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We’ve got some interesting and important updates for you today.

Notably, a new collective is launching, focused on Mobile Development. There’s a separate post about that new collective where those interested in the topic can consider some specific questions and provide feedback on how the collective might be structured.

This post is a more general update on the Collectives product and the Discussions experiment. We’ll address some general concerns about Discussions. We’ll also provide some details about how the Mobile Development Collective is configured and the reasons for doing that.

Addressing general concerns about Discussions

In responses to the research and design post, in particular, there were concerns and callouts about the risks, including:

  • Blurring of the core focus/mission of Stack Overflow

  • User confusion about what kinds of questions are allowed and where those should be posted

  • Long-term value of specific posts in Discussions & concerns about curation

  • Subjective content may not be seen as high quality knowledge

  • Existing features can accomplish these goals

Those risks were part of the reason the idea of Discussions was pushed off the table for almost two years, even though user interest in that type of content kept coming up in one form or another in research. It's true that Stack Overflow's original mission – collectively increasing the sum total of good programming knowledge in the world –  makes us pretty unique on the internet, and is part of what has allowed the site and community to become the valuable resources they are. We understand that to many users, Stack Overflow is all about the community, and for others, it is primarily a transactional space to gain and pass along knowledge. Our thinking with Discussions is that we can make more space for the users who appreciate the community aspect of their experience on the site and find more connection on technical topics, without taking anything away from Q&A, which remains central to our mission. Like everything else in tech, we're seeing an evolution in how technologists are learning and how they are accessing information.

There's also a risk to Stack Overflow if we choose not to evolve. We know that we can't be everything to everyone, but even our core groups of users continue to evolve. There needs to be some balance in appealing to existing users and also making it inclusive for the next generation to come. Does that mean Discussions is the best path forward? Not necessarily, but we see a willingness to experiment and adapt as necessary for us to figure out how to meet the needs of both longtime and new users, while continuing to build on the incredible value that we know our sites provide.

Experimenting with a Discussions focus

The new Mobile Development Collective takes a different approach for Recognized Members (RM), with that role designated primarily as subject matter experts who are marked as such in the Discussions space. While built around a few core tags to create a Q&A foundation and define the general scope of that collective, there will be more focus on Discussions. Recognized Members won’t be prompted to review article submissions or mark answers as recommended on behalf of the collective. They will still be called out on the leaderboard and other collective-specific content spaces, reinforcing their status as subject matter experts.

For now, Recognized Members’ answers on questions will still receive additional markup noting their role, though we are looking at potential changes to that recommendation markup in the future. “Recommendation markup” refers to the added design elements around the author attribution for the answer.

This different configuration of permissions does not create a new type of collective. But with this approach, we’re moving the Discussions experiment forward by giving it more focus, encouraging broader discussions relevant to the audience and showing that experts are part of the conversations. We’ll be inviting anyone with a gold badge in one of the Mobile Development collective’s tags to take on the RM role. With potentially 600 RMs, the nature of the space may feel different and we’re interested to see what happens.

This more discussions-focused usage of the Recognized Member role will be specific to the Mobile Development Collective right now, and we’ll be evaluating how that works and what those users’ experience is like. There will be no changes to the existing RM role in other collectives. We want to keep working with those RMs to evolve the role and its broader curation focus on all content types.


What do you think about a collective focused mainly on Discussions?

What do you think about Recognized Members with pared-down permissions, so that their subject matter expertise is mainly expressed in the Discussion space?

Thoughts and feedback about anything brought up here are welcome. Though please note that if you have specific input about the Mobile Development Collective’s scope and content, that may be better placed on the post focused on that collective.

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    Why should “SME”’s who join a collective be more “recognized” than those who don’t? If the intent is to allow gold badge holders to have more influence over discussions, why is collective membership a requirement?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 17:34
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    "There's also a risk to Stack Overflow if we choose not to evolve" sounds a lot like the arguments made continually by pro-LLM users. On its own, it's a weak justification for any action, granting that worthwhile experiments are necessary. So many popular platforms are losing the magic that made them great in the first place: Unity, Reddit, Google, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, GitHub, Amazon, ... you name it. It's been one dumpster fire after another this year--not caused by doubling down on what works, but by trying unjustified experiments that ignored core users.
    – ggorlen
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 17:43
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    I seem to have missed the part that is actually "Addressing general concerns about Discussions". Here I just see some concerns being enumerated. Is there a different post that actually addresses them? Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:12
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    @MisterMiyagi That follows on the research and design post that's linked there and so perhaps the context could be more clear. It's acknowledging the concerns and risks and then talking about why they're worth taking.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:15
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    @KevinB For now, the RM role is what gets them the little badge denoting them as SMEs, and denoting that is an important signal. But membership isn't required to post a reply in Discussions. Would it be better to just show their gold badge status there?
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:21
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    if the important signal is that they have a gold badge, then yea that should be the signal... Does it make sense for one to be required to join a collective for the badge they earned to be displayed?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:28
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    @ggorlen I don't see a connection between LLMs and Discussions. I'm not supporting neither, but bringing up one to dismiss the other doesn't seem valid to me. That said, I agree that ignoring core users is a serious problem. Speaking of SO in particular, the decline in the traffic came before most of the recent problematic developments. So I'd not dismiss the need for change, even if I don't like it (SO is a business after all). Posts like this, soliciting feedback while keeping an open mind, are a step forward. But, I also wish there was a little more focus on features requested by community. Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:47
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    @M-- I think you missed the point of the comparison. Both parties use the justification "the future is here, let's evolve and stop living in the past" that seems pretty universal these days. Regardless of who or what mentions it, it doesn't justify anything. It's used by people who want change for its own sake (or have an ulterior motive) and can't come up with particularly good, honest arguments for whatever it is they're proposing. Same thing applies when people claim certain technologies or changes are "inevitable", so you might as well hop on the gravy train whether you like it or not.
    – ggorlen
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:52
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    @M-- I'm not dismissing change or experimentation in general, but it needs to be good and it needs to be justified and accepted by the community. Most of the changes and proposals I'm seeing aren't achieving this. I don't see a problem with having a high standard of proof for adopting a particular change or feature, given the track record and status quo at hand.
    – ggorlen
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:53
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    @ggorlen I think your point could be better elaborated in (and is actually qualifies for) an answer. Thanks for the clarification. Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 19:00
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    @M-- No problem, thanks for asking, although I left comments because I didn't think I was answering the posed questions. Also, I'm not really super familiar with collectives or discussions except in passing. Just trying to identify that there doesn't seem to be a clear value prop or community buy-in behind a lot of these initiatives. Makoto's answer nails it for me.
    – ggorlen
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 19:58
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    Related: How to revisit the use of pros/cons to format discussion (posted as new post as it's not answering what is asked here, and I don't remember if one of the provious post asked for something like that).
    – Wicket
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 20:10
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    The impression I'm getting from all this is that the company doesn't have a particularly strong (or any) vision of where it wants to go. There's not much community support because nobody's telling us what you're trying to do in the long term in the first place. With the original vision (the one on the top of the tour page) no longer being pushed for, it's just random experiements and attempts at microoptimization all around. Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 5:59
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    "What do you think about a collective focused mainly on Discussions?" Good question. I was actually hoping to find it in the question. You write that more focus is given on discussions now but you don't say how that focus is increased (or I couldn't find it). With the bold question you seem to test if we have read and understood the text. Or I'm a bit confused. I have no idea how the focus on discussions has actually been increased. This question also maybe should get a more specific title. What has been updated specifically? Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 11:52
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    @NotThatGuy I'm not clinging to the status quo for the sake of clinging to the status quo. I'm rejecting LLMs on SO because I don't see that they add value to the site. I've said it so many times on meta, but anyone who wants to use LLMs can certainly go and do that--we're not stopping them. But by spamming SO with mostly-incorrect LLM spew, great damage is done to being able to access verified human programming knowledge. This is a coherent argument beyond "get with the program" vibe I'm referring to above. I don't care about potential, I care about reality. The reality is LLMs are weak.
    – ggorlen
    Commented Oct 13, 2023 at 15:42

5 Answers 5

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The right decision at this point is for those of us who hold some kind of reservation towards Collectives is to simply acquiesce.

The feedback we've been providing in good faith is being mostly...bulled over by this sentiment.

There's also a risk to Stack Overflow if we choose not to evolve. We know that we can't be everything to everyone, but even our core groups of users continue to evolve. There needs to be some balance in appealing to existing users and also making it inclusive for the next generation to come.

As in...

The company addresses a corps of users on Meta, who are largely either ambivalent about these attempts, hold some optimism but provide feedback, or who are significantly less optimistic about the success of this or even what role it has on the site, and say to them that if they don't do this, then there's a risk to the future of Stack Overflow.

I've provided a lot of feedback on Collectives and even more recently, Discussions. I still do not understand what it is you're trying to push for, or why the company thinks that this is the right direction, and no one is in a great hurry to explain it.

But all of that changes because the energy is, "if we don't experiment, the site is in trouble!1"

So, is it 'whatever' to my opinions? Is it 'thanks, we'll keep it filed' to my well-written feedback about this horrendously confusing feature that you just keep feeding? Are you doing this because you think I want something else, but you know I don't?

I suppose...do what you wish? You'll experiment on this, you'll iterate on this, and you'll generate data points that you can refer to, all the while the subjective human expert that's in this shell grows more and more disconnected from the site by the day, questioning if it's even worth it.

My feedback doesn't seem to count. That's the energy that I'm getting from this.

If that isn't the case, then you're going to need to change your tone here. Whether or not the site succeeds is your burden, not mine. I'm here to get professional answers to questions, and to provide professional answers to questions.

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Who is deciding what becomes a Collective?

I've said this in many venues - Collectives and what they offer are a powerful tool. Since the early days of Stack Overflow, people have asked for ways to organize tags in way. The additional organization for tags, but also additional content in the form of Articles and Discussions can be powerful. If this kind of functionality was developed a decade ago, we wouldn't have a lot of the network fracturing that we have today, and I firmly believe that this network fracturing is holding back several communities from growing to a full potential of usefulness.

However, some of these decisions on what becomes a Collective and what doesn't makes little sense to me. The new Mobile Development Collective is a good example. I'm not immensely familiar with mobile development, but I am familiar enough to know that native iOS development is very different than native Android development, and both are different than using cross-platform frameworks or building a mobile-friendly web app and taking advantage of mobile browser functionality instead of distributing apps through an app store. Treating these fundamentally different types of mobile development as one sub-community (and, realistically, that is what a Collective is - a more specialized sub-community of developers) doesn't make sense.

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    Excellent points about the network fracturing and the decade-ago "what if?". That is definitely on our minds as we look ahead and think about subcommunity. The shape and size of a subcommunity should be in the hands of its members ideally. There is that opportunity for feedback now, and on an ongoing basis (conversations happening on today's other post)
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 18:58
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    @Berthold So...why did you make the Collective first instead of soliciting ideas from the community for what should be Collectives? Unless I'm missing something here. I admit that most of my time on SO is getting there from search results since it's hard to manage content in the topics that specifically interest me, so I invest my time elsewhere. Launching a Collective should be a grassroots effort, starting with someone identifying a useful scope for a Collective, getting feedback on that, and then launching it. Commented Sep 27, 2023 at 20:16
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    I missed this question earlier but your answer here seems to mesh well with mine on the other half of this - the Mobile Development collective. It seems to be an attempt to create a community out of what they think is a good buzz word rather than out of what the existing community needs. Having slightly less than zero interest in Collectives I've not bothered to investigate articles and discussions, yet I cannot see either, or even the collective itself, serving the existing or future needs of community members, only corporate speak - and if very lucky, corporate image.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 2:36
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    Collectives still feel like a solution to a problem SO is shopping around for. The more recently added collections, e.g. the Mobile Development Collective I also stumbled across recently, make little to no sense at all.
    – Drew Reese
    Commented Sep 29, 2023 at 19:26
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    @DrewReese There definitely is, or at least was, a problem. However, a lot of the problem was solved in the last ~13 years by making new sites. More than a few network sites started off as a group of users on SO wanting to get away from the noise of SO and have a more focused community. Now, a different problem exists and that is needing to manage multiple sites, to either contribute to or find relevant answers depending on what you're trying to do. Commented Sep 29, 2023 at 19:42
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What do you think about a collective focused mainly on Discussions?

I think I'm even more confused around what a collective is. I thought originally it was just some fancy tag that you could earn some revenue from, but now I guess their focus is to beta test new initiatives?

What do you think about Recognized Members with pared-down permissions, so that their subject matter expertise is mainly expressed in the Discussion space?

Is permissions the right word here? I didn't see anything additional they're permitted to do inside a collective. But the pretty banners or whatever they get wouldn't be the worse thing if it was based around recent submissions. I.e., it would be terrible to show me as an SME in a C# collective when I got my gold badge by using C# 4.0.

Note: I still don't like discussions; they just appear to be confusing users as to where they should post a question for the most part.

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    ...Hold on, there was a financial incentive? Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 6:02
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    @KarlKnechtel the first Collectives that were launched were where a company paid for it. For example Intel and Google. The most recent launched collectives like PHP, R, and now Mobile development aren't subsidised by any external company.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 6:52
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    Oh, a financial incentive for SE Inc. Oh well. Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 6:53
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    I think collectives are supposed to be sub-communities of SO, but not sure. Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 11:53
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    The other "permissions" recognized members of other Collectives have are 1) marking up existing answers with "recognized answer" flair, 2) reviewing/providing feedback on/approving articles, 3) removing Q&As from collections, and 4) access to private discussions. Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 14:07
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What about curation?

The one thing that is definitely not fully thought of, is curation of Discussions.

Right now Mobile Development collection Discussions have 8 posts. Out of those 3 don't belong there as they are questions belonging to the main site. Two of them have already been posted on main site, before users tried their luck in Discussions.

And this is just a beginning. The moment people realize that posting in Discussions does not have any repercussions, they will stop asking their poor questions on main site and will start using the Discussions as an alternative. Not to mention users that are banned from asking questions. What prevents them to use Discussions?

You need to think about this fast and figure out the solutions sooner rather than later.

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    "The moment people realize that posting in Discussions does not have any repercussions, they will stop asking their poor questions on main site and will start using the Discussions as an alternative." Wouldn't that be great. I think this is the desired effect. Poor questions need to go to discussions where people can tell them what is wrong with their question in a more conversational environment. Curation of discussions might not really be needed if there isn't great content included in discussions. Commented Sep 30, 2023 at 20:23
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Why is limiting permissions is necessary?

The "permissions" of recognized members in other collectives are relatively benign:

  1. Marking up existing answers with "recognized answer" flair
  2. Reviewing, providing feedback on, and approving articles
  3. Removing Q&As from collections
  4. Access to private discussions

Are you worried about keeping tabs on 600 users potentially abusing these features?

Or are you trying to focus user activity on one particular new feature that you want to test?

Either way, I'm not sold on the idea that this fragmentation of functionality is worth the risk. It's hard enough for people to understand how Collectives work as it is.

With limited permissions, what even is the purpose of a recognized member?

I see the role of the R Collective recognized members as trying to foster a collection of high quality questions and answers, a welcoming community where people can get expert help quickly, and attempting to make Stack Overflow's experiments in discussions as successful as possible while aspiring to meet the community's high expectations of content on the network. I'm not a recognized member in an other Collective, but I assume that's how it's working elsewhere.

It seems like what you're proposing is user flair for 600 gold badge holders. I personally do not believe this will help anyone participating in a discussion. Reputation is already displayed next to usernames in a discussion. Also, why not just show the gold badges right on the comments?

Mock up of gold badge indicator.

Overall, while I wouldn't consider Collectives a resounding success despite your team's considerable efforts, I worry that this watered-down version of recognized members is a step in the wrong direction.

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    Perhaps “permissions”, while accurate in a technical sense, was the wrong term to use here. We’re aiming to reduce the obligations (real or perceived) on RMs in this collective so that they can focus on Discussions. Specifically, removing the focus on Q&A that comes from the different types of recommendation. We’re separately looking at the recommendation markup and will likely be making changes there in the future. And more broadly, we are experimenting using the configuration options we have. My answer here talks about that: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/426675/18279858
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 21:42
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    As for "show the gold badges right on the comments", that's a possibility.
    – Berthold StaffMod
    Commented Sep 28, 2023 at 21:44
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    @Berthold Thanks, your comment nicely clarifies what the team is hoping to achieve with this change / experiment. Commented Sep 29, 2023 at 19:59

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