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I want to talk about taking action in our trying time of The Blog Post. Consider it a plea for sanity.

how about no

Background

I know the problems concerning minority groups are very real even on Stack Overflow. As privileged as I can be I don't feel these on my own skin, so examples have to be explicitly pointed out to me. I'd love to have a Stack Overflow where nobody cares about who or what the other users are.

Now, I think the blog post is the worst thing that could happen in this matter, for the reasons explained in the many meta posts spawned since, such as this and this and this. At first I was glad to see that Stack Overflow is stepping up to Do Something. Then I read the blog post and I got an uneasy feeling. Then eventually I realized that the uneasy feeling is mere cognitive dissonance: I very much agree with making SO better, but mixing post quality into the picture was really out of place. My confusion turned to anger; now I'm just frustrated.

I'm sure I'm not alone with these concerns. There are a lot of kinds of people here, and most of them are probably stirred now, and not for the better.

  1. People such as myself are angry and frustrated because, while we agree with the point on inclusiveness, the possible quality-control implications just make no sense.
  2. A huge chunk of our users are not even aware that the underlying problem is real. And when they see that blog post, many of them will just tick a mental box that someone's being socially oversensitive again, which in the (not-so-)long run will only make the real problem that much worse (see crying wolf and whatnot). This also goes back to point 1.
  3. I suspect the actual population the blog post is trying to help will be much worse off right now. This is a very emotional time for the site (considering the usual professional atmosphere), and I fear every bias will be amplified. I've seen a lot of comments on main arguing about welcomingness. Additional arguing and hate will never solve the problem of welcomingness.

What to do

I hope the aim of the blog post was just to spark discussion (meta-phor remark: sparks are great unless the place and context is bad, such as when there are open gasoline barrels around). So let's do that: talk about the problems. Talk about what problems there are, talk about what problems there aren't, and try to be open to people who occupy a different stance from your own. Let's figure out what the community thinks, and get rid of all the accidental baggage piled up on the problem by the blog post. If we can start talking about the real problem with no distractions (such as the problem of quality control) we may be able to effect change.

What not to do

Please, try not to take action along the lines of the real or perceived message of the blog post. So many people have conflicting interpretations; there's no way you can get it right if you try to follow the perceived guidance.

Only two days after the blog post I saw a bunch of flags in chat that ended up in some Twitter shaming and a meta post. There was a questionably appropriate but completely civil and non-offensive discussion hours before the flagging. The first suggestion in the corresponding meta post was

There is a solution. Let's all flag as spam/offensive. These messages should be removed from the chat forthwith. I'm not judge & jury, but in my opinion, these users should be banned for a week. They have rep to protect, so it matters. It may not be targeted abuse, but trivialising prostitution definitely doesn't fit under "Be Nice".

Uuuuuh yeah. Just step back and realize how excessive this is. I have no reason to believe that this zealous response would have happened without the blog post. Again, this is an emotional time. But we should be aware of this, and not make any rash decisions. Just talk. Change won't happen due to a sudden change forced from high horses. It happens gradually, by making everyone realize what the issue is. The problem isn't going anywhere, so let's just wait until everyone cools down and we can have an objective discussion. Then we can figure out what to do.

tl;dr The blog post was very unfortunate in my opinion. There is a problem, but now it's somehow all worse and we're all angry. Let's just talk before starting to shout at each other on main. Don't cause harm in an attempt to Do Things Right. Witch hunts are bad, Mkay?

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    I think we're on opposite sides of the debate, but no real concrete proposals have been suggested yet. So, if this is an appeal for calm, then yes, agreed. Interestingly, I'm seeing off-site proposals to help new users as a result of the blog post, so perhaps it is having some positive network effects.
    – halfer
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:36
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    @halfer, honest, very naive question: how do you see the "sides" in this debate? My problem with the blog-post is that I see it blurring and conflating issues in a way where I can't infer no sensible "sides" to it.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:38
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    @yivi: I had that reaction when reading the blog post, and I thought the main question on which we've been discussing this made some good points - perhaps conflating beginners and excluded minorities would not work. I'm open to it, but it sounded rather broad. But it strikes me the sides are: folks who are open to co-operating with being more welcoming of new users, and folks who are not. That this appears in the midst of new culture war in the US probably does not help.
    – halfer
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:41
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    @halfer I object to the notion that there are just 2 sides to this debate; most of us would definitely agree on the fundamental points (everyone should be treated fairly and etc.), but the perceived issues and proposed solutions are definitely different.
    – ljedrz
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:43
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    Obnoxiously disrupting the site to Make a Point is not OK, no matter how strongly your feel about the Point or even what the Point is. I wouldn't even use kind entreaties like "let's talk and not shout at each other", but it's nice of you to do so. Feeling that you are indisputably in the right does not, in fact, make passive aggressive trolling OK. It's not like it's the only possibly outlet; there's plenty of meta discussions to participate in. So do so, and if you're getting impatient or frustrated, try taking a step back instead of trying to spread it around. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:46
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    Thanks for your answer @halfer. I asked because precisely I am all for inclusiveness and openness, both in language and in actions. And I'm also completely for quality control and strict (but kind) moderation. And while I believe most of the complaints we get at SO are for the latter; I still think that a lot more could and should be done for the former. Conflating "we are not giving equal opportunities to everyone" (which I agree with) with "let's try be kinder with users when moderating" (which I agree with, but do not believe is necessarily related to the other thing), confuses me a bit.
    – yivi
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:48
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    @jpp I don't mind speaking up against questionable content. That's how you solve problems. But taking excessive actions for some greater good is defeating the purpose of being inclusionary. That's pretty much my point here. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 11:01
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    @jpp: alright, now that I have the context I'm filing this away under "the usual Internet drama". I still have no idea if your comment was sincere or sarcastic, but I don't think it really matters, since 1) there's no obvious relation with the blog post and 2) there seems to a bunch of Personal Beef (tm) going on. There's not really any way anyone comes out of this smelling nice. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 11:06
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    Very well written IMO. I think it's best to avoid "please for sanity" as if the people who are in "the other camp" our insane. The people on the other camp have good intentions and I believe them when they say we have a problem. Note that when community members asked if we could "be nicer" in meta those requests were generally well received. I think this isn't a backlash at inclusivity at all - I think this is about parts of the community feeling isolated, attacked, confused and left out. It's just an unfortunate communications problem at this point if I'm reading it correctly. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:00
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    'unfortunate' well, considering that I have been painted, along with the rest of SO as racist/sexist, that particular epithet is way down my list of appropriate adjectives to apply to that blog. There is problem X, there is problem Y. there are other problems, there will always be problems, and trying to fix one will have a effect on the others. All that can be done is to try and minimize the problems overall. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:34
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    "I'd love to have a Stack Overflow where nobody gives a damn of who or what the other users are" you already mostly do. Sure there are isolated instances and they are immediately handled, as long as this is an open site it will always happen. Many users report never encountering any issues because of their gender meta.stackoverflow.com/a/366816/1398418 meta.stackexchange.com/a/309639/372935 a claim that it's widespread here is quite extraordinary and requires extraordinary evidence so far I have seen none.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:43
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    @Oleg I don't have data and this is beside my point, but if the few-percent minority gets treated badly it can easily seem isolated. And much of the implicit pushback against minorities (in societies in general) is "acceptable" in each step, and only horrible when facing it each day. People using a hostile tone with you once, you shake it off. If you see that all day every day, you're being oppressed. This is not something we in the majority will see. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:50
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    If you don't have data how do you know that a "few-percent minority gets treated badly"?
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:54
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    My opinion here is that SO doesn't have a problem and certainly doesn't have the problems mentioned in that blog ... Community doesn't have to change and it is not suppose to change, hundreds and thousands of developers built this community, for newbies to join they should adapt to community (meaning do a fu***** research), community isn't suppose to adapt to newbies ...
    – Veljko89
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:23
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    If the aim of the blog post were to spark discussion, they wouldn't have disabled comments. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:55

2 Answers 2

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I'm going to humbly interpret this with what I've been thinking/seeing since the blog post went up, and likely condense the point(s) you're making here to something more laconic.

Don't overreact to this.

Discussion is key and important. Now's a good time and opportunity for dialog and less shouting and emotion-based rationality. Let's capitalize on it while we can.

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    That statement of "Don't overreact to this" is so vague that you have to question how much value it adds?.
    – JGallardo
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 23:05
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    @JGallardo: I'd make it more specific, but there's a lot of posts which kind of feel like they're overreacting to the blog post right now...
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 0:14
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    I'm sure the super large font and bold text are deliberately ironic.. Commented May 1, 2018 at 9:12
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    But isn't discussion exactly what has been happening? Dialog is people are making their feelings known, talking with each other, and arguing about the post. Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:06
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    I'm still catching up to reality apparently. My views of Stack Overflow have always been that there was a problem of perceived unfriendliness. That was until Friday. Monday I came into work, opened Stack Overflow with that first cup of coffee of the week and saw a growing number of really emotional meta responses that started to talk about problems having to do with gender, race and background. Consider me really caught off-guard by this shift in problem domain, and therefore pretty stumped.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:16
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    @geometrikal: I still see a lot of overreaction. Some are justifying what they have said in the past; some are blaming the quality of questions; some are blaming the volunteers; some are demanding statistics lest this whole thing remain a hoax. Y'know...overreacting.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:13
-1

How About Yes

Let me tell you a story. I originally came to SO nearly 8 years ago, after relocating halfway around the world and accepting a job as an iOS app developer that someone was crazy (or desperate) enough to offer me even though I had exactly zero experience developing iOS apps. I needed help figuring out how to do basically everything, and I needed it fast. And luckily enough for me, the SO community delivered it in spades.

During the time I spent scouring SO looking for answers to any and every iOS-related question that popped into my head, I noticed that there were a lot of other questions on the site. Questions about Java. Questions about C. Questions about concurrency and multithreading and memory-management. Questions about what this or that cryptic error message actually meant. Questions about things I actually knew and could answer.

So I started writing some answers. It was fun, and it felt good to give back. I was into it. Really into it, even, investing a couple hours of time most nights of the week towards finding questions and contributing answers. I marveled at how successfully SO had gamified Q&A, and how much of a rush it could be to get a sudden flood of +rep for penning a good answer, and at how happy I was to keep contributing answers even after hitting the daily rep cap because even if I'm not gaining points I'm still helping people.

There is a Problem, and it's Here

But then things began to change. Meta went from being an esoteric little aside that was mostly ignored (and/or used to have fun discussions about quirky questions) to an actual thing. Suddenly it wasn't enough for SO to be fun, or useful, or popular; SO needed to be something. SO had a point to prove about how to make the "perfect" Q&A site. SO had to show the world that by coming up with the right rules and enforcing them with authority, utopia was attainable.

Under the guidance of meta pathological behaviors like FGITW were ignored and even encouraged. At the same time, benign things like comments were deemed pathological and a decision was made that "we're going to keep giving people a feature that says 'add a comment' against every question and answer, and we'll just yell at anyone who actually uses it and have mods delete their comments because comments are pathological and the commentators should know better". Because rules, rules solve everything so intelligent UX be damned!

Users were actively encouraged not to help other users but to downvote, close, and delete their questions instead of just answering (or ignoring) and moving on. Because that's how you build the perfect Q&A. Such is the insular brilliance of meta.

And I really despise meta, by the way. It's basically an echo chamber for rules lawyers and pedants to agree with each other and marginalize dissenting views. It's a place where people with an overinflated sense of what SO "is" congregate to stroke each others' egos and refine their vision of what makes the perfect Q&A site. Hell, just look at the OP. "There's no problem here, carry on".

But I digress. The point is, SO gradually became a much less fun, much less helpful, and a much less useful place. I stopped actively contributing years ago because of this.

The blog post is at least a sign that maybe SE, as a company, finally understands that there's a problem. It's mostly correct, and it's the first good news in all too long.

Solving Problems and Learning Stuff

I encourage everyone to think twice before jumping in the trenches to defend a bunch of overzealous rules pedantry that helps basically nothing and actively hinders people from solving problems and learning stuff. I came here to solve problems and learn stuff. And because I got in early enough, I was actually able to succeed at that goal. And then I stayed to help others solve problems and learn stuff, because it felt good to do so. SO wasn't on some ideological death-march in the name of "quality, quality, quality", and it was fine. Better than fine, in fact; it was fun, and welcoming, even exciting at times.

SO doesn't need to prove anything to the world, it just needs to be a place where people who want help can get help, and people who want to give help can find people to help. Every answer that helps even one person learn something new or solve a practical programming problem is a quality answer. SO doesn't need rigorous quality control. Promoting the great answers above the good is Google's job, and they do it very, very well. Let Google do their job.

Don't Shoot the Messenger

And look, I don't want to come off too harshly here. I'm eternally grateful for the help SO has given and continues to give me. I still use the site often, even if I'm nowhere near as active as I once was. SO isn't irredeemable, it isn't broken beyond repair. But SO does have a problem. And the problem isn't that someone finally made a blog post pointing out that SO has a problem.

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    You can substitute "And I really despise what meta has become" if you like. I know what meta was meant to be. Meta appeals more strongly to certain personality types than other; it doesn't attract a representative sample of the user-base, and has become quite insular as a result. My current opinion of meta is based upon my experiences with it over the years, not on some arbitrary whim.
    – aroth
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:03
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    Users who come to meta and complain about the "oppressive" features of Stack Overflow are invariably unaware of the sheer amount of chaff that casual users can create. On Stack Overflow, the problem is so bad that about 40% of questions that people attempt to ask never make it to the front page; they are blocked by software that was written specifically for this purpose. This chaff can and will kill a site if you allow it to.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:11
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    In addition, I dispute the notion that Stack Overflow is a learning site. The hardest possible way to learn software development from scratch is by asking questions on Stack Overflow. Askers who come to Stack Overflow are expected to already have a fundamental grounding in the basics of software development. Very basic questions are a distraction; Stack Overflow caters to enthusiasts and professionals, not beginners. Beginners should be reading books, taking classes and writing code.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:16
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    What are you referring to by "Hell, just look at the OP. "There's no problem here, carry on""? My question above? I can't read it in any other way. But then you are blatantly wrong about what my post is about. Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:29
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    @RobertHarvey You can be a beginner and an enthusiast at the same time. The idea that very basic questions have no place here is techno-snobbery. If you can't bear me answering beginner questions because they are too easy according to some criteria in your mind, one of us is going to have to leave SO.
    – JeremyP
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:39
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    @JeremyP: See here for a representative example. Think very carefully about whether or not you would like to see 50% or more of all questions asked on Stack Overflow's front page look like this. Because before the automated question quality filter was put into place, that's exactly how it was.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:42
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    @RobertHarvey You are conflating bad questions and beginner questions.
    – JeremyP
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:44
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    @JeremyP: There is a very strong correlation between the two. Professionals and enthusiasts don't normally ask overtly bad questions because they have at least a passing awareness that you have to know something about what your asking a professional to answer in order to formulate a reasonable question in the first place.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:45
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    @RobertHarvey They are still not the same thing. Stop conflating them. And, by the way, you should also assume the "primary benefit" that you get from the site is the same as the primary benefit that others get nor assume that your primary benefit overrides the primary benefit of others.
    – JeremyP
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:51
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    @AndrasDeak - Yes, precisely about your question. The one in which you describe the blog post as "very unfortunate" and urge people "not to take action along the lines of the real or perceived message of the blog post". Even though the basic message of the blog post is simply 'be more welcoming'. It is a call to action, and a pretty benign one at that. However you encourage people to ignore that call and replace it with (almost certainly go-nowhere) discussions on meta instead. That's essentially saying "There is no problem, carry on" IMO.
    – aroth
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 22:49
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    @RobertHarvey Yes, these notions about what SO is or is not are quite entrenched. I don't think they're useful. SO is whatever its users want it to be. And by "users" I mean "all of them", not just "the ones who eventually filter over to meta". Though you're right, of course having a grounding in CS fundamentals is useful and it would be nigh impossible to acquire via SO alone. But if you have that, you can certainly use SO to help learn new aspects of the trade. Does that make SO a "learning site"? I don't think it matters.
    – aroth
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 22:54
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    And what does the automated question filter have to do with anything here? I don't think there was any suggestion in the blog post that the automated question filter is the thing that's unwelcoming and in need of change. It wasn't speaking to (or of) the filter. The filter is what it is, and if it's removing a bunch of completely incoherent nonsense then good for it. If anything, the fact that an effective automated filter exists is an argument for going easier on the manual moderation of things that pass the filter.
    – aroth
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 22:59
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    @JeremyP You can be a beginner and an enthusiast at the same time. Enthusiasm is a precondition for being helped -- if I don't care enough about my problem to make some effort to solve it, what motivation should someone else have to solve it for me? And after the answerer has invested effort in helping the non-enthusiastic, he is liable to turn around and not use the answer just as a result of general apathy; better to invest in those who are enthusiastic. OTOH a beginner who is enthusiastic is not going to remain a beginner for long -- he'll read the documentation from top to bottom, ...
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 11:34
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    @JeremyP Even if we don't conflate beginner and bad questions, having 1000 questions about how to write a for loop makes it much harder to find the other more advanced questions, when the beginner's needs could have been answered by reading the documentation or easily gleaning the information from sources other than SO.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 11:40
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    @ZevSpitz What do you mean even if we don't conflate. Why is conflating beginner and bad even considered? And I disagree with you about the difficulty of finding questions. For one thing many of the 1,000 questions will be closed as duplicates. Furthermore, there is this thing called Google which I use all the time and generally finds the question I want with very little noise. SO is either a Q and A site for programmers of all levels or it is a shrine for advanced programming. I'm here to help people of all abilities fix their programming problems not construct some bullshit ivory tower.
    – JeremyP
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 14:54

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