-35

Update:

  • I've toned down the language in the title and the body of this post. You can see the original in the edit history, if desired, and there are references to it in the comments. The original wording was a reflection of my exasperation, but it was needlessly incendiary - my apologies.

  • Perhaps needless to say, it is my perception that what occurred constitutes a personal attack, but I invite you to see for yourself.


To be clear:

  • What this post is not about:

    • Discussing the merits of improving the existing mechanism for encouraging new user to "do the right thing" - to me, this is well worth discussing, but separately.

      • Update: More specifically, this post was therefore also never about discussing the behavior that led to the moderator warning.
    • Identifying a particular member of the moderator team (my original attempt to ask them to identify themselves in a private exchange notwithstanding).

    • Having a respectful disagreement, including the choice to exit a conversation - which, needless to say, is perfectly acceptable.

  • What this post is about:

    • Sparing other users the treatment described below.

    • Ensuring accountability in private conversations with users.


  • I received a private message from the Stack Overflow Moderation Team containing what I presume to be a form letter (canned message) asking me not to use comments to ask users to accept answers. (Even if it wasn't a form letter, it was a calmly worded message that made specific points, some of which I disputed in my response).

  • I wrote a response, which can be summarized as follows (but I invite you to study the transcript to see if this summary is apt):

    • I agreed to stop posting these comments, because I agree that the guidance my comments were meant to provide are better provided by a mechanism built into the site.

      Fair enough, I'll stop

    • The following thoughts were - literally - labeled asides, because I was cognizant that it was a separate discussion:

      • I explained my motivation for posting these comments.

      • I voiced my concerns about characterizing whether users should accept answers as "completely optional" vs. voluntary with a view toward guiding them to the behavior that benefits the community at large.

      • I stated that I was unaware that a mechanism already existed (I've never seen it) and that, given my experience with the results of posting my comments, the existing mechanism strikes me as inadequate, and inquired whether improvements were underway.

      • In short: it was an invitation to reach a shared understanding about how (new) users should be guided toward behavior that benefits the community as a whole (whether or not the exchange at hand was the right place to continue this discussion is irrelevant).

The (non-canned) response that followed I can only describe as a mixture of the following, in no particular order:

  • assumptions of ill intent

  • speculation about motivation

  • casting aspersions

  • gratuitous threats [update: a repeat warning was justified, given that I didn't make it clear enough that I would comply; even so, the wording strikes me as incendiary]

A few quotes (again, I invite you to study the transcript):

You've been around long enough (...)

Stop trying to bring it back. [I had no idea what I was trying to "bring back", and certainly didn't ask for it]

Frankly, reading your reply to this message gives the impression that you have developed quite some entitlement complex

that just solidifies our concerns about you bullying users

Further comments of that kind will be deleted upon sight, with no notification, and may lead to sanctions against your account.

In short: a personal attack, with no accountability (no response was received after my calling for accountability).

Update: On further reflection, I realize I must show accountability myself:

  • My first response was not as neutral as I believed it to be, so I can now see my part in this escalation - see my answer for details.

Transcript:

38
  • 24
    The way that first quote is presented is a bit selective. The full quote "You've been around long enough to remember that accept rate used to be shown publicly." has a very different connotation to just "You've been around long enough (...)".
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 2:50
  • 21
    Can you describe here what you think is "unprofessional"? It is part of a moderator's job to assess users' motivations in terms of actions they have taken on the site. No one likes being called out, which is why we do it in private, rather than in public. It appears you think it is unprofessional (or even a "gratuitous threat"?) to warn you that future comments of this nature will be deleted on sight, but I don't see how it is either of those. It's an attempt to be clear. If your reply had left it as "Fair enough, I'll stop", as you imply here, there would have been no need for a mod response.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 2:51
  • 8
    As I gather it, you appear to be most upset that a moderator made the assumption that you knew about the old "accept rate" feature and that you were trying to "bring it back". That was, admittedly, an assumption that the moderator made, in an attempt to try to understand your mindset that accepting answers is necessary/important, and that any reasonable attempt on your part to encourage this is intrinsically good. All of those premises are wrong, so how should we proceed? Just tell you that you are wrong? We try to understand the motivations of users so we can best address their concerns.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 2:55
  • 16
    Meh, other than perhaps the "entitlement complex" comment I think they were civil enough (and even in context that makes sense). You're making this far bigger than it is. Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 3:19
  • 7
    How does an accepted answer benefit the whole community? Is this a "when an answer is selected, then the question is solved/done" mindset? If "no", how would the "whole community" benefit? If "yes", would that make sense in an area which keeps evolving and needs constant updates, especially on a site which gives less and less meaning/importance to the fact that an answer has been accepted?
    – Tom
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 3:20
  • 5
    To be clear, I wasn't trying to highlight a specific reason, I was just noting that the way it was quoted changed the connotation of the statement. You present an issue about tone and attitude, but my questions is: what would a resolution look like? Do you have a system for accountability in mind? What mechanism do you think would be reasonable to put in place to ensure the level of professionalism you were expecting? Do you have an actionable request of the mod team or the SO community?
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 3:28
  • 11
    Just as a note (and not saying this was part of the accountability you were looking for) but moderator messages were made anonymous due to real life retribution experienced by SE mods due to their actions as a moderator.
    – Henry Ecker Mod
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 3:30
  • 7
    The canned message was perfect. The follow-up, less so, and was probably best left out altogether. I believe the crux of the matter lies on the closing lines, which seem to me ill-advised in a couple of ways. But all in all, the whole message could have been avoided. Nothing new was brought to bear, and the message was not helpful in deescalating (or simply avoiding escalation) of the situation. Around here, we often repeat the importance of "moving on" when encountering disagreement. I think that the mod reply reads like a failure in that regard.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 6:00
  • 15
    @yivi I might agree with you if mklement0's reply has consisted exclusively (or nearly so) of what he saw fit to quote here: "Fair enough, I'll stop". However, the bulk of his reply consisted of reasons why he disagreed with the initial message, which served to almost completely undermine (or at least carve out exceptions to) the indication that he would stop. At that point, a reply is almost required, if for no other reason than to avoid giving the signal of a moderator's acquiescence to or agreement with the objections/exceptions raised in the reply.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 6:30
  • 12
    A moderator message reply is not an appropriate place to "start a dialog about properly solving the perceived problem". A moderator message reply like that, in our experience, strongly suggests that a user did not take our initial message seriously and has no plans to actually stop what they have been requested to stop. There is no evidence of contrition, only a belligerent posture that you were correct to have been doing so all along due to perceived failures in the system. Whether that was your specific intention, I can't say; only provide context of what has been our consistent experience
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 6:31
  • 9
    @CodyGray As a general rule, replies like this are best ignored, IMO, not engaged. When warning a user about undesirable conduct, there are two possible outcomes: they stop that behavior, or they don't. If they don't stop, additional steps may be required, and they were already adequately warned by the first canned message. If they do change their behavior, then the response to the warning becomes irrelevant. But in any case, if one chooses to reply, one should try to be extra careful in replying in a way that would help reach a peaceful resolution to the matter.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 6:44
  • 4
    I very much disagree; no matter how many times I re-read your message, I do not see it as fundamentally agreeing to stop the discussed behavior. Rather, I see it as an attempt to re-litigate what a moderator had already told you, in no uncertain terms, to stop. Again, I'll allow that this impression is colored by the type of replies that we generally receive from users to moderator messages, as well as the fact that a mod message reply is not the right place to start a general, unrelated discussion. But, yes, we fundamentally disagree that the problem was not your behavior. It was.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 7:02
  • 15
    In fact, that is precisely the point: your reply to the mod message suggested that you did not think your behavior was the problem, and you continue to suggest as such, which means that the initial mod message did not have the desired effect, which was to advise you that your behavior was problematic and needed to stop, with no exceptions. When users refuse to listen to moderators and reply with excuses that attempt to justify their behavior, the replies tend to get sterner. I still don't see anything wrong with the tone and wording, other than that you disagree with its characterization.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 7:02
  • 9
    "I still think my initial response is unambiguous" You're doing the same thing here, mate... Cody is telling you how your response is perceived. You may not agree, but that really doesn't matter. Your response resulted in the sterner mod message. That's on you, and you alone.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 7:21
  • 6
    @mklement0 Accepting is--and always has been--optional; this is a simple matter of fact. You can ask a question, and the system does not require that you accept an answer after one or more have been created. If it were required, you would have a time limit before the system auto-accepted the highest-scored one, or the system would allow others (moderators, trusted users, answerers... doesn't matter) to select the "accepted" answer (like Microsoft's various Q&A forums).
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 21:24

3 Answers 3

43

So, you got warned not to use comments to beg for upvotes, and then started arguing with the moderators... Of course their reply isn't going to be perfect, they're humans.

With great rep comes great responsibility.
Users do see you as an authority figure due to your big number, and as the moderator explained in those messages, vote-begging like that is just not done.

You got warned.
You argued, indicating that you were likely going to ignore the warning.
The moderator doubled down.

Seems like the system is working as intended, to me.

Could they have worded some lines better? Maybe. Does that warrant a whole meta discussion? Probably not.

Your last reply there certainly wasn't constructive. You were just throwing accusations at the moderator.


Seeing as this question has taken a turn of the OP doubling down on his "mods bad" train of thought, I feel I have to address part of his self-answer, that address me:

  • Its purpose - as explicitly stated in the OP - was to draw attention to improper conduct by a moderator - see the next section.

  • Unfortunately, both the comments on the OP and Cerbrus' answer devolved into discussing the incidental aspect of the subject matter surrounding that conduct.

    • That is understandable, because it's hard to keep those two aspects separate.
    • I too got sucked back into discussing the subject matter.
    • Yet, it is a distraction from what this post is about.
  • The only thing (again) worth stating about the incidental subject matter is that it should be discussed separately (which I may initiate at some point in a new post, and which I personally think think very much deserves discussing).

The whole issue here is that the OP started arguing with the moderator, (unintentionally) indicating he had absolutely no intention to follow the instructions.

Whilst the moderator's reply wasn't perfect, you can hardly hold them to a standard you yourself don't keep.

After downplaying the inappropriate response, you focused on another incidental aspect: my response to it.

You keep repeating that it's "incidental". It's not! It's the whole reason the messages went the way they did!

That's the whole problem here.
You're trying to make the moderators look bad, and even after you admitted your message had a hand in the escalation:

enter image description here

... you went back on your word and doubled down on your "But the mod was baaaad!" rhetoric in a self-answer here.

No, this doesn't need more analysis.
No, this doesn't need repercussions.
No, this doesn't need another question.

This pedantic over-analysis of how a mod worded what they wrote is petty, childish and a waste of everyone's time.

We get it, the message was sub-optimal. So was your first response.

All involved parties have been a bad boy. Now shake hands and get over it like adults.

41
  • 4
    Yes, my last reply was in part unhelpful (my being annoyed with the response showed, unfortunately) - I should have limited my response to calling out the inappropriate behavior. Being called out for inappropriate behavior and going incommunicado is not the system working, especially if the recipient is in a position of power. Posting here on meta is the system working. And, not to start the discussion again, but there was no "begging" - if you read the exchange in full, perhaps my intent will become clearer (no need to follow up on this).
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 6:59
  • 23
    @mklement0 I see a very concerning pattern playing out, both in the mod message reply, as well as in the comments here: You make a bold opinionated claim, one that is almost certainly going to be objectionable and which runs directly counter to the position staked out by the other party, and then you declare that there is no need to reply or follow up on that point, essentially carving out your position as beyond refutation. That's frustrating, to say the least, if not completely disingenuous. You don't get to decide which of your assertions can/will be followed up on.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 7:07
  • 12
    No, I do need to follow up on that comment. Exactly as Cody said, you leave me a comment I disagree with, yet you feel the need to shut down any discussion before I get a chance to reply. I mean, "not to start the discussion again" and then you immediately follow up with you starting the discussion again.., That "vote begging" is just the general rule that all "Please vote for <reason>" comments fall under. You're assuming I haven't read the exchange, which is extremely unconstructive. You're forgetting you're communicating with humans here. We don't all communicate perfectly.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 7:13
  • 6
    You failed to address "That "vote begging" is just the general rule that all "Please vote for <reason>" comments fall under.". They're not accusing you of begging, they're telling you to stop posting comments like that.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 7:27
  • 5
    That was in response to your "A perception of "begging" shouldn't be of concern to anyone", which is just a general statement (by you). The reply doesn't accuse you of "begging", @mklement0.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 7:39
  • 11
    A lot of users beg for votes, which is why we have that rule. A lot of users also post comments informing others (how) to vote, in the hopes to receive upvotes, which is why more "helpful" comments also fall under that rule. I don't think any moderator thinks your information isn't helpful, but the comments are just not the place to do that, and that's the crux of the issue here. If you want to help new users understand the voting system, that's awesome! Comments are just not the right place.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 7:50
  • 10
    This particular case aside, we're very much trying to discourage that, @Larnu, as far too many users are taking it as a green light to post hundreds of these comments on different posts, and that's just too much. Frankly, Ben's advice from 2014 is out of date today, with improvements to the system. It hasn't aged well, and is no longer endorsed by the moderator team.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 10:27
  • 8
    If that's the case, @CodyGray , the linked answer should really be updated; it is not apparent that the mod team's opinion on such comments has changed (I was not aware of this and I have never been advised otherwise when I have made such comments).
    – Thom A
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 10:32
  • 4
    @CodyGray What should we do then? This entire post is a clear indicator that guiding new users to vote for good answers and accept answers which worked for them is no longer an acceptable practice, despite that it once was considered correct advice. The linked question is extremely highly up voted, as is its accepted answer, and many users of the site are still following that recommendation today. Yes, we should listen to the current recommendations by mods but the older, more popular post still muddys the water here.
    – codewario
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 12:34
  • 3
    @CodyGray Then it seems like this is a good opportunity to revise any templates the mod team uses to make it more clear that all messages are a 'knock off your <behavior> warning', or at least, carry a more clear 'warning' tone. The message above simply looks like a polite but firm request as written. If I were to get a mod message like that, I would certainly think "oh, this is an opportunity for me to engage in a private back-and-forth discussion or debate with a moderator directly over the points of their message", which I'm guessing is not what mods want most of the time, if ever.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 20, 2022 at 13:40
  • 5
    Wow. Thank you for the feedback, @TylerH & mklement0. These perspectives are…quite honestly, something I've never once considered. It is nearly absurd to me that a user would receive a private message from a moderator in this format and think it was an invitation to start a discussion or some sort of friendly advice. To me, it can never be anything but a warning to knock it off. Replies are allowed so that extenuating circumstances can be explained and/or the policy can be clarified if necessary. But apparently my perspective is not obvious to other smart people, so room for improvement.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 2:58
  • 4
    @CodyGray to me it's absurd the mod message was sent in the first place. mklement0 did the right thing by pointing it out there&then with a timely wtf instead of filling forms A-through-Z-6-to-8. We the community -mods included!- should consider ourselves lucky that only 2 users were contacted who know how to speak and stand up for themselves, it allowed to surface this issue sooner rather than later. Lastly I think a mod replying to a user with "some sort of entitlement complex" is snarky and unbecoming, it's the kind of thing some mods just don't do and others certainly shouldn't.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Apr 26, 2022 at 9:35
  • 6
    Cerbrus: Yelling wildly inappropriate things ("Get the eff over it already") into the void doesn't make them less inappropriate. If your argument can be reduced to "You did bad things, so it's OK they did too", it is specious: Despite the - acknowledged as such by me, repeatedly - abrasive packaging of my arguments, they were debatable arguments (which, incidentally, I stand by). By contrast, the moderator response was a blatant personal attack. The moral equivalence you're trying to establish is all the more problematic because moderators are in a position of power. /cc @bad_coder.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 27, 2022 at 2:01
  • 5
    @Cerbrus Please stop. No one is being intentionally malicious here; those words are pouring unnecessary gasoline onto this thread. Your focus is squarely on OP taking accountability for their arguing. OP's focus is on the mod's words when "doubling down", which were arguably much more attacking than they needed to be. Neither side was perfectly eloquent, both have things to learn and takeaway from this experience. I think the back and forth can be done at this point.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Apr 27, 2022 at 16:47
  • 3
    @Cerbrus My point is that accusations of the other party being "malicious" don't help your case. No more, no les..
    – zcoop98
    Commented Apr 27, 2022 at 16:49
-19

Let me try to bring closure to this post:

  • Its purpose - as explicitly stated in the OP - was to draw attention to improper conduct by a moderator - see the next section.

  • Unfortunately, both the comments on the OP and Cerbrus' answer devolved into discussing the incidental aspect of the subject matter surrounding that conduct.

    • That is understandable, because it's hard to keep those two aspects separate.

    • I too got sucked back into discussing the subject matter.

    • Yet, it is a distraction from what this post is about.

    • Update, as an aside: said answer was later edited to include language that strikes me as rude or abusive, per the CoC; a flag to that effect was denied, which led to this follow-up post; that post deliberately didn't mention or link back to this one, because I consider it an entirely separate issue; however, the ensuing discussion invariably involved this post, which is why I am now linking the two.

  • The only thing (again) worth stating about the incidental subject matter is that it should be discussed separately (which I may initiate at some point in a new post, and which I personally think think very much deserves discussing).

    • Update: The subject matter is now being discussed here.

The post was about personal conduct and accountability.

To recap: The starting point was my receiving a warning from the moderator team not to engage in a certain behavior (again, for the purposes of this post, it doesn't matter what the behavior was, although it can certainly be gleaned from the transcript and the existing comments / answer).

Let's start with my accountability:

  • Procedural mistakes:

    • Since my intent was never to dispute the substance of the warning (my intent was always to comply) I shouldn't have tried to start a follow-up discussion in my response - Meta is the place for that.

    • Even though I thought I had, I can now see that I did not make it sufficiently clear that my intent was to comply, so I was operating under the - mistaken assumption - that my first response had communicated that intent, and that my - explicitly labeled a such - asides were an invitation to discuss what I perceive to be the larger - impersonal - problem (again, I should have done that on Meta).

  • Etiquette mistakes:

    • While my asides all made general points worthy of debate (and you don't have to agree with those points - you just need to see that they were arguments of a general nature, and as such debatable):

      • I did't want to admit to myself at the time that they were colored by my annoyance at some of what the form letter that constituted the original warning implied.

      • As a result, the tone of my asides was imperious and perhaps condescending: I should not have done that, and I can understand how that can trigger readers. I will be more mindful of how I phrase things in the future.

      • In my response to the - inappropriate and abusive - response I received (see below), I made the mistake of trying to engage the arguments at the core of the abuse, and did so in a prickly manner conducive to continuing the escalation: I should not have done that; instead, I should have limited by response to calling out the abuse (which I did at the end).

As for moderator accountability:

The premise is that I now see that my initial response didn't make it sufficiently clear that I would comply and that a response to ensure that I would was called for.

  • A simple "we want to make sure that you'll abstain from the behavior we warned you about" would have sufficed.

  • Optionally and ideally, a hint that follow-up discussions should be taken to Meta would have been appreciated.

  • Instead, the response was inappropriate and abusive, as detailed in the OP - with no subsequent accountability.

    • While some commenters have somewhat acknowledged this, by and large it was brushed aside in favor of discussing what this post isn't about.

    • Indeed, we are all human and make mistakes; what matters is that we own up to them, and hopefully do better next time.

    • Moderators are in a position of power, and with power comes responsibility:

      • A big part of their job - and I applaud them for that - is dealing with frustrated users who come a them with emotions.
      • An equally big part is not to take things personally and not to respond from that place, which to me is clearly what happened here - in a particularly ugly and unaccountable fashion.
25
  • 4
    Before someone blitzes this post to derail it - the mod's answer to you was a break from the high level of professionalism SO mods had accustomed us to over the years. It lowered the bar to a level that's inexcusable and what SE the company advises in this case is using the contact form to report it as a CoC violation (because something is seriously wrong in how that went from the mod's side and it went way beyond acceptable).
    – bad_coder
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 2:49
  • 1
    Next, this latest trend of going after users like you and akrun who link to the Help Center in 4% of their comments hasn't been discussed and goes against the established long held community consensus - I could link you to posts by SO moderators who do they same in threads where they answered and there's nothing wrong with your conduct in doing so.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 2:50
  • 3
    The historical consensus about the matter is summarized in this post by Martjin Peters and also this post by Bill the Lizard - you did nothing wrong, because none of those guidelines have been subject to a broader debate since and thus haven't been superseded.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 3:20
  • 18
    @bad_coder Your statements here are patently false. The actions taken by the user that led up to the moderator message were unacceptable, a clear violation of site policy, and will not be permitted going forward. I would prefer that you not give users advice that they "did nothing wrong" when following such advice is going to get them into trouble in the future. But, aside from that, as mklement has noted countless times, his intention in this Q&A is not to discuss the issue of comments about acceptance, but rather the failure/breakdown of communication on both sides w.r.t. mod messages.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 4:15
  • 13
    Please read Martijn's answer more carefully: "If there is a widespread pattern, flag one of posts by the user illustrating the problem, and explain the pattern in a in need of moderator intervention message. […] Moderators have the tools to handle cases like these. I've handled this case…" That's exactly what happened here—an extremely widespread pattern—and, as with the earlier case that Martijn handled, so was this one handled by moderators.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 4:36
  • 1
    @CodyGray that's twisting the intent of what Martjin said as in the very same paragraph he validates the conduct and assumes doing so himself.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 4:41
  • 16
    Whereas you are purporting to advise users regarding the permissibility of actions without having access to any knowledge regarding the context, nature, or scale at which such actions were undertaken. My claim is that that is harmful advice which will lead users astray. I am therefore requesting you to stop proffering this advice. I can assure you there is absolutely nothing being "twisted" here. It was never Martijn's intent to allow or encourage users to blast this site with hundreds or thousands of comments requesting that their own answers be accepted by askers. @bad_coder
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 4:44
  • 2
    Not only does Matjin do so himself, but I will also let him speak for himself.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 4:48
  • 2
    @CodyGray, I appreciate your attempt to refocus the debate, as I appreciate bad_coder's perspective. Given that there's seemingly no avoiding what this post didn't want to talk about: In case your comments were meant to characterize my past conduct: that is a gross misrepresentation of what my comments were doing: Posting comments with general advice that an answer be accepted if appropriate, as I have, is a very different thing from "requesting their own answers be accepted" - even if the majority (not all) of these comments were made on posts where I (also) posted answers.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 4:58
  • 2
    @mklement0 just for the sake of disclosure and transparency I have talked to CodyGray many times before in chat so I believe I'm not mistaken to say: "we're acquainted" and I do consider him an "SO friend" although I believe he doesn't consider me as such. Now, however much I appreciate Cody he often says himself he's: "biased; opinionated" and his writing can make what is his view come across as law&decree when it's actually not. I also get a feeling he likes to -on occasion- win arguments but I've learned to appreciate him for his engaged approachability.
    – bad_coder
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 5:21
  • 1
    bad_coder, what the Martjin Peters link states is a perfect example of what I think should continue to be acceptable: if the OP goes out of their way to thank an answerer, pointing them to a help-center article about accepting answers makes perfect sense. My efforts were more methodical than that: whenever a question I was involved with - typically in the form of posting an answer, often among others - didn't result in accepting an answer, I would post a comment with general guidance. It is this methodical approach that I believe should be automated, which eliminates concerns re self-interest
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 22, 2022 at 1:00
  • 9
    No, it's an unmistakable indication that (A) users repeatedly ignore advice that they are given, and/or (B) users exercise the option not to accept an answer. You cannot assume that because users are not doing it that the guidance provided is insufficient. The conclusion simply doesn't follow from the premises.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 22, 2022 at 3:12
  • 1
    @CodyGray, users can only make a choice if they know they have one. Here's a recent example of an OP leaving the following comment on the only answer given, which they did not accept: "thank you kindly that worked perfectly, and thank you for explaining in detail its really helped my understanding cheers." Which explanation is more likely? (a) Despite those words, they made a(n undisclosed) choice not to accept. (b) They are unaware of the rules of the site. I can assure you, this is not an isolated incident. It deserves systematic investigation, though that sounds nontrivial.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 22, 2022 at 12:40
  • 1
    @mklement0 that post is an old SE trick, not to call someone names directly instead calling their post names. It is a CoC violation, the contact form has to be used (although in the past staff might have tried to also whitewash things). E.g. Turd polishing was abolished with the VP's support, as a consequence of this post with some mods very much in favor of verbal abuse.
    – bad_coder
    Commented May 23, 2022 at 19:03
  • 5
    @bad_coder Do you not see the irony in claiming that it is a CoC violation to criticize a post, yet continue—weeks later—to post side-swipes at me, by name, and imply (by comparison) that I lack integrity or a spine? I am quite offended by your comments. I have no problem whatsoever with people disagreeing with me, or even the majority of the community disagreeing with me. But for you to attack me personally in the way you've done here is really just taking it too far. Please stop.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented May 24, 2022 at 8:22
-27

The site, in form of moderators, dictate the rules and you need to comply or leave the site.

You agreed to the rules and should so follow them and should not try to bend them a little, especially when you get warned, presumably more than once.

A dispute will not bear any fruits as the case will be discussed beforehand and then you get the message, which is more a last straw for you.

18
  • 4
    Your answer exhibits the very kind of intransigence and speculation based on bad-faith assumptions ("presumably more than once") I was trying to call out in my question. No one was trying to "bend them [the rules] a little". My response indicated my willingness to stop, and wanted to start a conversation about how to improve the site (which was probably misplaced, but that's a separate matter)
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 11:25
  • 2
    The problem comes when there are well-received community discussions that juxtapose the current position(s) of the mod team. The waters muddy considerably more when you consider that mklement0's behavior was once the recommended and mod-team-endorsed behavior on the site. So while maybe engaging in discourse about the issue within modmail may have been the wrong place to do it, it's not like there were no grounds for refutation considering the history of this particular rule.
    – codewario
    Commented Apr 19, 2022 at 13:57
  • 3
    It is not true that this was previously the moderator team's endorsed behavior... The author of that Meta post was never a moderator.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 20, 2022 at 4:57
  • 3
    @CodyGray You literally said the opposite yesterday. Maybe it wasn't endorsed and you misspoke, but clearly there is a disconnect between the moderators position and what was previously considered acceptable behavior. No, OP shouldn't have used the mod message to argue their case, but it's unfortunate the mod team doesn't understand why the mod teams reaction to the initial comments is surprising to several community members.
    – codewario
    Commented Apr 20, 2022 at 12:14
  • @BendertheGreatest I think Cody meant that Ben's answer has never been or should have been used as an indicator of what the mod team endorses and rather used to be what community at large considers to be an acceptable caveat.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Apr 20, 2022 at 12:21
  • 2
    "The site, in form of moderators, dictate the rules and you need to comply or leave the site." - no they enforce the rules, the site owners dictate them (or did so a long time ago, anyway). But since this is a community driven site, we all enforce the rules. Some just enforce a few more.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 20, 2022 at 12:50
  • 5
    What Oleg said, @Bender. My initial comment was not meant to imply that the mod team previously endorsed this policy, only that it got highly voted on Meta because users thought it was a good idea, and it at least did have some justification that could be offered in its favor way back in 2014. Aside from that, what the mod team finds surprising is how an answer that says "It's okay…once" can be taken to justify a user posting hundreds if not thousands of such comments over the span of a couple of years. That's unreasonable noise. So far, these are the only cases where we've sent warnings.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 3:00
  • @CodyGray, since we're in the weeds: my behavior, which did span years, was completely unrelated to any Meta discussions: I rarely participate on Meta, and on the few occasions I have, I have found it to be a toxic place - this case being no exception. I acted on what made sense to me: compensating for what I perceive to be glaring lack of guidance provided to new users by the site itself; and it's becoming increasingly clear to me that I am not alone in this assessment. But, let's not forget: this isn't what this post is about.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 3:08
  • 1
    So…@mklement0, I appreciate your perspective to some extent, and I think there may have been some good come out of this discussion (see, e.g., this comment). I want to say, personally, that I am sorry for how the message(s) resonated with you and that you were offended by the tone and/or presentation. That was not anyone's intention, I can assure you. Part of the reason I think this Meta discussion got derailed is because you came out swinging against mods, and not only us mods but some members of the community get defensive about that
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 3:13
  • 2
    We are all humans, we do get frustrated (even though we probably shouldn't), we do misjudge situations (sometimes out of pure ignorance, other times out of being rushed, other times because of unrelated personal issues, or any other of dozens of reasons). So we're certainly not above criticism. On the other hand, your post implied that we have no accountability (which isn't true) and it made some pretty sweeping assertions, of the same kind that you responded negatively to yourself when they were made about/to you. Of course, you've learned something, too, so all good in the end.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 3:16
  • @CodyGray, I truly appreciate the constructive engagement. As for users being naïve about moderator messages: I certainly am, despite having been around for a long time, so TylerH's suggestion about focused canned follow-up messages makes perfect sense to me. And, poignantly, his point about "if something's in the side bar, it's as good as not there", applies to the subject matter of the debate here: New users aren't actively guided to the behavior that benefits the community at large.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 3:25
  • 2
    @CodyGray, while I can appreciate the sentiment behind "I am sorry for how the message(s) resonated with you", it doesn't acknowledge that the second message - not the original form letter - was a blatantly cantankerous and personal attack. I have taken responsibility for potentially having triggered such a response with the abrasive packaging of my arguments, but that doesn't excuse the response. So, in this particular case, I see no accountability.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 3:26
  • 1
    I meant the second message, not the first one. There's nothing whatsoever in the first one that could possibly be apologized for. The frustration at feeling like our message was not being received (and, in fact, was being contested) that came out in the second one is what I meant to apologize for. I continue to see nothing of the sort which you have continually claimed in the second message (unprofessional, personal attack, etc.), although I am willing to allow for the fact that it was framed in such a way that made you feel attacked, and that is what I meant to apologize for. @mklement0
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Apr 21, 2022 at 4:12
  • 1
    @mklement0 I'm gonna give my personal verdict here and call the issue closed: I can guess who the mod is that contacted you and he's a soft-spoken, gentle, considerate, friendly, "they don't get no better" kind of guy. In 3 years of participating on SO I've seen him be discourteous exactly twice (and that was recently) so it's once in a blue moon. Why am I saying this? Because I've had the pleasure of chatting with these folks on a colloquial level and I don't think the mod that messaged is doing himself -or you- justice. This whole thing comes across as so uncharacteristic it's unreal...
    – bad_coder
    Commented Apr 24, 2022 at 16:00
  • 2
    Re the inappropriate response, @bad_coder: Thanks, I appreciate the background information. Seemingly, my initial response struck a personal nerve. I've taken responsibility for my (comparatively small, in my estimation) part in this; I hope he does for his, at least privately, so it won't happen again. I agree that even the canned message reveals a problematic stance toward the issue, with two worrisome manifestations: (a) faulting users for violating a dogmatic, seemingly never announced as such rule, and (b), showing indifference toward guiding new users toward productive behavior.
    – mklement0
    Commented Apr 25, 2022 at 1:50

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