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In Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming. It’s Time for That to Change., Jay says this:

Let’s make it easier for new users to succeed. No, I’m not shifting the blame. We set them up for failure, and our power users have been asking us to help them for ages. We’re planning to test a new “beginner” ask page that breaks the question box into multiple fields – one for each of the key things answerers need to help:

  • “What did you want to happen?”
  • “What actually happened? (Include any error details)”
  • “Paste the shortest block of code that reproduces the problem. (We’ll format it!)”
  • “Describe what you’ve tried so far (including searches, etc.)”

What's described here is like the previously tested question template (see: What can we put in a question template to help people ask better questions? and Have we started trying question templates?) only, presumably, with less ability to opt out: you could at least hit CTRL+A and delete the inline question template, but by the sounds of it, this new beginners' /ask page will actually break up the form into multiple text fields so that new askers will have no choice but to contort their questions into the format provided.

As I, and others, have been arguing since a debugging template first got floated in October (e.g. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6), pushing a debugging-specific template as the question template is a bad idea, since:

  1. Not all (or even most) valid questions can be reasonably contorted into a debugging question (let alone benefit from the contortion).
  2. There is little reason to think that debugging questions, as a category, tend to be better quality than other kinds of questions. And there's significant reason to think the opposite: not a single one of our top 50 questions by score is a debugging question. As such, presenting a debugging template, even as a default from which the user can opt out, sends a message about what kind of questions are well-received here that seems to be the opposite of reality.

Imposing such a template as a default, implemented through initial text in the Ask box, is bad enough; I'm opposed even to doing that, and from the number of votes I've seen cast on the previous comments I've linked to here, I think the community is on my side on that. But what's proposed now - replacing the single textbox with a multipart form that a user can only sensibly complete if they're asking a debugging question - is drastically worse, and signals to me that nobody at Stack Exchange has listened to any of the objections we've raised since October or made any effort to address them.

Much of the discussion since Jay's blog post has focused on the ways in which the company's values and the community's are not aligned. So be it. But this proposal serves neither group's objectives; if you do this, the first thing confronting new users who arrive with non-debugging questions will be a form that does not permit them to ask the question they want to ask. That is a clear signal that they have come to wrong place, and is the opposite of making the site more welcoming. Please don't do it.

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    I don't see why a 'Not a Debugging Question' button could not dismiss the form. That, along with some visual flag that the question is not about debugging, would be fine? Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:24
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    ' And there's significant reason to think the opposite: not a single one of our top 50 questions by score is a debugging question' sure, but what about the bottom 3 million? Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:26
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    Why would you expect questions posed by new users to be anything like the top questions? Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:29
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    @MartinJames I certainly concede the possibility that non-debugging questions make up both the majority of our best questions and the majority of our crappest ones. But even if that's true, I stand by my conclusion; the philosophy of Optimising For Pearls, Not Sand, as I always understood it, is that we're meant to shape our tooling, policies, and culture in a way that maximises the rate at which we produce high-quality artifacts, rather than merely minimising the rate at which we produce low-quality ones.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 21:33
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    @KennyEvitt: "Why would you expect questions posed by new users to be anything like the top questions?" Just because a user is new to SO doesn't mean they're new to programming. New users should not be assumed to lack knowledge. And therefore, new users are just as capable of asking good questions as old users. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:09
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    When in the world SO is become a debug service ? That really make me sad.
    – Stargateur
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 23:07
  • @Stargateur: Since a couple of years ago? Honestly, I had similar objections when the question templates were first suggested, but by now it's starting to seem more like just a case of adapting the UI to fit the actual usage. I honestly wonder if it might not be better to accept that SO has de facto turned into Debugging.SE already, and that the actually interesting new questions have moved over to Software Engineering and Computer Science. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 23:09
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    @IlmariKaronen: I think it really depends on what tags you're looking in. For things like JavaScript and PHP, I'm sure it's just debug-mai-cod3z in there. But in the OpenGL tag (for example), we get quite a few questions that aren't just "my code doesn't work". Commented May 1, 2018 at 0:22
  • @NicolBolas Agree what you are saying but when you beginner doesn't have a slightest idea about what is happening on the site since they are new users. They are capable asking good questions, but how to ask it that they might not be knowing. Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:11
  • @NicolBolas I think your attitude towards a few tags and response which could be interpreted as mocking are part of the reason why some users feel unwelcome on SO. Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:44
  • @NicolBolas I'm not, nor is anyone else, refusing to allow new users to ask good questions. That they largely don't tho seems pretty uncontroversial. I'm pretty sure too that most users don't ask any questions, regardless of their programming knowledge. Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:26
  • Why not? the most common questions can be solved by debugging, if we have a new question wizard that guides the user to debug, we may be able to prevent a lot of questions from even being asked.
    – Kevin B
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 22:06
  • @IlmariKaronen I would suggest that a debugging question per se -- My code is doing something wrong ; I haven't been able to figure out why using some of the tools available to me. - is not inherently invalid on SO. There are always tools available -- e.g. I could reverse engineer the underlying host / runtime in assembly -- and the OP could theoretically always be held accountable for not using every tool in his arsenal. The sentiment behind "SO is not a debug service", is that it appears the OP hasn't used the commonly accepted set of tools at his disposal for the problem domain, ...
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 11:07
  • ... be it IDE compiler warnings, debugger, logs, hex editor, or butterfly -- and is expecting the members of the community to expend that reasonable effort, when in the end the issue might be something entirely different.
    – Zev Spitz
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 11:07
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    @ZevSpitz: I don't disagree; debugging questions in general (i.e. "I have this code that should do A, but it does B. How do I fix it?") have always been on-topic at SO. What I've observed over the last few years is that those questions have effectively crowded out everything else, to the point where questions that don't conform to this pattern are increasingly getting closed as "too broad" or "lacks MCVE". Questions like, say, stackoverflow.com/q/927358 or stackoverflow.com/q/231767 or stackoverflow.com/q/79923 would most likely get closed in minutes if asked today. Commented May 3, 2018 at 13:05

2 Answers 2

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We (Team DAG) are going to be going over the latest prototype of the Ask a Question wizard this Friday, so this discussion is timely. The exact mechanism hasn't been nailed down, but I've been working with the premise that the wizard is:

  1. optional,
  2. experimental and
  3. extensible.

Askers, even new users, should have an option to skip the wizard altogether. The default effect will make the easiest option the most commonly used, however. One option would be to force users to pick from either the freeform text box or a wizard that matches their question type. Alternatively, we might discover via experimentation that a debugging template really should be the default because it's so helpful in producing better questions. As you might expect, we'll be checking in on meta as this project proceeds.

I've long had a problems with the way question variety has been chiseled away from the site. (That's part of what prompted this question.) If we measure success by question score and whether they are closed, I'm confident we'll eventually optimize for a template for debugging questions. It's just a lot easier to make a snap judgement about whether a problem is well-presented when the problem is "I have a bug in my code". For that matter, it's a lot easier to build a template for those sorts of questions.

That said, I'm hopeful we'll be able to extend the wizard to cover other sorts of questions. This will be necessary to use the system on other Stack Exchange sites, Enterprise and Teams. When we did the initial template system, I created half a dozen templates to test. For simplicity of experimentation, we only used one. But I can easily imagine configuring the system to cover other types of questions than debugging.

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    This is extremely reassuring to read. It sounds like you have a clear grasp of the possible failure modes of optimising for simple metrics (simply maximising % of positive-score, non-closed questions may not be a real win if it comes at the expense of question diversity), have no intention of making the templates/wizards mandatory, and are already plotting to extend the system to an array of different question types - in other words, that all my fears are unfounded. Crack on, and good luck.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 23:37
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    This. Sorry for the oversimplification in the blog post.
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 0:10
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    Ok, this is reassuring. It upsets me that so many regulars have such a debugging focus to the point where they demand a MCVE for questions that wouldn't benefit from one, so I was afraid that the template would reinforce that.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:01
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    I think at minimum a guided search to find duplicates / existing answers as a distinct step is an absolute win. People forget that the duplicate problem becomes exponentially harder as the question corpus grows; now as a question asker you're traversing a field with not just hundreds of potential land mines, but thousands, perhaps millions. Believe me, I knew we had it easy in 2010 (with regards to dupes, at least) and a very difficult reckoning was coming much later. Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:18
  • also formatting it as "have you included relevant code?" step doesn't seem that dangerous to me. Surely most questions on SO involve code, in some way? And a question without any code at all would be kind of strange on a site about code, isn't it? Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:22
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    @JeffAtwood "And a question without any code at all would be kind of strange on a site about code, isn't it?" - nope, not at all. Here's a handful from the top 10 highest-voted questions of all time: stackoverflow.com/q/927358/1709587, stackoverflow.com/q/477816/1709587, stackoverflow.com/q/179123/1709587, stackoverflow.com/q/111102/1709587. I hear that some chap called Jeff Atwood even asked at least one.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:05
  • Great. Maybe an idea would be to start with the simple question "Do you have a problem with some code you're writing", and go on to the debugging template if yes. Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:03
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    @JeffAtwood Not at all. None of my top 6 questions contain any code (unless you count naming a function or reserved word). Actually hardly any of mine do at all. Especially ones about Git, or particular language features. Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:07
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    I think the lack of variety of questions is an interesting point. Some of the close reasons get in the way of that. For example if you ask "How do I do this?" it is okay, but if you ask "What is the best way to do this?" people will start down voting as opinion and if you ask "Are there any good libraries to do this?" it is down voted as asking for recommendations. Which first means that changing a few words makes it acceptable but probably more often just closes questions for which good answers would be useful. I fee it is Jeopardy-like focus on form not content.
    – Elin
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:21
  • @Elin: But those are different questions. The answer to "Are there any good libraries to do this" is to list libraries (or just "Yes/No"). Words mean what they say they mean, and the literal intent of a question is all people have to go on. If a question asks for libraries, and you provide some random code instead of a library like was asked for, that is not an answer and should be downvoted. Commented May 1, 2018 at 13:30
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    I'm with @Elin w.r.t. her first comment here - it's a point I've been making since 2014. Sure, "How do I X?", "What library can I use to X?" and "What is the bestest purtiest way to X?" may be technically different when read extremely literally, but I think that in practice they're usually exactly equivalent. That I want the "best" way is usually implicit, and people neither refrain from posting libraries because none was explicitly asked for nor refrain from posting solutions with built-ins because the asker asked for a library.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:44
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    @NicolBolas "If a question asks for libraries, and you provide some random code instead of a library like was asked for, that is not an answer and should be downvoted" - I disagree. If you asked for a library, but I adequately solve your problem with "some random code", then (assuming that it really does adequately solve your problem) that means you've asked an XY question and I've correctly recognised that. "Must be done specifically with a third-party library even if the language has a built-in function to do the same thing" is not an actual requirement in real-world situations.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:46
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    @MarkAmery that's fair, but surely a "my question doesn't require code" checkbox on that step would suffice? The reminder to THINK about whether you need code to communicate your question properly is the important bit. Commented May 1, 2018 at 21:34
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    @JeffAtwood No objection to that from me. It's only compelling users (either in the hard sense of having text fields that they can't submit without filling in, or in the softer sense of presenting the ask page in a manner that implies that a lack of code is a rule violation) to always provide code that I'd have a problem with.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 21:37
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    @Elin: Very early on, I noticed people focused on the form of questions rather than their substance. It confused me for a long time until I read Thinking, Fast and Slow. Now I'm convinced close voters use heuristics to sort questions quickly. The trouble is we can all agree that "I have a problem with my code" is a reasonable question to ask here (though many of those have further problems). We can't agree that other types of questions belong and so we're slowly cutting them out of our diet. This is also the reason for salad.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 22:13
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I shared my opinion on questions templates when the idea was being pitched, and I've gotta say, it hasn't changed in the slightest as evidenced by this concern.

While I tacitly and succinctly agree with you on the points you're making, I do want to pause for a bit of unnecessary hysteria and panic here. It feels like the blog post has caused a lot of disquiet on Meta and has people kind of up-in-arms on how to interpret it and what new policy has to come from Meta to make it happen. I wish people wouldn't overreact so hard.

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    "It feels like the blog post has caused a lot of disquiet on Meta" No, it hasn't. It has released a lot of disquiet that has been building up. It's the match that caused a room full of methane to explode. That is, lots of long-time users feel that SE is antagonistic towards them and their needs. The blog merely solidifies this position in their minds. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:10
  • @NicolBolas: I mean disquiet in the sense of "a call to arms" - disproportionately so in the sense that gosh, a lot of discussions are happening on Meta, mostly heated and passionate - although you're probably right.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:12

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