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I just came across this shorthand in a SO post and I was unfamiliar with it being a shorthand for positive ("+ve") and negative ("-ve").

"-ve" and "+ve" mean negative and positive respectively. They are often used in science laboratory notebook shorthand and are convenient ways for scientists to quickly write about the charges of lab equipment and chemical species.

https://homework.study.com/explanation/what-does-ve-and-plus-ve-mean.html

This seems like a low value shorthand, should use of this notation to be encouraged in SO? This shorthand seems more appropriate for hand written notes where brevity plays a larger role, but for typed text, it just seems like an opportunity for a keyword search miss trying to hit "positive" or "negative" which I would think would be the more dominant query search terms in use.

I encountered this notation initially from this question Should I implement Apache Airflow or only work with Celery. However searching more broadly I found a lot of uses of this notation surprisingly enough: https://stackoverflow.com/search?q=%22%2Bve%22

What should be made of this notation?

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    this sort of reminds me of a PR review I was involved in where someone used the term deets in a variable name, eg system_deets. I thought it was an acronym of some kind but I found out they were leaking slang into their code, deets being details. I asked them to use the actual word to avoid obscuring things since readers would likely read more into the letters hypothesizing the existence of something more than was ever intended to be conveyed beyond simple details. Mixing slang into a production codebase just felt like it would break the principle of least astonishment.
    – jxramos
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 6:03
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    it would be interesting to do a query to see what tags that notation correlates in if any
    – jxramos
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 6:13
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    "found a lot of uses of this notation" not all the hits when searching for "+ve" actually contain these three characters. You actually just searched for "ve" with that query and the results are for anything that contains the two characters. Well, it searches for word boundries as well, so won't really find "positive" but would find both "+ve", "-ve" but also anything like ":ve" and so on.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 6:13
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    This site uses English.
    – philipxy
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 6:44
  • I don't see that notation in the first post you mention, but personally I don't like it: generally, when people want to shorten the words "positive" and "negative" they use "pos." and "neg.". I don't see any added value in inventing a new shorthand for that.
    – Dominique
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 7:19
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    @Dominique I've edited the first post, you can see the revision history. There is no value at all I can see in shortening the full words. In either way. The post is 1633 characters long when the words "positive" and "negative" are used. Shortening to three characters means the post would be 1623 characters. The difference in length is negligable. The shorthand does not seem to provide any benefit.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 7:24
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    "They are often used in science laboratory notebook shorthand and are convenient ways for scientists to quickly write about the charges of lab equipment and chemical species" - that already answers it. We don't do that here.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 9:10
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    Why is this being downvoted then? Surely it provides some use to meta users.
    – Blue Robin
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 17:02
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    @BlueRobin I guess a click-bait title for a simple issue that is probably discussed before in a different context.
    – rene
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 18:12
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    After long internal discussion with myself I decided not to downvote this post despite completely disagreeing with it - OP tagged it with "discussion" in hopes to avoid "I disagree" downvotes... so I respect that choice... (but I strongly suspect I'm minority today in that decision and the rest just vote "agree/disagree" as if the question would be more appropriately tagged with the FR). Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 18:26
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    I don't venture forth into the meta topics all that much so if there's a better tag by all means someone drop a suggestion to the most appropriate one.
    – jxramos
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 18:54
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    @AlexeiLevenkov I upvoted the question because I think it is something that deserves attention.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 20:05
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    i downvoted it because i think it's pointless. We can't control how people communicate at the scale of SO, at best we can edit posts we come across naturally that can use an edit that improves readability. If that edit includes -ve -> negative, so be it, but why is this particular case something worthy of a discussion? If the edit improves readability, make the edit just like any other case. there's currently more than 23k posts (with a bunch of false positives) with this terminology, we certainly don't need to go through and fix all of them.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 20:46
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    +ive and -ive have also been observed in the wild. Dejargonising is the order of the day. Commented Nov 9, 2023 at 1:54
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    that's a fantastic term: To free from obscure technical language.
    – jxramos
    Commented Nov 9, 2023 at 5:05

2 Answers 2

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No, if you encounter this, just edit it to the full word.

Saving 5 characters (per instance of the shorthand) is not useful, as

  1. there is plenty of character limit in posts
  2. it does not even save that much typing
  3. nor does it save much time while reading
  4. makes searching for the term very hard
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My initial thought (as someone who has only ever seen the notation in high-school chem and forgot about it entirely until now) was that it'd be better to just change it to "positive" and "negative". But I'm trying to think deeper and challenge that... Technical terminology and jargon are things that programmers deal with every day, and different technical areas each have their own common terms.

So I think it could depend on audience and context. Maybe there are some tags where the audience is generally used to the notation due to it being commonplace for the technology / topic. Just a guess. I'm not an SME in anything like that but maybe there are such tags. My question would be: "are there any such tags? what are they?".

I tried writing up a SEDE query to get some actual data, but it's timing out and I need to go to bed. Help is welcome with optimizing. It only covers scanning the bodies of question posts because I'm too lazy to write for scanning answers and dealing with joining for tags (help is welcome with that too).

SELECT
  T.TagName,
  C.[Count]
FROM (
  SELECT
    T.TagId AS TagId,
    COUNT(*) AS [Count]
  FROM Posts P
  JOIN PostTags T ON T.PostId = P.Id
  WHERE
    P.Body COLLATE Latin1_General_BIN LIKE '%[+-]ve%'
  GROUP BY T.TagId
) C
JOIN Tags T ON T.Id = C.TagId
ORDER BY C.[Count] DESC
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  • First thought: I also often see "+ve" or "-ve" in titles. Does not necessarily show up in the body afterwards.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 8:50
  • The problem with that query is that SEDE doesn't have indexes on the post's body. We'd need someway to narrow the search if we want to run that query. Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 8:52
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    I see absolutely no excuse to artificially restrict the programmer audience to domain audiences. Just because one works on code concerned with a specific domain doesn't mean oneself is from that domain let alone familiar with all its jargon. SO targets a broad audience, there is absolutely zero benefit to tolerating the custom of using jargon to keep muggles out. Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 9:16
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    @MisterMiyagi maybe I haven't been clear enough about what I'm trying to get at. my intent is to get to a point something like "if it's reasonable to expect ~90% of the expected audience of a question or answer post to understand a term, then it's fine to use that term in that post"
    – starball
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 9:20
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    @starball I did get that and it is precisely what I disagree with. Nothing on SO should have a 90% expected audience that isn't "100% bio-organic free range programmer". Every technology has people dealing with it that do not come from its original domain. We're a site for programmers not generic domain experts, even if the domain experts happen to be programmers. Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 9:31
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    @MisterMiyagi where do you draw the line? I'd think that clearly algorithm terminology as it relates to a question is okay. what about mathematical terminology as it relates a question? (Ex. in implementation of a math function). what about mathematical notation as it relates to a question?
    – starball
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 16:42
  • "+ive" and "-ive" (different from the "+ve" and "-ve" exposed here) was (is?), I think, in there. Commented Nov 9, 2023 at 2:06
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    Tag-specific it might be more acceptable, but let's face it... we're not evolved enough as a species yet to be able to respectfully manage exceptions for specific tags.
    – Gimby
    Commented Nov 9, 2023 at 9:49
  • @starball My line goes wherever there is an alternative via a common Englisch term or failing that a programming specific term; and even then anything beyond that probably deserves scrutiny for being on-topic or relevant in the first place. At the very least, there should be a plaintext description of what the programming problem is. To shamelessly plug from my working space: Asking about "\sum_{x \in {0,1}} \left| \langle x0| \mathrm{U} \, \mathrm{X} \otimes \mathrm{H} |00\rangle \right|^2" isn't a programming question unless I can express that in terms of Q#, QisKit, or similar. Commented Nov 9, 2023 at 10:23

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