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Many people have been surprised to find out that a top-tier programming language, PHP (#2-7 depending on metric), suddenly has an extra year of support, since sometime after March 2024.

When I posted the question When did PHP extend support for supported PHP versions by an extra year?, it was closed on the grounds that it's "not about programming".

Should an important question that affects millions of developers and hundreds of thousands of projects, be considered "not about programming"?

If a question is highly-important and impactful, should we close them even if they're not strictly on-topic? Would it make sense to instead redirect the question to the most appropriate Stack Exchange community? Redirecting would be more inclusive, and more helpful than just closing.

Also, in my opinion, the post was not low-quality. I included screenshots, and it’s visually appealing to look at. It addresses a question many developers have, since the announcement by the PHP people was not well done.

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    Just because a question is about programming languages doesn't mean it's about programming. Commented May 24 at 10:37
  • 4
    Sorry, I'm pretty invested in PHP, but that still looks like a non-programming question. How is that a practical programming issue?
    – yivi
    Commented May 24 at 10:44
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    Okay, if this is about programming, how would you answer that question, with code, Theodore?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 24 at 10:45
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    @Cerbrus That's not a relevant metric at all. Not every programming question needs to be answered "with code". The question is off-topic, but using the wrong arguments to defends its closure doesn't help.
    – yivi
    Commented May 24 at 10:46
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    Closed questions can still be edited. Don't rush this. Just some suggestions: Remove "The heavy downvotes prove my point." They don't. No journalists are getting involved in any of this, you're making this way larger than it is.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 24 at 10:58
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    Apples and oranges, Theodore.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 24 at 11:01
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    For what it's worth, this Meta SO question would pretty much be answerable if you asked specifically why a question about official long-term support was deemed out of scope for the site. This would probably include either counter-arguments (such as the fact that a question being considered useful is not sufficient to make it on-topic), as well as eventual arguments in favor of reverting the closure.
    – E_net4
    Commented May 24 at 11:01
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    @Theodore that's not relevant. You can ask anything you want to a bot. Or to a coworker. Here, there are specific community rules.
    – yivi
    Commented May 24 at 11:02
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    @TheodoreR.Smith You may wish to drop the comparison with ChatGPT. They serve different purposes, and as such have different constraints to asking and contributing. On Stack Overflow, you would never obtain an answer suggesting you to eat one stone a day for what it's worth.
    – E_net4
    Commented May 24 at 11:03
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    "ChatGPT is never goign to say "Sorry, that's not a programming question."" CrapGPT, however, isn't Stack Overflow; it's an LLM and spits out crap regardless of the text entered. That isn't how Stack Overflow works; it has rules about what is, and isn't, on-topic and content that isn't on-topic is closed until it is adjusted to be on-topic or (in many cases) removed when it isn't. If you want a conversation with something, that might spit out nonsense, then CrapGPT is exactly what you want. If you want answers to specific programming based questions from experts, then Stack Overflow is what you want.
    – Thom A
    Commented May 24 at 11:09
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    Please don't add additional commentary about the general state of affairs on SE, or your feelings about them. While those opinions are valid, and you're free to share them, this Meta question (which is ostensibly about the closure of a specific question on SO) is not the place to do so.
    – cigien
    Commented May 24 at 11:42
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    I don't understand the premise. "an important question that affects millions of developers and hundreds of thousands of projects" - why is this an "important" question, and how does it "affect" them? It seems like the actual goal is to promote awareness of a change, rather than to inform about some trivia surrounding that change. But promoting awareness is not doing Q&A. Commented May 24 at 14:48
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    "How am I being confrontational if I have no idea who you are and am just trying to save StackOverflow?" - by framing your proposal and actions as part of an effort "to save Stack Overflow", you are inherently being confrontational. You are confronting those who disagree with the premises of your proposal, by suggesting that they are obstructing your noble cause, or even themselves adversaries. It's frankly a little disturbing to me that this needs to be pointed out. Commented May 24 at 14:51
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    As a side point: you have been here for almost 14 years now. I can excuse you for not understanding Meta, particularly in regards to the voting culture, because one can theoretically use the main site forever without being forced to participate in Meta. But you really should at least understand that "the question is about to be closed" does not entail a "rush to edit". That's basic site functionality. At some point you should take responsibility for understanding the site software you are using. Commented May 24 at 15:23
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    Similarly, you should understand very well by now that "well researched" is not the only criteria people have for upvoting a question or answer, even on the main site and especially on Meta. It's not even the most important thing. It's honestly only incidentally relevant to questions - because swiftly-closed duplicates can be useful in finding the canonical version, and otherwise the point of doing research before asking is to ask a question that has been improved by that research - not to make people believe that you deserve an answer. Commented May 24 at 15:26

3 Answers 3

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That the topic of a question is a programming language (or a very popular programming language, or even the most popular programming language) is not really material to decide if the question is really topical for Stack Overflow.

A question needs to be about:

  • a specific programming problem, or
  • a software algorithm, or
  • software tools commonly used by programmers; and is
  • a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development

I'd say that the support length for a specific version of a language is neither of those things. Yes, it's nice to know. It can even be important to know. But it's not a practical programming problem. What's even less of a programming problem is when was that decision made.

I believe that the question was correctly closed and shouldn't be reopened.

Should we close highly-important impactful questions? Even when they’re on-topic?

No, not if they are on-topic. But we should vote to close if we believe they are off-topic.

Or should we redirect the question to the most appropriate Stack Exchange community? Redirecting would be more inclusive, more helpful.

I can't think of any other SE site where this specific question would be on-topic. Maybe I simply don't know about it. But question migration is heavily curtailed because it can be problematic. If someone knows about a site where the question would be fine, they'll tell you about it so you can delete this one and post a new one "there"

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    What do you think about this question?
    – E_net4
    Commented May 24 at 11:18
  • It's probably better. I don't love it, though, but it's not the question at hand; and comparisons can be tricky. I rather focus on the merits or lack of thereof for this particular one.
    – yivi
    Commented May 24 at 11:19
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    Just to note: that's if you quote the help center. But if you close the description of the close reason, it becomes "Use this close reason if the question is not about a specific programming problem, a software algorithm, or software tools primarily used by programmers.". From that perspective all of a sudden its not mandatory anymore that it's a programming problem, it is one of the options only. So yeah I agree with you... but I also understand why there is after more than a decade of fighting about it there is still no consensus either. Stack Overflow is one big contradiction like this.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 24 at 14:15
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    Support length was a practical question when it was about broad, backwards-incompatible changes, asked 9 years in advance. Commented May 24 at 15:14
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Considering that there are precedents in the site of questions about the official level of support for a certain programming language or technology (see for example What are the differences between Long Term Support (LTS) and Stable versions of Node.js?) there would also be grounds for a question asking about the extension period of the official entity behind the development and maintenance of PHP.

Both the question about PHP and the one I just linked pose concerns that a developer would have and are indeed about the technology at hand. They may seem not very practical (reminding that the help pages do point out that it should be a practical, answerable question about software development), but they still draw lines between whether a technology can be trusted in the future, thus helping the software developer decide whether to continue using it (if so, which versions to trust), or whether to pick something else. These are rather practical consequences, are they not?

Now, what may have driven this closure is that Stack Overflow is not customer support, though I'm not entirely sure I would classify it as such. PHP does not exist as a sold product nor as a service.

I propose to reopen When did PHP extend support for supported PHP versions by an extra year? and see how well it fares.

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  • This is a good answer. The bigger question I have is why does it help StackOverflow and the Internet in general for my original question to be closed? Currently it's in the Top 5 in Google for this question. I could have asked it elsewhere... I will i nthe future. But I don't see how that's good for StackOverflow... Commented May 24 at 11:30
  • @TheodoreR.Smith Re. the closure, there are two concerns here: whether it is admitted in the scope of the site; and whether the answers to the question will continue to be useful or whether they will tend to attract more noise than value (one of the main reasons why primarily opinion-based questions and requests for-offsite resources are off-topic). My personal assessment is that we are not better off closing it. The current counterargument is that this question isn't practical enough, though.
    – E_net4
    Commented May 24 at 13:42
  • @TheodoreR.Smith Other than that, let's not take downvotes personally. That is the biggest mistake people make when participating on Stack Overflow. In this case, it is somewhat established that voting is different on Meta. You can also read more about it here.
    – E_net4
    Commented May 24 at 13:43
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    I feel like the cases are different. Your Node.js example asks about the different levels of support. This has an immediate impact on e.g. choosing a version. It also is a problem of understanding the concept of LTS. The PHP question just asks, when the duration of support has been changed. This has (in my opinion) no impact on the work of a developer. The fact, that it has changed might, but nobody (slight hyperbole) cares when this change happened. Commented May 24 at 13:50
  • @JeanotZubler I imagine that an answer would include not just when that change took place, but also how far it extends in time. There are real consequences when the plans to drop an LTS are within the upcoming 6 to 8 weeks.
    – E_net4
    Commented May 24 at 13:52
  • Yes, the answer could give more information than was asked (as also happened in your example question), but we evaluate questions based on what is written, not on what could have been asked. The question as asked is completely answered by a date and a link. This usually means it is a bad question. Commented May 24 at 14:24
  • though addmitedly, a better link could be found, if one went to look Commented May 24 at 14:28
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    If there's a valid question here, it would look more like "how long will version x.y be supported?", except there needs to be a reason why there's a compelling interest in that specific version. A historical fact ("when did X happen?", even if the answer is "last week") can't help solve a practical problem, because we don't have time machines, and thus once X has happened we are in the post-X state permanently. Commented May 24 at 15:16
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While there doesn't seem to be an answer posted yet, and while this meta question itself has a closure vote of 4, I feel a need to answer this before it becomes impossible to do so.

Clearly, "Why does PHP have an extra year of extended support and when did it happen?"

These are two programming-related questions, as PHP is one of the most popular languages on Earth, with over 6 million developers. The Why was it extended has an answer (it was voted on by the PHP developers because the original 2 years was deemed too short) and When (on 4 May 2024).

Clearly these are on-topic, and so I don't think the original question should have been closed.

Next, for this Meta Stack Overflow question in particular:

  1. Moving high-quality questions that may be tangentially off-topic to more appropriate Stack Exchange websites is far more inclusive than closing them. Things that should be taken into account:

    1. Time spent by the poster.
    2. Quality of the question. Did they post screenshots? Did they put in effort?
    3. Rep of the poster. Do they have more than 1,000 rep points? More than 10,000?? Definitely give them more benefit of the doubt.
    4. Time as a registered user.
      • Have they been here less than a year? Be more gracious and explanatory.
      • Have they been here more than 10 years, like me (almost 14)? Be more hesitant to close.
  2. Be less rapid to close in general.

    • Does the question dilute the site's brand? No? Consider leaving it open.
    • Is the question of public interest related to the mission of the Stack Exchange website? Consider leaving it open.

There should probably be more suggestions for making it harder to close, too...

Obviously, we should close spam. Obviously, simple questions that are not important to anyone but the poster ("Help! My little program has a simple-to-google compile error!").

But things that aren't googleable? When Stack Overflow first existed (I know, because I became a member then) in 2008, blogs were everywhere. In 2024, no one has blogs, not even me. It's much harder to get public knowledge out into Google and other forms of disseminating knowledge now.

Thus, Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange have even bigger roles to play. The quickness to delete and close down otherwise-good conversations should be much more conservative, in my opinion.

What is there to be gained by a quick closure? I don't know. A link to the reasonings behind closure of high-quality looking posts should definitely be included in the Closed message. Otherwise, it just turns people off.

Finally, when you downvote a question or answer, you should put a reason for it. I don't think downvotes should be anonymous, either. Stand by your negativity and give constructive criticism or don't be negative.

Downvote brigades have never helped society. In fact, anonymous negative group actions have caused many group harms and atrocities in our history.

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    There are many misunderstandings in this answer. Too many to address in comments.
    – yivi
    Commented May 24 at 11:20
  • If you want, you can check the other answers (one is mine), which try to engage with you about the specific closure you brought forward to discuss.
    – yivi
    Commented May 24 at 11:24
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    A high rep user, or a longtime user, should be held to a higher standard than a new user, I would think. Why should a high rep user (who should know the site rules and guidelines much better than a new user) be given more leeway than a new user? This seems rather strange to me.
    – cigien
    Commented May 24 at 11:24
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    "Time spent by the poster." How do I tell how much time a user has spent asking? We can't stand behind and watch them type "Rep of the poster." Rep of the user is irrelevant; new and old users can be just as good and bad at asking questions. "Time as a registered user." See prior point. "Be less rapid to close in general." How soon should I "vote to close"?. TL;DR: Immediately.
    – Thom A
    Commented May 24 at 11:26
  • @cigen What a thirdparty would see is that an ontopic question was closed incorrectly and then the meta question about it, the incorrectness wasn't addressed, jsut the "tone" of the asker. The takeaway is not to risk such negativity by going elsewhere. Thus we have this: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/394096/… Commented May 24 at 11:26
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    "What is there to be gained by a quick closure?" Does this answer your question? Why are questions closed immediately?
    – Thom A
    Commented May 24 at 11:29
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    Whether or not company has been run badly is completely unrelated to how are questions moderated and what are the basis for closure.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented May 24 at 13:05
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    On quick closures, one more from Meta SO: How long should we wait for a poster to clarify a question before closing?
    – E_net4
    Commented May 24 at 13:47
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    "anonymous negative group actions have caused many group harms and atrocities in our history" Can you cite some of those, preferably those which are closest to the voting system that we have in place?
    – E_net4
    Commented May 24 at 14:16

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