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What sort of package management questions would be on-topic for Stack Overflow? Clearly some questions must be since SO has both a tag for package managers, and tags for package management tools such as dpkg, apt, yum, yampkg, homebrew, et al.


Background:

Moderator Martijn Pieters's given reason for putting For any Linux Distro's packaging system, find the maximum number of simultaneously installable packages on hold was:

"Questions about general computing hardware and software are off-topic for Stack Overflow unless they directly involve tools used primarily for programming. You may be able to get help on Super User." – Martijn Pieters

In the comments he explains:

There is no programming problem here, nor would a software developer need to be able to know this information in order to develop software, a package management system is not a tool in that sense.

Presumably Martijn did his best to make some excellent points, which unfortunately are not clearly expressed: i.e. "in that sense" is vague, "need to be able" implies such SO questions should be about things necessary for developers, the Q seems unsolvable without some programming, etc.

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  • 7
    The existence of a tag doesn't mean that questions about that concept are necessarily on topic.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 14:50
  • 2
    Looking through that tag, I see a lot of questions about things like npm, which are on-topic, but a lot more questions that would probably be better asked on SU or the Linux site. The tag itself is probably too broad, and should maybe be removed in favor of more specific tags. Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 15:00
  • 7
    "in that sense" means in the sense that we define the types of tools that are on-topic in the Help Center, i.e., those commonly used by programmers. "need to be able to know" means exactly what it says. I don't see any ESL problems. Rather than insulting Martijn's language skills, could you instead make some arguments about why you think package management questions are on-topic for Stack Overflow? They don't seem programming-related to me on first blush, either. They are not tools specific to programming. You might be happier asking about them on Unix & Linux.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 15:15
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    @CodyGray, The tools are commonly used by programmers who are also package developers, and also is of interest to programmers who are users of suck packages. Since finding the max installable packages on a given system requires programming to answer, it is therefore a programming question.
    – agc
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 18:27
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    Related meta.stackoverflow.com/q/320577/792066
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 18:47
  • 3
    Why do you keep writing "SE"? What should that be? Stack Everflow? If you mean Stack Exchange, when I wonder if you know that Stack Exchange has over 100 sub sites, including Stack Overflow. So asking if a programming question is on-topic on Stack Exchange makes no sense.
    – Tom
    Commented Aug 9, 2017 at 15:27
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    @Tom, Sorry, that's one of my recurring typos. It's impossible to correct comment typos in place, currently the only option is to delete and and repost, which would lose the comment order and time stamps.
    – agc
    Commented Aug 9, 2017 at 15:38
  • 2
    That shouldn't prevent you from updating your question ;P.
    – Tom
    Commented Aug 9, 2017 at 15:44

2 Answers 2

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There's some overlap between package managers and developers, but that overlap is very, very small.

In the context of the linked question, effectively it's asking a question that a sysadmin or someone who has to maintain packages for a living would either know, or be able to guide one towards an answer to.

Martijn's comment is flawless:

...There is no programming problem here, nor would a software developer need to be able to know this information in order to develop software, a package management system is not a tool in that sense.

The point he's getting at is simple. A software developer wouldn't need to know that kind of request in order for them to do their job, so it wouldn't fit on Stack Overflow. A sysadmin would probably know this, so Unix and Linux is an ideal fit. The above there is a rather useful heuristic for topicality.

Nowadays, I'm not entirely clear myself on which are okay to be on-topic; while it's easy to identify blatantly off-topic questions, those that are a bit grayer are a bit harder to reliably categorize, since I've seen it go both ways. A question like this for example is indicative of one I'd consider on-topic, since installing the JDK on Linux is something every Java developer conceptually understands how to do, and even moreso with Webupd8's wonderful repositories. I'd say, so long as you follow the heuristic - would a dev need to know this - you'll be doing alright.

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  • This answer is logically valid, but it demands accepting two extremist premises: 1) SE is only for questions about programming on the job. (SE also contains student questions, and theoretical questions.) 2) Supposing premise #1 was true, that either a) SE is only for the most common work-based problems; (obscure problems and corner-cases are a staple here), or that b) we can predict with certainty that no paying job can ever require knowing this; (unknown -- many useful engineering objects sprout from idle games and curiosities.).
    – agc
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 18:45
  • Re JDK: Now suppose the Q Martjin disapproves of was rephrased to use only JDK tools, with an intro about how the author is required to conduct an arms race with a rival firm, each of whom is using feature count as a selling point and metric, therefore each wants to install the maximum number of packages possible. What then?
    – agc
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 19:03
  • You don't have to be a professional programmer to know that a programmer isn't going to have a clue about how to wield apt in specific ways. You also don't have to be doing professional work to ask a question here. You've made quite a quantum leap with your assumptions here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:13
  • To your example, I'd personally close the question for it being too broad. If it wasn't too broad, I would edit out the arms race since that's not material to answering the question, and if it were about specific JDK tools being used specifically to develop an application, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The JDK doesn't have the same concepts or nuances as apt (and I'm not sure modules will add it in, either), so those are incomparable.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:15
  • Re "wield apt": the Q is more general than just apt. Re "leap with your assumptions": not my assumptions, absurd deductions which follow logically from a "flawless" comment.
    – agc
    Commented Aug 9, 2017 at 15:30
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The beef here isn't whether package management questions are on-topic. There is a programming problem here all right, but it is way too broad for a single question, and you don't appear to have done enough research to frame it in a form and scope which is suitable for Stack Overflow.

Either you have a specific question about how to parse package dependencies on Debian, with almost-working code, or you have a fundamental question about how to reason about graphs. You cannot cram both into a single question.

You also seem to be arguing in comments that research for research's sake is meaningful and valid. I have no issue with that, but you cannot just pose a research question and ask somebody else to solve it for you -- that's the PhD version of a homework dump. (Not saying this is a PhD-level problem, just being rhetorical.) Either you have a programming problem and a valid question for Stack Overflow, or you have a potentially interesting question which however doesn't really belong here.

I also speculate that the answer is going to be rather boring. Most of userspace can coexist peacefully (for example, you can install every music player which is compatible with your sound hardware, so your users can choose the one they like on a multi-user system). So you will probably end up with a few system services which Conflicts: between them, and pick the one with the biggest base of supported packages (upstart vs sysinit comes to mind as a probable divider). But in the end, the total number of packages is a good approximation, and the precise number fluctuates and depends on which package sources exactly you have enabled.

A bit of background research would have revealed that there are already tools for exploring the Debian package dependency tree. Apt itself obviously needs to be able to deduce which packages to install; but there are also stand-alone tools like dctrl-tools

Currently, there are 1416 conflicting packages:

debian$ grep-aptavail -F Conflicts . | fgrep -c Conflicts:
1416

There are 1201 unique conflicts; but the vast majority are version conflicts (a package requires at least version so-and-so or at most version so-and-so of something). Of the remaining 375, a significant chunk is still version conflicts (for example, there are two packages with

Conflicts: libmono-cecil0.3-cil, libmono-cecil0.4-cil, libmono-cecil0.5-cil

and so forth).

But anyway, I would be tempted to close this meta question as too broad, too: You attempt to generalize from "are there package management programming problems which are suitable for Stack Overflow" (there are) to "this specific question is fine" (it isn't).

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  • Thanks for the clarification of your views. (BTW, I'm acquainted with dcrtl-tools, and after all have been indirectly using grep-dctrl via the dglob util all along.) Our main difference seem to be about whether programming problems cannot also be somewhat more generally interesting. To argue on the one hand that interest and programming should be mutually exclusive, therefore the question does not belong; and yet on the other hand guess that the programming problem in question is boring -- that's an ambivalent beef.
    – agc
    Commented Oct 11, 2018 at 5:32
  • The problem isn't necessarily boring, but I speculate the answer is.
    – tripleee
    Commented Oct 11, 2018 at 5:35
  • So you're saying it could be like "42"? OK...
    – agc
    Commented Oct 11, 2018 at 5:37
  • More like "nearly all packages can be installed at the same time, but nobody is going to do that."
    – tripleee
    Commented Oct 11, 2018 at 5:39
  • Drat, it's too late to add this great Jack Kirby quote to that '42' comment.
    – agc
    Commented Oct 11, 2018 at 5:46
  • Re "nearly all": Ideally yes... but users of Debian Sid and similar bleeding edge distros might feel otherwise. Particularly if they use the alien util now and then. One never knew what useful program the next upgrade would eliminate. So there's that, because those bleeding edge users are the ones who make the bug reports that help make it possible to have a Debian Stable, or the equivalent. That boredom is therefore earned for us, but for test pilots of unstable versions the answer is less predictable and more interesting.
    – agc
    Commented Oct 11, 2018 at 5:58
  • It's pretty rare for declared dependencies or conflicts to break an upgrade. The dependency tree's constraints is essentially a collection of fixed bugs, but unlikely to predict new bugs directly.
    – tripleee
    Commented Oct 11, 2018 at 6:02
  • Free software is more matured now, so in 2018 it's rarer, but dependency hell will always be right over there on the bleeding edge. There's also what might be called a geriatric edge, which is the opposite but the same -- that is, for users who wish to keep their old hardware going, sometimes support drops out of the latest distro, or some new kernel breaks something, and that too leads to similar "And Then There Were None" difficulties.
    – agc
    Commented Oct 11, 2018 at 6:10

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