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In another question I hypothesized that one reason a few sentences written by a moderator seemed unclear may have been ESL (English as a Second Language) issues -- that is if a hypothetically ESL moderator had a clear idea, and in transcribing it to English, unknowingly produced text less clear than that initial clear idea. Whether or not my hypothesis was true in that particular instance, (it may of course have been this reader's fuzzy comprehension at work), it's certainly possible that ESL moderators make the occasional flub, and probably happens all the time with any broadly international user-base.

Soon another user regarded my ESL hypothesis as a personal insult to that moderator, (or perhaps some broader slur against all ESL moderators). Perhaps not coincidentally, multiple down-votes occurred.

So far as I've seen, SE users (considered separately from moderators) generally do not regard ESL corrections or queries as insults (see note below). ESL being difficult, users seem to both expect, and are not offended by, difficulties.

Are ESL moderators regarded as much that more immune to such difficulties than ESL users, and if so, why?


Note: one possible reason users might seem to be less prone to suppose an insult, is if the moderators already do a good job at removing any such inter-user postings, so that users never see ESL-phobia as a general fault.

Observations based on comments and voting patterns... The idea of being incorrectly presumed an ESL speaker seems to trigger SOM readers. Then follow galloping inferences of ill intent, then righteous censure of same.

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    it's certainly possible that ESL moderators make the occasional flub, and it probably happens all the time with any broadly international user-base. it's certainly possible that native speakers make the occasional flub as well. I don't see what point you are trying to make here. Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:09
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    @NathanOliver, That ESL-based misunderstandings are somehow regarded on SE as distinctively insulting, above and beyond same-language misunderstandings. Like waving a red flag at a bull...
    – agc
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:17
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    I'd say assuming that someone is not a native English speaker because they made a minor mistake is insulting. I've had that happen to me in the past because of a simple typo and I have to say, I wasn't very pleased to be told that it was obvious English is not my native language. How's about instead of assuming (as we all know what that makes of you and me), you ask for clarification.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:24
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    No, ESL isn't a taboo topic, but you might want to cut back on assuming the other person's "fuzzy comprehension" is at fault instead of your own. Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:30
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    @BilltheLizard, Sigh.... just who did you think "this reader's fuzzy comprehension" referred to?
    – agc
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:36
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    I thought it referred to the person who read and responded to your post (sincerely, my bad there). Responding with exasperated sighs isn't helping your case here. Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:41
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    A statement like, "I didn't understand this person, clearly they're [thing]" is going to be seen as an insult no matter what [thing] is. There's nothing wrong with being 14 and 14 year-olds are old enough to be on the site but if you say something like, "I didn't understand this comment; maybe this user's only 14" that is insulting (or at least very dismissive). It's going to be seen as particularly bad when the thing you're accusing someone of being or having is obviously not true.
    – BSMP
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:45
  • @BSMP, Not a statement like "clearly they're", but rather like "perhaps they're". For written misunderstandings, languages may well be relevant, and conditional statements are very useful. To conflate conditional statements or hypotheses with unconditional statements would make scientific method indistinguishable from fanaticism.
    – agc
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 21:04
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    I honestly don't see anything in that comment that would make you say "perhaps they are" other than Martijn's name. Your request for clarification was about the phrase "in that sense". That's not a language specific thing. I use that phrase in my native language and sometimes people ask "in what sense". Nobody thinks I cannot speak Turkish well enough to express my ideas.
    – user2285236
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 21:21
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    Not a statement like "clearly they're", but rather like "perhaps they're". Doesn't matter. That's why in my example I used the word 'maybe'. It read like you were assuming someone had a particular characteristic in order to be dismissive of them and it following it up with an obviously untrue statement, further elaboration would at best involve difficult rounds of grammatical corrections, didn't help.
    – BSMP
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 21:48
  • @TinyGiant, Clarification requests are golden when they work in one round, but it's not always that easy. An ESL user may not understand a request, and each ensuing clarification prompts another, and the requester then becomes a de facto ESL instructor, or quits, or the ESL user becomes frustrated. BTW, I've also been suspected of being ESL but did not take offense, (perhaps being a melting pot American helps), and the suspicious person was ESL, (which I admire). Eventually it worked out, but the correct method is not the same as with native speakers, especially for written exchanges.
    – agc
    Commented Aug 9, 2017 at 5:19
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    STOP ASSUMING THAT PEOPLE ARE ESL.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 9, 2017 at 15:16
  • @BSMP, Re "it read like": the majority of readers here seem to concur, but please see my prior comment to Cody Gray.
    – agc
    Commented Aug 25, 2017 at 5:21
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    As an elaboration to the comment from @BSMP I think the problem is with labeling. I'm an ESL and I'm of course totally fine with it. But if in the middle of a scientific or technical discussion someone is saying oh you must be ESL. It'd certainly be a buzzkill for me. Not because being ESL is by any means a bad thing (many ESL people know English even much better than most natives!) but because lowering me, as a human with an opinion, to a simple label, can be dismissive and make a non-personal discussion personal which is clearly a bad thing! Commented Jan 1, 2018 at 23:27
  • @aran, Thanks. Re "lowering me", I'm interested in whether it's actually the (accurate) label "ESL" that's dismissive, and not some other less articulated correlate, (e.g. an antagonistic usage of the second person singular), from which listeners confuse with any nearby descriptive label, which is itself then escalated into a trigger word. Meanwhile the underlying problem, (oblivious tolerance of needless second person singular, or something like it), remains virulent.
    – agc
    Commented Jan 2, 2018 at 18:36

1 Answer 1

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Yes, I thought your implications about Martijn's language skills were insulting for at least two different reasons:

  1. There were absolutely no grammatical problems or other syntactical issues with the comment you quoted. You just disagreed with his argument(s). Which is totally fine, but don't hide behind confusion or bandy about insults. We're all about content here, not users.

  2. If you had done even the most cursory of investigation, you would have landed on Martijn's profile, which pretty clearly states that he hails from the United Kingdom and therefore is at least fluent in the English language, if not a completely native speaker.

As for the larger question, I'm sure we do have moderators who speak English as a second (or third, or fourth, …) language. However, I've never seen any situations where this was a problem. Given that Stack Overflow is an English-only website, I think a basic grasp of the English language is a reasonable precondition for being elected moderator, so that means the worst that could possibly happen is some miscommunication because of a grammatical error. And that could happen to anyone, including native speakers. Even I occasionally meke errors.

Again, if there is confusion or miscommunication, then you can simply ask about it. Focus on the idea/statement, rather than the person from whom it is coming.

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    I c wat u did their Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:10
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    'hails from the United Kingdom and therefore is at least fluent in the English language' - not necessarily true: he might be from Sunderland or Glasgow. Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:10
  • A letter swap would'v ebeen more believable as your error
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:11
  • Thanks. However, while that's interesting in regards to this question's genesis, but isn't actually relevant to the question itself. I didn't disagree with Martjin's arguments, I literally unequivocally did not understand his meaning. Your inferrence that I really understood, and disagreed but preferred to insult is inaccurate.
    – agc
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:11
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    That is how I interpreted your question. Hmm, I hope that doesn't make me ESL.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 20:11
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    Apparently nobody who speaks English as a second language lives in the UK...Haven't been there myself, but I wouldn't have assumed that.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 21:26
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    One of the first rules of leadership is to not admit you meke errors. If you ever do admit you made an error, that was a mistake. Don't admit that.
    – SandPiper
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 22:09
  • @Servy "and therefore is at least fluent in the English language, if not a completely native speaker." is different to "everyone in the UK speaks English as their first language". Although both are wrong - there are many non-fluent British residents and even British citizens. As a sidenote: English is my first language, and I still dislike the idea that I'm considered fluent - I know very little about the English language (I regularly have to google search the correct grammar)... In fact, sometimes I'd go so far as to say I'm not fluent.
    – Tim
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 23:51
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    @Servy However, the point CG was trying to make still stands, fluent means "(of a person) able to express oneself easily and articulately." and clearly Martijn is able to do so, and is fluent.
    – Tim
    Commented Aug 8, 2017 at 23:53
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    I've lived in England my whole life and sometimes I'll meet or talk to someone with ESL who has better grammar and grasp of the English language than I do. But maybe it's because I'm from Essex
    – Albzi
    Commented Aug 9, 2017 at 7:25
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    @CodyGray This post was about Martijn? I wouldn't have guessed, I've never had a problem with Martijn, I'd say occasionally he can be a bit blunt, but I always put that down to the fact that he knows what he's talking about. Commented Aug 9, 2017 at 8:40
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    I didn't have to guess, @NickA
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 9, 2017 at 11:35
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    @SandPiper Only Machiavellian leadership. Pretty much everyone else thinks a good leader is someone who is humble and willing to admit when they were wrong. But you probably already knew that and were just joking. Still, lots of crazy stuff going on in the real world right now, so can't be too sure...
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 9, 2017 at 11:36
  • @CodyGray Yes, I saw that from OPs questions on meta, but outwith that, I wouldn't have Commented Aug 9, 2017 at 11:36
  • @CodyGray Yes, I was joking ;)
    – SandPiper
    Commented Aug 9, 2017 at 11:45

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