whereas delayed rewards may motivate goal setting and the intentions to pursue long-term goals, a meta-analysis of our studies finds that immediate rewards are more strongly associated with actual persistence in a long-term goal.

Woolley K, Fishbach A. Immediate Rewards Predict Adherence to Long-Term Goals. Pers Soc Psychol Bull. 2017 Feb;43(2):151-162. doi: 10.1177/0146167216676480. PMID: 27899467.


Researchers have conducted many studies on the relationship between external rewards and intrinsic motivation. A recent study showed that, compared with delayed rewards, rewards delivered immediately after the experiment enhanced the participants’ intrinsic motivation. However, this study did not rule out the possibility of a misattribution effect of extrinsic motivation. The present research conducted three studies to explore whether immediate rewards actually enhance intrinsic motivation. To rule out the interference of the misattribution effect of extrinsic motivation, according to the different characteristics of extrinsic motivation and intrinsic motivation, Study 1 and Study 2 improved the prior experimental paradigm, and the results indicated that the intrinsic motivation of participants who received extra rewards immediately after completing experimental tasks was stronger than that of participants who received the delayed extra reward. Furthermore, to rule out the potential interference of temporal discounting, Study 3 introduced a new variable—reward magnitude. The results showed that the delivery time of the extra reward had an independent effect on intrinsic motivation and that the immediacy of the extra reward could enhance intrinsic motivation. In all, the three studies strongly demonstrated that immediate external extra rewards could truly enhance intrinsic motivation.

Liu Y, Yang Y, Bai X, Chen Y, Mo L. Do Immediate External Rewards Really Enhance Intrinsic Motivation? Front Psychol. 2022 May 16;13:853879. doi: 10.3389/fpsyg.2022.853879. PMID: 35651575; PMCID: PMC9150741.

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    Flagging "noise" comments as no longer needed - same as above. Wow. Some people are gonna get rich off of me. Commented Apr 10 at 20:48
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    @user4581301 I am flagging you, buddy! Gimme my +10 now. Commented Apr 10 at 21:04
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    The reward should be the trust the system is giving you in granting you access to increased ability, not number go up mechanics that are more akin to addiction rather than doing things for the good of the community. I don't disagree that the reward mechanics are lopsided on SO, but handing out rep for being a busy-body in reviews seems a bit weird to me. Surely we could just improve the way we are presenting these tools to users and unlock them gradually over time with progress bars based on actions rather than rep gain to get the same effect.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 10 at 21:37
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    all of which is actually a form of "better onboarding" to each of those features, as opposed to just handing them the tool and rewarding them for using it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 10 at 22:09
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    @KevinB Thank you for the comment! I am not sure I fully understand it though... Do you disagree with the results of studies that show that immediate rewards work better than non-immediate rewards? Could you please expand on your comment a little? TY! Commented Apr 10 at 23:20
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    No, I don’t disagree that your suggestion would increase engagement, I question the value that engagement will bring with that style of reward
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 10 at 23:23
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    @KevinB Why not question "the value that engagement will bring with" the standard reputation points for questions? What's good for questions and answers, that is, rep points, should be good for the curation efforts. Not sure why we need a two-track system. It's like paying real money to engineers, but another "kind" of money to janitors - and more rarely too! Commented Apr 11 at 0:01
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    Closing down an old question as a duplicate of another old question I can see as 10 points. Editing any post and getting it approved is currently 2 points up until you hit, I think, 2000 rep. After that, why pother? You're pretty much already well-engaged. Besides, you do not want to devolve edits something too close to what happened with Documentation. Flagging "noise" comments as no longer needed can't be worth much otherwise I guarantee you'll see noise-rep circles creating noise just so friends can remove it. Commented Apr 11 at 0:49
  • @TimurShtatland i mean, we've already seen time and time again that rep for questions/answers drive people to become toxic when denied access to it, or when abusing it through spamming answers to low quality questions. It's why there's interest in pulling some of the curation tooling away from rep alone and more to earning it through relevant actions.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Apr 11 at 5:12
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    @user4581301 Re: "After that, why pother? You're pretty much already well-engaged.": I would do the above curation tasks for as low as +1 point for easy tasks, and +10 points for the most complex tasks. Heck, I am even doing it for free often enough! And so do countless other users, including the silent curation heroes, who curate tens of thousands of posts, and whose names are known only to a few of us who pay attention. Commented Apr 11 at 11:11
  • @user4581301 Re: "Besides, you do not want to devolve edits something too close to what happened with Documentation.": I missed this story, but I would like to know more. Could you please expand on this point a little? If you have a link to meta posts, it would be helpful too. TYIA! Commented Apr 11 at 11:13
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    @user4581301 Re: "Flagging "noise" comments as no longer needed can't be worth much otherwise I guarantee you'll see noise-rep circles creating noise just so friends can remove it." This can be detected and punished algorithmically. This sin is similar to other group sins, e.g., voting circles, cliques, serial voting, etc. All of this is found by The Great AI Eye In The Sky that can see it all, and that verily never sleepeth! And nothing concentrates the mind more than an automated immediate suspension for a day, or a week, or a month for being part of a noise-rep circle! Commented Apr 11 at 11:20
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    @KevinB Thank you for your comment! I see that you have thought deeply about this issue and more, and know more on this issue than I do. Could you please expand more on your last comment? I am especially interested in links to meta posts that are relevant to these stories. This would help me get up to speed on these topics. Thank you very much in advance! Commented Apr 11 at 11:27
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    Two notes: never underestimate the lengths people will go to to fool an algorithm for fun or profit and someone has to design, implement, test, and maintain that algorithm at no small cost. That or let the AI teach itself and eventually exterminate humanity for being inefficient (or because the AI has evolved into seeing the sort of stupid questions we see on SO torture for its fellow programs). Commented Apr 11 at 15:43
3

Thank you for listening the community.

If you want to engage new users by trying to help the community, you can firstly make the chase of all frauders, answer post like this one which asks a good question.

Secondly, something that can be helpful is to try to make new users be able to comment. In answering reviews queue, multiple times, it's because it's few rep users that want to comment, but answer. This lead into "I can't comment yet so I post this as an answer".

Obviously, the previous proposal should also be checked to prevent spam, promotion or anything like this type of automation.

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    I sympathize for new users that want to ask clarifying questions on question posts that lack detail, but I do not support un-privileging comments- at least- not without making users go through a training module that tests comprehension of /help/privileges/comment and makes them go through an audit queue of flagging comments as "no longer needed", and not without heavy rate-limiting. commenting is a privilege to prevent spam. and, as someone who flags a lot of comments as NLN, let me tell you- way too many people do not know when they should not comment.
    – starball
    Commented Apr 9 at 8:22
  • @starball I understand, I didn't forget this type of comment. It's a good point that should be known when checking what you want to test and check abuse system. It also have to result in a diff between item not queued as NNA and between item queued as NLN that would never exist without this experiment
    – Elikill58
    Commented Apr 9 at 11:39
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    The comments that are posted as answers would also be unsuitable as comments most of the time.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Apr 9 at 13:32
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    One compromise would be to allow 1-rep users to post probationary comments. These would graduate to normal comments if upvoted X times (maybe 3), but while on probation they could be nuked by a 10k user or a user holding a silver badge in any question tag. This reduces the desirability of comments by new accounts as a spam tool because the number of users reached by a comment is greatly reduced. Combined with IP-based rate limiting, it should keep the spam out.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 18 at 14:34
-13

I support having experiments like this, even I don't like them. I share the gratitude shown on comments by some people so far. I'm glad to know that what I thought will happen regarding the user experience when the experiment was shared privately with Stack Exchange Network moderators and when volunteer sites were required, was right.

On the other hand, I'm not happy with this question title, more specifically because it start with "Pausing". While I'm open for Stack Overflow having other experiments, I hope that this one will not be resumed.

P.D. My activity on Stack Overflow has slowed down in the previous months for reasons that are unrelated to Stack Overflow and the Stack Exchange Network. I resumed tasks like posting and curating recently, but having a slow pace. The good thing about this, for me, is that it saved me from the stress and burden that you talk about.

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    I fully agree with the fact that this experiment should not be resumed. At least not without the community's permission.
    – Fastnlight
    Commented Apr 5 at 15:51
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    Disagree. The experiment should be resumed, but in a controlled environment with clear goals and unambiguous before-and-after metrics. And it's going to be freaking hard to pull that off. Commented Apr 5 at 18:45
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    how do you simultaneously support experiments like this and hope that this one does not get resumed?
    – starball
    Commented Apr 5 at 19:07
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    @starball An experiment like this should be different than this one, otherwise it is not another experiment, it's just running the same experiment again. When you have an idea, and you want to test it, let's say a hamburger recipe that you learned that is loved by New Yorkers, your idea might be to sell hamburgers to all people around the globe. If your experiment involves placing a restaurant in an international airport terminal, If people from Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, ..., and Zimbabwe tell you that they don't like it, don't keep selling the same hamburger in the same place.
    – Wicket
    Commented Apr 5 at 21:40
-19

SpencerG:

Fulfilling the accountability responsibility of "experiments" like the "1-rep voting experiment" is complex due to the diversity of stakeholders. I acknowledge that being the public face is a huge challenge. I appreciate your efforts.

As a communicator, please stop referring to whatever this question relates to that was "paused" as a "1-rep voting experiment" in question titles. While this name might be OK for informal communication, question titles should summarize the post's topic effectively. This one doesn't.

I hope that you already realized that generalizing stands as the stand of "new users", "moderators", "curators" and other roles is not working.

I am curious to know who at Stack Exchange, Inc. is the owner of the belief that changing how 1-rep votes are handled will improve the public question-and-answer platform. Please don't confuse the owner role with the leader or the community management role. So far, it's unclear who the owner of that belief is.

Stack Exchange, Inc. should ensure the belief owner can handle wicked problems. If that is not possible, the owner should seek expert support before resuming the "1-rep voting experiment".

If an owner has already been publicly announced, please point us to how this owner is performing the accountability responsibility to the public question-and-answer community. I expect to find that the owner has constructed a solid argument and communicated it effectively. I expect the owner to have publicly demonstrated a deep understanding of how the public question-and-answer system, encompassing technical and social aspects, works.

Clarification:

I'm not looking for a scapegoat; I'm looking for the individual or group with authority to "edit" the idea. In a social system with a purpose, like a business, the idea owner could be an individual or a group. The idea owner is empowered to shape the idea based on their cultural and educational background. An idea could evolve as the owner "grows" (aka acquires information, knowledge, and skills). The idea's ownership can be transferred from the conceiver to another individual and/or team. Some businesses, instead of "idea," use initiative. The terms might vary. Some use a vocabulary based on a "body of knowledge" like the one from the Project Management Institute, and others might develop their own, but in the end, the "stereotype" is the same. I'm using "stereotype" as it is used in the book "Business Modeling with UML: Business Patterns at Work" by Penker and Eriksson, published by the Object Management Group (OMG) around 2001.

In the early days, it was clear that one of the founders owned some ideas. Several months ago, Catija, no longer part of the Community Management team, asked for volunteer sites on Meta Stack Exchange. She used "we". Since SpencerG posted this question, I consider it fair to ask here to clarify who has the authority to shape the idea behind the "experiment" this question is about.


In the referred book, several figures might be handy. Some of them are available at https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Business-Modeling-with-UML-Eriksson/1d9c68b162b47c6466aa08fcad2519f80e211f4f. Below there are two images taken from this website.

I added a couple of them here. They show the use of "stereotypes". The stereotype's names are depicted at the top of the shapes enclosed in in characters similar to << and >>:

Figure 2: A goal-problem diagram based on a UML object diagram.

Goal problem diagram

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    Neither UML diagram seems related to your question. Have you added them just to show that you can have a diagram that has aliases for certain blocks? I'd then remove the 2nd one as that's completely unreadable.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 8 at 7:26

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