-10

I'm reading this particular post and I realize that, besides the obvious conclusion, which we all agree upon (i.e. it's a huge no-no to bother people outside of SO), there might be something more that we can do.

@Mysticial First a disclaimer. I believe it's wrong to contact OPs outside the forum that they've chosen. Their inbox is their private business. Having said that - I'd like to point out that something needs obviously to change since the outside-of-SO (O2SO) contact increases.

Perhaps we could change the names and texts of the closings? Or, perhaps, we need to have a different approach to closing, something that includes the closee's participation?

Of course, there are a lot of users who are just dumb, impolite, uncivilized and rude by their own nature. We can't do anything about that. And of course, there are the closing votes that are incorrectly cast and don't show any kinds of effort to understand said question.

But apart from that, I suspect that there's a large and increasing number of users who are plainly p!#¤d off because of the blunt and harsh way their contributions are closed. Please note here that some people might be more sensitive to that and that "I don't see it" isn't a relevant argument here.

After all, if someone gets to the lengths of actually looking up a person IRL and contact them there, then that someone feels very strongly on the subject. Perhaps it'd behoove us all if we considered why.

8
  • 15
    Yet another "Can't we please be nicer to the new user" post. Yawn. I totally disagree with what you've written, for the same reasons that have been used here in the other xxx discussions on the matter. New users have the same ability to become familiar with this site and how it operates (actually, much more information is available now) than those of us that have been around a while. Because you're new to an area doesn't mean that driving 40 miles an hour over the speed limit won't get you arrested. If a poor question is posted, it shouldn't matter if it's by a new user or an experienced one.
    – Ken White
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 17:11
  • 2
    Perhaps we could change the names and texts of the closings? We already did that, including changing "closed" to "on hold." I doubt it's the text that's the issue. Or, perhaps, we need to have a different approach to closing, something that includes the closee's participation? "includes the closee's participation" doesn't make any sense to me. Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 17:28
  • @KenWhite I suspect, and please take that as a respectful remark, that you see something else in my question that what I've wrote. In fact, I suspect you're so biased that you're answering to something completely different. I never mentioned anything about "new user". I'm taking about {negative word here} who are way too prone to alarm and flag/close than what's appropriate. I'm not talking about correct closures so please don't reiterate the old "if it'd be good, it wouldn't be closed" because it lacks relevance in this case. Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 20:30
  • @DavidRobinson You might have taken that suggestion too literally. What I mean is that if a large people gets annoyed to such an extent that they do something inappropriate, it might be a good idea to consider revisiting the current approach. On occasion I can feel that it's a holy cow to even imply that SO might be a part of the problem. (Not the site itself, of course - it's godlike. I'm talking about certain users who hide behind "ooh, we must keep stuff working*", while they actually damage it. I'm not talking about devoted users. Just the inappropriate ones.) Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 20:34
  • 1
    I think we should focus on stopping the constant flow of bad questions instead of finding ways to not be as harsh when users contribute to the problem. If about half (or whatever the percentage is) of questions are closed each day, obviously some users are going to overreact.
    – Anonymous
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 21:32
  • @Anonymous By the same logic - if there's so many closings, perhaps we're closing on grounds that are too hastily judged and, hence, create annoyance. Not claiming it is the case. Just pointing out that we're not sure where the problem originates. Lately, I've been been under the impression that some users are way too keen on closing and it's getting its toll on the contributing part. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 14:28
  • 1
    Not really. The problem is that some users don't read the how to ask or on-topic guides because they simply want an answer.
    – Anonymous
    Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 14:37
  • @Anonymous I agree with you in principle. But you it seems to me that you're concluding that the number of such users is large. That's not implied, though. If we assume for a second that it's the correcting user's attitude that is to blame (as opposed to the correctees), we can draw the opposite conclusion. I'm just pointing out that there are strong views presented but not so much actual data to support it. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 14:57

4 Answers 4

-10

Although I am not very experienced in using StackOverflow, I agree this is the way we learn and ask about programming technique. Everyone experience the newbie stage in every community. Answering others' questions is a good way to learn things more in depth.

Sometimes why the newbie only ask question without answering? It is because they think they are not familiar and worry their answers may not be the best answer, so they are shy to answer.

As a community, it should be a room for everyone to learn and share, poor question may mainly caused by not clear question or problem in grammar if questioner is from non-English country.

Closing a question by clicking a button is VERY EASY, but does he/she consider that he/she has the responsibility to explain why he/she close the question. He/she may not understand the question, he/she should inform the questioner what he/she thinks and giving chance to the questioner to improve it instead of just clicking the close button. Everyone taking an action must has his own reason. Complainant without reason is unfair to the person who being complained. This is not recommended in a community.

5
  • I believe many users agree with you but they are (a) not engaged enough to speak, (b) not arrogant enough to talk back to the authority/majority or (c) afraid of a heavy vote-down. On one hand I really do understand why the closing is needed (and that some newbies are inappropriate). However, I've felt that the "feed-back" has been too elitistic and off-putting on occasion. It's only limited to certain users. On one forum, I've noticed three users. Once they see my post (comment on it), three closing votes always appear. Might be a set of fake accounts... Commented Oct 12, 2014 at 9:31
  • @Konrad Viltersten, closing a question if no further improvement or inappropriate is right. It is fair to other people who contribute. My point is just hoping everyone in a community can have a generous heart in helping people the improvement. Just like this answer, even though many users agree you think, it also have 6 down vote. In the world, there are so many followers, I do think feedback is required for the first one who vote to close.
    – Kelvin
    Commented Oct 12, 2014 at 12:11
  • I agree with you completely. That's what I'm saying too - in many, many cases, closing is the correct choice. However, that statement is often used to justify closing when it's not appropriate. I often hear "if the community thought that it should be re-open, it would be". Great! But the very same user actually complained and reported to a moderator when the question actually got re-open. So I think that the system is needed but is currently insufficient or even corrupt. Commented Oct 12, 2014 at 14:21
  • I did try my best to rewrite my closed question but seem no way for me to ask for the people who closed my question and reconsider to re-open it if question is appropriate. I suggest to have a way for the questioner to contact the people who closed the question and give them the way to learn from each other.
    – Kelvin
    Commented Oct 14, 2014 at 3:23
  • I see your pain, mate. My opinion is that - in most cases - if the closer doesn't explain why, there's not much to their decision. I often ignore people who ignore leaving feed-back. I postulate that there's no valid reason for the close vote unless otherwise specified. And the generic set of options are not in any way feed-back, in my eyes. So, 75% of times when my question is closed I take it as someone having bad day, holding grudge against me and sheepish behavior from the follow up close votes. :) Commented Oct 14, 2014 at 12:59
23

I'm not going to disagree that the methods of closing are blunt and that the community can be even blunter. However, there is already a huge amount of mitigation that goes on:

  1. Before you can join you're forced to confirm that you've read how to ask a question, which includes further links to huge amounts of information on how to ask a good question
  2. When you ask a question you get two sets of potential duplicates
  3. Once you've asked a question there's another set of potential duplicates
  4. The community, despite occasional rudeness, is helpful, editing and helping to clarify questions
  5. The close reasons tell the user exactly why their question was closed, and provide further information on how to fix it

Whilst this may not be done by hand-holding each user through the process I think it's ruder to completely ignore a community's norms and all etiquette on asking for help (you wouldn't just demand help off a stranger if you weren't on the internet would you?) than to stop a question receiving more answers. Though, I agree that a user should have the ability to participate in the closing of their own question; but I don't see how this will be possible in the majority of cases.

I'm not a member of the Stack Overflow must be all things to all people lobby (philosophically I'm much more in favour of networks and distributed systems (societal networks and systems)). If we accept that Stack Overflow doesn't have to be all things to all people (and not everyone will obviously) then we also accept that some people won't like the fact that they can't get everything here.

Whatever you believe, there becomes a point where it's not possible to help everyone - the network becomes too big for efficient self-regulation. It didn't know when to stop growing. I don't know whether this is true here yet but if we've reached that stage then technological solutions are preferable to societal ones. If we can stop people from hurting themselves by not paying attention to all the help out there then the wording on the close reasons matter less.

The Stack Exchange team seem to be coming to this conclusion as well.

The issue, as always, is that a technological solution is independent of human kindness and reason. Cold logic may have helped more people get credit but if you've got some special circumstances you still need a human to help. Whether making credit that much easier to obtain was a good thing in the first place, I don't feel equipped to answer.

10
  • 3
    I agree. We come across this again and again and the answer is always the same: if you learn how to put effort into learning how to use SO and ask a question properly, you will be rewarded. There are no tricks going on here: if your question is closed, there's a very high chance that something in your question that has nothing to do with the question itself (grammar, spelling, formatting, details, etc.) really needs to be fixed and a very low chance that your question was closed due to some "rule" in the Help Center that makes your question unanswerable here.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 16:38
  • @AstroCB I don't have statistics to support nor disprove that claim so I'm only talking out of own experience. While often it's the case that something needs to be improved, I'd argue that it's becoming more and more common that there are slackers on the closer-side now. People who'll flag a question as a dupe without putting an effort to actually read it. It happened to me once or twice that some user flagged the question as a dupe based on the fact that there was something related in the list on the right. I recall that once I linked to my own question and explained that I'm now asking Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 16:51
  • @KonradViltersten That's why I say "very high chance" and not "100% chance." There will always be things that were incorrectly (or perhaps too hastily) closed, and that's why there's reopen.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 16:52
  • @AstroCB ...something new that's based on but not fully related to the original. The user still flagged it as a dupe upon which there was a group-behavior and the question was closed. Then reopened. My point - I think you underestimate the number of panicing closers/flaggers and your statement becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 16:53
  • 1
    @KonradViltersten Oh, I understand what you're saying: everyone wants to pile on the close votes so that they can have their name on the question and show their "power." Things are unjustly closed all of the time, which is partially what Meta's for.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 16:54
  • @AstroCB I believe that the chance is quite low, especially when it comes to seasoned users with reputation over, say 1000. As for the reopen-votes, that doesn't really work as it requires even more effort. I think we should address the problem instead of denying it. The close-proneness's got too far and is on the raise. YMMV :) Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 16:55
  • @AstroCB Yupp. Agreed. :) Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 16:56
  • @KonradViltersten Well, true, but there's always that pessimism. Often, fixing up grammar and formatting goes a long way and stops people from making that instinctive jump for the close or flag buttons.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 16:58
  • @Ben I assumed that there wouldn't be any more answers, not differing from the already given. I didn't consider that it's meta and not SO. Acceptance retracted until later. Thanks for the remark. Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 19:22
  • @AstroCB The image and the description of it - that's some sad view of the community. And depressing too... :) Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 14:31
12

There's really only so much sugar you can sprinkle on top of "we're gonna lock down and then delete this question" before folks start to feel confused or worse yet patronized - IMHO, we've gone well out of our way to make these as polite as possible, and if you have any specific suggestions for improvement we'll consider them too... But please keep in mind, in many cases it's the action itself that folks object to, not how the language it is couched in.

And that's unavoidable, in so far as the alternatives are worse...

5
  • Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in the formulation. My point is that if there's LIN of folks that feel the need to contact closers/downvoters outside SO, then something looks wrong. I suspect that you think of other kind of cases than me. I'm talking about reliable, mature, calm people who end up being p#¤%ed off to such an extent that they loose it. Blaming that on themselves only seems a bit self-righteous. I know people who are leeching off SO because they don't want to be bullied. Everybody looses on such situation. :( Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 20:06
  • I got my first email about a question I'd closed on January 21st 2009, @Konrad. The author was a polite, well-intentioned member of the site, and remains so to this day - I opted to discuss the matter with him in the comments on the question however, as such things should be done in public whenever possible. I've no idea why some folks appear to prefer email for this purpose, but it's nothing new.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 20:55
  • I'm very glad that you had such a pleasant experience and that not everybody taking time to trace someone's email and contact them is a raging lunatic just wanting to declare a juhad on your behind. Perhaps said user saw email as a primary means of communication (back in 2009 SO wasn't the Google and Utube of programming that it's today). Having said that, I'm only referring to the contactings outside of SO that are inappropriate, rude and aggressive. If some, otherwise calm, people basically loose it, we might look for the cause elsewhere than in them only. Commented Aug 11, 2014 at 14:36
  • Oh, I've been getting angry emails for years too, @Konrad - my point was simply that the use of email isn't necessarily a symptom of someone fed up beyond all reason; it's possible that some folks just see it as a better venue.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 12, 2014 at 4:24
  • I totally agree on the email part. As I pointed out before - I only refer to the (biggest?) subset of those that express aggression, anger, negative crap and what not. The baaad kind, that is. When smart people start doing stupid things, we should worry. Also, I regret that your inbox had to take the abuse. I hope I'll never end up in such situation. Bitch-slap me if I do. :) Commented Aug 12, 2014 at 5:19
6

If there is a way to make the communication to the OP friendlier when questions are closed, particularly to new users, I would be all for that. I agree that some (many?) of them seem to interpret their first question being closed as a "you're not welcome here" message. I don't think that's the intention at all. If they get that impression, there's a breakdown in communication.

While I don't systematically search for bad questions, I do cast close votes when I encounter questions that need work, either because they jump out on the front page, or they show up in my searches. Particularly when I happen to spot them on the front page, it can happen that I'll cast a close vote a couple of minutes after the question was asked. I sometimes do feel guilty about doing that, just because of the way it could be (falsely) perceived.

There are a number of reasons why I still cast the close votes anyway:

  1. To save other people time. If I already identified a question that is really not ready to be answered, I don't want too many others to spend their time finding the same thing. Or be tempted to spend their time trying to answer it anyway.

  2. To give the OP a chance to improve the question before being downvoted into oblivion. It's really important to understand that "closing" the question means putting it on hold, to give them time to make it better. I mostly do leave a comment with suggestions on how to do that, particularly if my close vote is the first. The goal is for people to improve their questions, and ask better questions in the future. It's really not about trying to turn anybody away.

  3. To maintain the site quality. People come here because this site provides higher quality and more focused information than what can be randomly found on the internet. An important reason for that is exactly this process of enforcing certain standards on the content. So as unfriendly as it might sometimes seem to new posters, this probably wouldn't be a site they would come to for answers if these processes were not in place.

2
  • I agree with you on the points made. Sadly, and please understand that I express it with respect for the matter, I don't think you are representative to the case. You clearly put in effort into close-voting and/or don't chase to be the guy with most closes. Your conduct isn't harmful to the site at all. Regrettably, my experience says that there's a LIN of users who vote down/close just to follow the current. And they always motivate it with "others voted that way too - no smoke without fire" and/or "maybe OP should improve the question/answer". While in many cases correct, I think that... Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 19:29
  • ...I'm in a position to make a sort-of-judgement (not sure if it's the best term), that many cases are just BS. And as I said elsewhere before - it's insulting that OP needs to explain themselves for each individual case. Sometimes they should, if the question/answer was unlear. But not that often. Especially when the poster is, say 1k+ reputed, we might think that they're not just dicking around and offer them benefit of doubt. In conclusion - I believe that we're talking different cases, you and I. :) Commented Aug 10, 2014 at 19:34

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .