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Motivation

Nowadays my questions seem much more likely to get closed and it is impossible to get them reopened or moved to the correct substack. This takes a pretty big emotional toll, as I often invest quite a bit of time to describe my problems. People vote close/down and move on. I don't mind editing my questions to satisfy the moderator's demands, but not if it has zero effect and just wastes my time.

I am hesitant to ask new questions because the experience is so jarring.

Proposal

I suggest that close/down-votes of newly posted questions/answers that were edited after the vote (or vote-confirmation) should require a confirmation, or else the vote should be automatically removed.

This mechanism should probably only be in effect until a certain period of inactivity has passed.

Related (from the comments):

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  • 26
    If you are finding your questions often get closed the action should surely be to make sure that your next questions learn from the problems in the previous ones and doesn't repeat the problems. e.g. If you are repeatedly finding that your questions need to be "moved to the correct substack" familiarise yourself with what is on topic Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 10:51
  • 6
    Reopening questions has nothing to do with upvotes/downvotes. If the question is properly edited it can be reopened regardless of its score.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 10:53
  • 27
    Most edits don't significantly improve the question. pestering people to confirm their votes would not be the solution you think it would and the core problem would still be there - people asking poor questions.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 10:59
  • 16
    So long as we invalidate upvotes too. Who said the edit was an improvement? Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 11:06
  • 4
    I think instead of putting restrictions on users who are voting on contributions, that we should put restrictions on users, who constantly submit contributions that are out of scope. Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 11:07
  • 13
    Why only close and downvotes? Why shouldn't it also cancel reopen and upvotes?
    – Tom
    Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 11:15
  • 7
    Honestly confused by this question, 145 questions, and it appears they have for the most part been well received and none have been closed for being out of scope and shockingly as a duplicate. This a case where the questions that are not being well received are being deleted? Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 11:15
  • 5
    But you still did not address many important comments: should we also invalidate up-votes? Yes, the system needs improvement, but I'm not sure that this blunt instrument that you're suggesting is it. Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 12:43
  • 12
    @RetoHöhener - I am strictly against the concept of it being a positive thing that users can ask a question, and then delete the question, instead of improving their question. I would argue that a user who asked a question, and deletes their question instead of improving it, is not responsive to community feedback. I believe this very negative process is part of the problem with the community and the source of a lot of heart act for all participants. Specifically those that answer questions, because until that answer gets an upvote, a question can be deleted by the author Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 12:45
  • 10
    I have seen it way too many times, users who are new ask a question, and because it’s not well received, they delete the question. This only results in them being discouraged because eventually after repeated deleted questions, they end up being question banned. Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 12:47
  • 8
    If you have posted question on the wrong site, then there is nothing that can be improved and also in such case downvotes were correctly cast.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 13:18
  • 8
    We cannot easily move questions to appropriate sites because people who know how one site works don't necessarily know on which site question would be appropriate. This is something person who asks needs to figure out by reading help center of potential sites.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 13:37
  • 8
    Your proposal does not scale well. I don't want to wake up to 40 notifications of edited posts from which none has improved to warrant vote removal. I am downvoting posts for which I don't expect they could be improved, for others I leave comment and follow them to see whether it is improved or not. But even that approach simply does not scale.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 13:46
  • 6
    The poster experience does not necessarily need improving if the result of their actions is through their own wrongdoing. To me this falls squarely in the field of bad communication. Too many people assume a lot about Stack Overflow and feel the pain of it afterwards because this is the one site on the web where your actions have immediate consequences. You can't learn as you go along, you essentially have to lurk for a long time before you start to hit buttons. That is a personal choice, not many people make that choice. Especially since they're free to not make it.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 14:52
  • 5
    I doubt moderators are the ones voting on and closing your questions. It's probably just normal community members with moderation privileges in the tags you're posting in (i.e. subject matter experts). Usually, when folks roll out the "Stack Overflow moderators are X" language, they don't realize they're actually referring to their peers.
    – ggorlen
    Commented Jul 25, 2023 at 16:50

1 Answer 1

11

Some sympathy first

I am hesitant to ask new questions because the experience is so jarring.

I understand your frustration, really. Every social media site ever that offers any explicit functionality for expressing disapproval of anything - anything that's automatically gathered as a statistical measure, and doesn't require the effort of typing out a response, I mean - has discovered that users hate it when content they generated is on the receiving end.

It doesn't matter what the practical consequences are. It doesn't matter how the feature is labelled, or described in the site documentation. It doesn't matter what the "regulars" say about the feature in meta spaces.

Users hate it.

It's bad enough that YouTube removed the feature after years of having it - and before that change, there were categories where if a video got more than 1% or so dislikes, that was evidence that something seriously controversial had occurred in the related community. Reddit seems to have solved the problem - at the cost of a lot of community trust - by publicizing that they add tons of fake votes in both directions to highly-viewed content, ostensibly so voting bots can't easily verify that they're having the desired effect.

It would be nice if we didn't have to downvote and close incoming bad questions to get them out of the way, to try to prevent users who steadfastly refuse to Get It, even with years of experience from chasing the perverse incentive of answering those questions. It would be nice if the site enabled us to advertise better, up front, why the most common kinds of new question that people attempt are in fact completely unsuitable for the site, so that they don't then run afoul of expectations.

In short, it would be nice if we could set a lower baseline, so that new users wouldn't constantly have to have the experience of being told their content is below that baseline.

But that's bad for business.

And then some perspective

Nowadays my questions seem much more likely to get closed

Somehow the consensus opinion of Stack Overflow off-site is that it's a toxic hell-hole where everyone downvotes everything all the time and is nasty to new users for no reason, and obviously those downvotes mean nobody is enforcing the Code of Conduct, yadda yadda.

Do you know what percentage of up/down votes cast on Stack Overflow are down?

11.8%. That's counting all the downvotes automatically cast by the Community user when someone flags spam.

Yes, it's gone up a little bit over time. Since the beginning of 2023, it's been 13.4%.

How about votes cast on questions asked in 2023 (never mind answers, and never mind adding to the pile of upvotes on old popular questions)? Surely those get obliterated?

Still only 32.9% down.

Do you know how many users cast more downvotes than upvotes?

About 14000, out of nearly two million who have voted.

The highest all-time question and answer scores are in the tens of thousands. The lowest only reach to around -100 or -200, and are really exceptional cases.

The voting culture on Stack Overflow is, in fact, extraordinarily positive. This is helped along by the fact that 125 reputation is required to cast downvotes, but only 15 reputation is required to cast upvotes. More than two million users are in that range - more than the number who have ever voted.

For comparison, "anonymous feedback" across the site history is about 40.4% down. When people aren't affecting the site's vote tallies and are just responding naturally to what they found with a search engine, they're considerably more harsh. (TODO: filter this to 2023 and/or questions only)

But you also are talking about close votes. Do you know what fraction of questions asked in 2023 got closed?

68.8% have stayed open. Of the ones that aren't open, 89.2% got deleted while a minority linger in the closed state. Most of that deletion [TODO: can this be evidenced?] was done by a very conservative automatic policy.

That's nowhere near enough cleanup relative to the quality of questions we receive.

Why not

and it is impossible to get them reopened or moved to the correct substack.... People vote close/down and move on.

I agree that it's very rare for closed questions to get re-opened, and that there are a lot of questions that potentially could get re-opened that are being missed. However, in absolute numbers, that seems to be much rarer than the case of questions that should be closed sitting open and gathering dust. There have been many times that I got some inspiration to try a search on Stack Overflow for, say, some fragment of an error message, and found hundreds if not thousands of unclosed, near-zero-score, mostly-unanswered, low quality questions with nearly identical titles. That is clearly not the site operating as intended.

Aside from the technical issues - Stack Overflow doesn't get to use a separate code base, as far as I know; a change like this would need to be rolled out for the entire network, and then possibly disabled in config for others who don't want it - many questions can't be fixed, and people who downvote questions often realize this at the time. They won't want to be bothered about it later.

If there's an obvious typo causing the described issue, for example, editing the question probably can't make it suitable (it would have to become a question about why something can't be typed a certain way, and that would have to be a serious question that a programmer could reasonably actually ask).

If the question was marked as a duplicate, that judgment is usually not entirely wrong. Sometimes a slight bit of interpretation is required. Sometimes a how-to question has an obvious answer by applying a well-known technique, but could also be answered in other ways because of specific details of the setup - and, yeah, those probably should be re-opened in general. But please first try reading the duplicate carefully in order to try to see how it applies to the issue that motivated your question.

The elephant in the room

This takes a pretty big emotional toll, as I often invest quite a bit of time to describe my problems.

This sentence is very revealing. I want to make two points about it.

First: "investing quite a bit of time" to investigate problems is part and parcel of being a programmer; getting others to be able to help with the problem requires communicating with them; communicating effectively about a problem entails describing it. These steps are really unavoidable, and thus expected. If time investment in a core part of your work results in emotional toll, that's not a problem we're equipped to deal with. (I understand that nowadays it is considered mean to suggest that others pursue a different line of work; but I think in some cases, in the long run, it would be less cruel.)

Second: referring to "my problems"... is problematic. Stack Overflow is for everyone... every question is for everyone. Questions are supposed to help to build a library of high-quality, detailed answers; high-quality answers are those which can be understood and helpful to many people, not just yourself. This entails that people should be able to encounter the same problem, as you describe it; recognize it as the same problem; and discover the question via searches informed by the problem.

Stack Overflow is not a discussion forum, nor a help desk or tutoring centre. We only tailor answers to you, insofar as "you" represent a typical person who would encounter the issue being addressed. We aren't interested in finding a bug for you, for example, because debugging is a standard task with common steps regardless of the underlying issue that everyone should learn to do, but the actual debugging process for any non-working code is idiosyncratic to that code. Failing to debug hinders both discovery (which you are supposed to attempt first as well) and recognition.

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  • 2
    No, they can't. Suggested edits are only supported for tag wikis on Meta sites. Yes, I agree that this rule is stupid.
    – pppery
    Commented Jul 26, 2023 at 2:52
  • 2
    Re "YouTube removed the feature": They didn't remove the feature; they removed the display. The creator can still see the number of downvotes (or whatever it called). Big advertisers, like Disney, didn't like the downvotes being displayed in public. Commented Jul 26, 2023 at 2:53
  • cont' - A source. In particular, at 03 min 06 secs. Commented Jul 26, 2023 at 3:01
  • 1
    OP suffers not because he has to provide a lot of essential details. But because people say "your hard work is worthless" with their reactions, and it's often difficult to find out how to improve. And possibly because the effective (but morally wrong) course of action after your question is downvoted is to repost it. Not that I have a solution to that; I only want to say that you didn't really understand the sentence you called "revealing". So your feedback on it, even if true, is not very useful.
    – anatolyg
    Commented Jul 26, 2023 at 11:49
  • "OP suffers not because he has to provide a lot of essential details. But because people say "your hard work is worthless" with their reactions" Yes. I understood that perfectly. This is a field where one's hard work often, objectively does turn out to be worthless - and compilers often aren't known for the clearest possible communication, either. Personal attachment is not useful here. Commented Jul 26, 2023 at 11:59

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