Timeline for Personal attack by a moderator, with no accountability [closed]
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
56 events
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Nov 13, 2022 at 22:44 | comment | added | Peter Mortensen | Referenced during the 2022 moderator election process (near "mod apology"). | |
Apr 29, 2022 at 20:40 | history | edited | user5349916 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Keep me out of that thing...
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Apr 29, 2022 at 20:12 | history | edited | mklement0 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Apr 27, 2022 at 0:10 | history | left closed in review |
Arun Vinoth PrecogTechnologies Robert Longson John Montgomery |
Original close reason(s) were not resolved | |
Apr 26, 2022 at 18:01 | comment | added | mklement0 | @BSMP, it was never just about me and my answers, hence the general guidance that my comments provided - the bigger picture here is that this guidance should be provided automatically. The "fine, I'll stop" came from my agreeing that it shouldn't be I (or any particular user) providing this guidance. As my answer explains, I can now see why they didn't trust this declaration of intent to comply, but "could have been nicer" amounts to down-playing the blatantly personally attack that followed - just like Cerbrus' answer did. | |
Apr 26, 2022 at 17:37 | comment | added | BSMP | Your response does sound like you think you’re entitled to having your answers accepted. They could have been nicer about it but I think it explains why your “fine, I’ll stop” sounds insincere. | |
Apr 26, 2022 at 14:17 | review | Reopen votes | |||
Apr 27, 2022 at 0:10 | |||||
Apr 26, 2022 at 14:13 | history | closed |
Cerbrus nbk Dave JMP undetected Selenium |
Not suitable for this site | |
Apr 26, 2022 at 6:49 | review | Close votes | |||
Apr 26, 2022 at 14:12 | |||||
Apr 25, 2022 at 18:10 | history | edited | mklement0 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Apr 22, 2022 at 15:48 | vote | accept | mklement0 | ||
Apr 21, 2022 at 3:39 | history | edited | mklement0 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Apr 21, 2022 at 3:10 | history | edited | mklement0 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Apr 21, 2022 at 2:35 | comment | added | mklement0 | @CodyGray, I've elaborated on my accountability in the answer I've just added - which also refocuses this post on what it was about to begin with: moderator accountability. | |
Apr 21, 2022 at 2:33 | comment | added | mklement0 | Thanks, @akrun - I empathize. While I that is very much worthy of discussion, this post's original intent was to focus on moderator conduct only - please see the answer I've just added. | |
Apr 21, 2022 at 2:30 | answer | added | mklement0 | timeline score: -19 | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 17:17 | comment | added | akrun | @mklement0 couple of months back, I asked a similar question and I didn't get a clear answer. Some said I requested/shared this SO link in at least 4% of my comments and it is not helpful. Anyway, I no longer request/share the links. I find some of the newbies don't know about the whole accept mechanisms and leave the post as it is. Maybe that is what the mods wanted | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 21:38 | comment | added | mklement0 | @TylerH, I wasn't suggesting that it is required - I was thinking of framing it as "voluntary, (if appropriate in a given case) but encouraged for reasons that hopefully make sense once explained". Required vs. optional (which could be read as: "do it if you feel like it") is not a helpful dichotomy. Of course what I personally think is right has no immediate bearing on anything, but that it is at odds with the status quo is not the end, but the start of a future(!) discussion, to see if a potentially better shared understanding can be reached - that is what meta is for, after all. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 21:25 | comment | added | TylerH | Whether you think it should be this way is up to you, but what you think should be is a separate matter from what is. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 21:24 | comment | added | TylerH | @mklement0 Accepting is--and always has been--optional; this is a simple matter of fact. You can ask a question, and the system does not require that you accept an answer after one or more have been created. If it were required, you would have a time limit before the system auto-accepted the highest-scored one, or the system would allow others (moderators, trusted users, answerers... doesn't matter) to select the "accepted" answer (like Microsoft's various Q&A forums). | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 20:55 | comment | added | mklement0 | Thanks, @TylerH. As hinted at in my update, I can now see my part in the escalation, due to the imperious way my asides were presented. Yet that doesn't justify the behavior that followed. As for the substance of the issue (whose discussion seemingly cannot be avoided here): I strongly disagree with characterizing accepting answers as "something that is, after all, completely optional" (in the form letter) and later "No, because the current system is more than effective enough. Accepting answers is fully optional, and not even that important." - I'll address that in a separate post. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 20:26 | comment | added | TylerH | I can sympathize a little bit; "Frankly, reading your reply to this message gives the impression that you have developed quite some entitlement complex" is inappropriate in an official response from a moderator. I would expect that from an inexperienced smaller site, perhaps, but not Stack Overflow. That being said, the moderator is correct on all the relevant points... and it's an unfortunate truth that responding to moderator messages is about as effective as yelling into the void (to be clear I did not read beyond your initial reply in the transcript). | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 10:57 | answer | added | nbk | timeline score: -27 | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 7:53 | comment | added | mklement0 | @CodyGray (I've also updated the question): It's time for me to be accountable: My first response was not as neutral as I believed it to be, so I can now see my part in this escalation. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 7:51 | history | edited | mklement0 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Apr 19, 2022 at 7:32 | comment | added | Cerbrus | Which cody explained, and you responded to with "I still think my initial response is unambiguous". | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 7:30 | comment | added | mklement0 | @Cerbrus, it's just a disagreement on this aspect, and I'm certainly neither disputing Cody's perception and, as stated, can see how moderators in general would read this differently. So, yes, I guess my voicing that my perception is still different wasn't necessary. Again, the main concern is the tone and wording of the response. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 7:21 | comment | added | Cerbrus | "I still think my initial response is unambiguous" You're doing the same thing here, mate... Cody is telling you how your response is perceived. You may not agree, but that really doesn't matter. Your response resulted in the sterner mod message. That's on you, and you alone. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 7:12 | comment | added | mklement0 | @CodyGray, I worded my previous comment here poorly: I meant to say that the larger problem that we could move on to tackling is the lack of guidance provided to newcomers after asking questions. I now see that my providing this guidance in the form of comments is not the right thing to do, but I think this guidance is sorely needed. I still think my initial response is unambiguous; while I can appreciate how seasoned moderators may suspect something different, again, my concern is the tone and wording of the response. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 7:02 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | In fact, that is precisely the point: your reply to the mod message suggested that you did not think your behavior was the problem, and you continue to suggest as such, which means that the initial mod message did not have the desired effect, which was to advise you that your behavior was problematic and needed to stop, with no exceptions. When users refuse to listen to moderators and reply with excuses that attempt to justify their behavior, the replies tend to get sterner. I still don't see anything wrong with the tone and wording, other than that you disagree with its characterization. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 7:02 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | I very much disagree; no matter how many times I re-read your message, I do not see it as fundamentally agreeing to stop the discussed behavior. Rather, I see it as an attempt to re-litigate what a moderator had already told you, in no uncertain terms, to stop. Again, I'll allow that this impression is colored by the type of replies that we generally receive from users to moderator messages, as well as the fact that a mod message reply is not the right place to start a general, unrelated discussion. But, yes, we fundamentally disagree that the problem was not your behavior. It was. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 6:52 | comment | added | mklement0 | And to be clear, @CodyGray: Even if the perception was that my commitment to stop was ambiguous, unclear, ... and that an explicit follow-up was therefore needed, it is the tone and wording of the follow-up at hand that is at issue. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 6:48 | answer | added | Cerbrus | timeline score: 43 | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 6:45 | comment | added | mklement0 | @CodyGray, I quoted that part because it mattered most; also note that it concluded my response (aside from asking about improvements). There was no belligerence in my initial response - only arguments you may disagree with, and they were all in service to highlighting the real problem, which isn't my behavior (again, you may disagree). Fair enough that it wasn't the right place to start this discussion - telling me that would have helped, instead of the vitriol that ensued. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 6:44 | comment | added | yivi | @CodyGray As a general rule, replies like this are best ignored, IMO, not engaged. When warning a user about undesirable conduct, there are two possible outcomes: they stop that behavior, or they don't. If they don't stop, additional steps may be required, and they were already adequately warned by the first canned message. If they do change their behavior, then the response to the warning becomes irrelevant. But in any case, if one chooses to reply, one should try to be extra careful in replying in a way that would help reach a peaceful resolution to the matter. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 6:31 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | A moderator message reply is not an appropriate place to "start a dialog about properly solving the perceived problem". A moderator message reply like that, in our experience, strongly suggests that a user did not take our initial message seriously and has no plans to actually stop what they have been requested to stop. There is no evidence of contrition, only a belligerent posture that you were correct to have been doing so all along due to perceived failures in the system. Whether that was your specific intention, I can't say; only provide context of what has been our consistent experience | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 6:30 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | @yivi I might agree with you if mklement0's reply has consisted exclusively (or nearly so) of what he saw fit to quote here: "Fair enough, I'll stop". However, the bulk of his reply consisted of reasons why he disagreed with the initial message, which served to almost completely undermine (or at least carve out exceptions to) the indication that he would stop. At that point, a reply is almost required, if for no other reason than to avoid giving the signal of a moderator's acquiescence to or agreement with the objections/exceptions raised in the reply. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 6:27 | comment | added | mklement0 | I appreciate your levelheaded comments, @yivi. Re accountability: fair enough, perhaps this post here is all that is needed, possibly serving as a reference point for users with similar complaints in the future. I agree that the closing lines are the primary problem, but a belligerent and condescending attitude permeates the whole response. Indeed the response was the escalation, given that I had promised to stop, and, in good faith, had tried to start a dialog about properly solving the perceived problem my behavior at issue had tried to address. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 6:01 | comment | added | yivi | Regarding "accountability", meh. Anonymity is there because we need it, because humans. For mod accountability, we already have meta and raising additional flags. The system is not perfect, but maybe it does not need to be either. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 6:00 | comment | added | yivi | The canned message was perfect. The follow-up, less so, and was probably best left out altogether. I believe the crux of the matter lies on the closing lines, which seem to me ill-advised in a couple of ways. But all in all, the whole message could have been avoided. Nothing new was brought to bear, and the message was not helpful in deescalating (or simply avoiding escalation) of the situation. Around here, we often repeat the importance of "moving on" when encountering disagreement. I think that the mod reply reads like a failure in that regard. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 4:41 | comment | added | chivracq | My 2cts, but the "Mechanism" mentioned in "I stated that I was unaware that a mechanism already existed (I've never seen it) and that, given my experience with the results of posting my comments, the existing mechanism strikes me as inadequate, and inquired whether improvements were underway." has definitely not/never been implemented for the small Tag (imacros) I answer, ah-ah...! Once every 3 months I get a User accepting an Answer... (I usually make +[50-70]-Rep per year, depending on "good"/"bad" years, ah-ah...!) | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 4:26 | history | edited | mklement0 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Apr 19, 2022 at 4:10 | history | edited | mklement0 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Apr 19, 2022 at 3:55 | history | edited | Cody GrayMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
I took the liberty of updating the link, because (A) the original did not include proper blockquote formatting, making it difficult to read, and (B) this is now an on-site link that won't ever become unavailable/inaccessible.
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Apr 19, 2022 at 3:37 | comment | added | mklement0 | @HenryEcker, understood re anonymity - as stated, I'm not looking to identify a particular moderator, but I do hope for accountability - and I have no easy answer; looking for a solution together has to start with a shared understanding that something went awry, and that seems to be the first stumbling block. Fair enough for calling out that one quote: I don't think your characterization of the abbreviation changing the connotation is valid, as argued in my previous comment, but I don't think we need to come to an understanding there - all the information is there for others to see. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 3:30 | comment | added | Henry Ecker Mod | Just as a note (and not saying this was part of the accountability you were looking for) but moderator messages were made anonymous due to real life retribution experienced by SE mods due to their actions as a moderator. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 3:28 | comment | added | Henry Ecker Mod | To be clear, I wasn't trying to highlight a specific reason, I was just noting that the way it was quoted changed the connotation of the statement. You present an issue about tone and attitude, but my questions is: what would a resolution look like? Do you have a system for accountability in mind? What mechanism do you think would be reasonable to put in place to ensure the level of professionalism you were expecting? Do you have an actionable request of the mod team or the SO community? | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 3:25 | comment | added | mklement0 | @Tom, to recap from the question: "What this post is not about: Discussing the merits of improving the existing mechanism for encouraging new user to 'do the right thing'" - I don't know how to state it any clearer: this is about the tone and attitude of the response, not about the substance of the argument, which is an entirely separate matter. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 3:20 | comment | added | Tom | How does an accepted answer benefit the whole community? Is this a "when an answer is selected, then the question is solved/done" mindset? If "no", how would the "whole community" benefit? If "yes", would that make sense in an area which keeps evolving and needs constant updates, especially on a site which gives less and less meaning/importance to the fact that an answer has been accepted? | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 3:19 | comment | added | Nick is tired | Meh, other than perhaps the "entitlement complex" comment I think they were civil enough (and even in context that makes sense). You're making this far bigger than it is. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 3:06 | comment | added | mklement0 | @CodyGray, I don't think it's worth focusing on just one of the unprofessional comments highlighted in this post (it was Henry Ecker who happened to call out that particular one). As for your questions: I feel that without a shared understanding that unprofessional conduct has occurred, there is no benefit in continuing this conversation. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 2:55 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | As I gather it, you appear to be most upset that a moderator made the assumption that you knew about the old "accept rate" feature and that you were trying to "bring it back". That was, admittedly, an assumption that the moderator made, in an attempt to try to understand your mindset that accepting answers is necessary/important, and that any reasonable attempt on your part to encourage this is intrinsically good. All of those premises are wrong, so how should we proceed? Just tell you that you are wrong? We try to understand the motivations of users so we can best address their concerns. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 2:53 | comment | added | mklement0 | @HenryEcker, I don't think that is relevant (but it's good to have the full quote now), because (a) I never knew nor do I care whether an accept rate was ever shown publicly and (b) the point is that an unfounded assumption was made that I would know and that that (non-existing) knowledge factored into my behavior. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 2:51 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | Can you describe here what you think is "unprofessional"? It is part of a moderator's job to assess users' motivations in terms of actions they have taken on the site. No one likes being called out, which is why we do it in private, rather than in public. It appears you think it is unprofessional (or even a "gratuitous threat"?) to warn you that future comments of this nature will be deleted on sight, but I don't see how it is either of those. It's an attempt to be clear. If your reply had left it as "Fair enough, I'll stop", as you imply here, there would have been no need for a mod response. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 2:50 | comment | added | Henry Ecker Mod | The way that first quote is presented is a bit selective. The full quote "You've been around long enough to remember that accept rate used to be shown publicly." has a very different connotation to just "You've been around long enough (...)". | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 2:16 | history | asked | mklement0 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |