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Many questions in the close vote queue have comments asking for clarification, as well as close votes because they're "unclear" or "too broad" or "off-topic/questions seeking debugging help ...". The question may only be a few hours old.

How long is it appropriate to wait for clarification? Should close-voters vote differently, or hold off for longer, on questions with such comments? Is the software wired to take any of this into account?

The only prior art I found was this

https://scicomp.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/101/if-we-ask-a-poster-to-revise-or-clarify-their-question-or-answer-how-long-sho

which was written for a smaller and slower-moving community.

Personally I'd give it a day if I were interested in the question (which others should recognize because I took the time to comment). I've seen comments elsewhere on MSO which suggest that some expect clarification within hours. Seems like we should all get on the same page.

2

6 Answers 6

170

You should wait for zero seconds.

If a question is unclear, or otherwise requiring clarification to be answerable, vote to close it immediately. This ensures that low quality answers are not posted to incomplete questions, helps question authors to understand that their question needs to be improved, and even provides some additional guidance as to what they need to change.

If/when the question is edited to become answerable it can be reopened.

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  • 1
    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Sep 27, 2018 at 14:49
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    And, this ensures that stackoverflow remains a HOSTILE environment for new users who aren't savvy on the ways of posting good questions. Stackoverflow has that reputation and the reputation is well deserved, especially when people think like this answer says.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 27, 2022 at 17:28
  • 2
    And, I should add that this attitude is not something that the people at StackExchange thinks is overall good for the site. They are working on a better way to onboard new users. You can read about it here and here.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 27, 2022 at 23:19
  • 4
    The last sentence in this answer about "it can be reopened" simply doesn't happen in practice. Those who vote to close are not notified of edits and thus rarely come back to re-evaluate and the general population is not looking at closed questions. So, questions are very, very rarely reopened - the reopening process largely does not serve those who "fix" their questions. The OP is generally left to take what they learned needs to be fixed in their question and post a new question where it will then get a new chance to be evaluated.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 28, 2022 at 0:23
  • 4
    @jfriend00 Questions don't need to be reopened by the people that closed them, they can be reopened by anyone with the permission to do so. Questions aren't often reopened because they aren't often actually fixed properly, not because questions that are meaningfully fixed aren't ever reevaluated. The review queues resolve that.
    – Servy
    Mar 28, 2022 at 13:41
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    @Servy - I don't know where you think I want to just leave lousy questions sitting there. That is not what I've said anywhere. I want newbies to be given time and opportunity for coaching rather than having their question closed in 5 minutes with no feedback. If they don't take any of the coaching, then it should get closed. The new proposal is a bit light on details, but it does sound like it creates an opportunity for coaching before people jump on it and vote to close.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 28, 2022 at 21:11
  • 3
    @jfriend00 A question being closed is feedback on the problems with the question. It's impossible to close a question without the author being provided with the main problem with their question that they need to solve. Likewise, users are encouraged (and in my experience, very often do) provide additional information in the form of comments. That is the point of closing questions; to give feedback to the author on the problems with their question and to give them an opportunity to fix them. Refusing to close bad questions you see makes it harder for the authors to fix them.
    – Servy
    Mar 28, 2022 at 23:48
  • 3
    @jfriend00 You appear to think that closing a question is the same as deleting it. It is not. It doesn't prevent feedback, it both provides some and encourages more. Just ignoring questions and leaving them to languish, unclosed, but ignored, is worse for people looking to have their questions actually get a good answer, and yet you indicated you support doing just that when others advocated doing that instead.
    – Servy
    Mar 28, 2022 at 23:51
  • 2
    @jfriend00 So how is your suggestion of doing literally nothing and providing literally zero information better than providing at least a broad generalization of the category of the problem? (And again, a very large portion of closed questions get additional feedback.) You're right that people sometimes perceive it, as you have, as that their question is deleted and that they should give up. They therefore doing fix it, and it never merits reopening because it isn't fixed. Not telling people that their question has problems doesn't solve that problem though.
    – Servy
    Mar 29, 2022 at 0:27
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    @jfriend00 Closing questions isn't being intolerant; the purpose of closing question is to help them fix the question. Your assertion that everyone should just ignore the problems and stick their head in the sand doesn't make them go away, or help people get good answers.
    – Servy
    Mar 29, 2022 at 0:27
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    @jfriend00 It's very easy to get questions reopened when they actually fix their problems and become good questions. Closed questions aren't removed from the question lists, they do still show up in searches (unless explicitly filtered out with an advanced search option), edits to a question to fix its problems will move it to the front of the active questions list, giving it added attention, and most relevantly the reopen queue provides an opportunity for the author (or others) to get the attention of people specifically willing and able to reopen questions that have been fixed.
    – Servy
    Mar 29, 2022 at 0:29
  • 2
    @jfriend00 The reason so many closed questions don't get reopened is because people don't fix them. Lots of closed questions don't get edited, or if they do, it's just a trivial edit that doesn't address the core problems with the post and turn the post into a question that actually merits being reopened.
    – Servy
    Mar 29, 2022 at 0:31
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    @jfriend00 Unsurprisingly, you're once again stating provably false things. I said you shouldn't wait to close questions that merit closure. I said nothing about not helping them. You are the one who have advocated here that people do nothing and provide no feedback and just ignore problematic questions. I've argued that they should be given feedback. Closing a question doesn't prevent people from commenting with additional information. I've encouraged it, numerous times, and never discouraged it, unlike you. Closing problematic question is helping. Ignoring problems isn't.
    – Servy
    Mar 29, 2022 at 1:39
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    Closing a question doesn't prevent people from posting comments explaining a questions problems. Closing a question doesn't prevent people from posting comments explaining how to improve it to make it answerable. Closing a question doesn't prevent people from asking clarifying questions to better understand it. Closing a question doesn't prevent people from editing it to address problems others can fix such a formatting or phrasing. It only (temporarily) prevents low quality answers from a question not yet ready to be answered.
    – Servy
    Mar 29, 2022 at 1:39
  • 1
    @jfriend00 And yeah, I know it sucks when a system tells you that you've done something wrong. No one likes being told that they did something wrong, that they made a mistake, that their contribution was problematic, or that they broke the rules. It doesn't mean that you wait an hour before telling them. That doesn't make it better. It makes it worse. It might make you feel good to tell other people that giving feedback on a question is hostile and everyone should just ignore problems and hope they go away, but it doesn't help people.
    – Servy
    Mar 29, 2022 at 1:46
66

Cast your close vote immediately.

The whole point of closure is to put the question on hold while the OP improves it. Waiting just delays the inevitable for most questions, and handicaps the closure system.

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    If that is the purpose, then either most questions are really bad and don't deserve reopening, or we are faster at closing than reopening. I honestly don't even know how reponening works. Do we have reopenening queues ? Dec 15, 2016 at 16:17
  • 1
    @HopefullyHelpful Yes we have a reopening queue.
    – Raedwald
    Sep 7, 2018 at 17:34
  • 2
    Closing a question does not put it on hold. It sends the question to purgatory, never to return. Close voters don't get notified of changes to the question. They hardly ever consider changes to a question and reopen. Once a question is closed, it's dead. When working with users whose question got closed, I advise them to repost a fixed question because it's highly unlikely the question will ever get reopened. The closer voters are gone. FYI, this is one of the reason that stackoverflow remains a HOSTILE environment for new users who are still learning how to post a good question.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 27, 2022 at 17:31
  • 2
    @jfriend00: I'm not sure how you fix that. For the most part, the onus is on the new user to learn and understand the norms of the site before participating. This is true of all participatory sites, not just Stack Overflow. The alternative is to individually hand-hold each new user that comes to the site, and we're simply not equipped to do that. Mar 27, 2022 at 18:27
  • 3
    What you're seeing is not hostility; it is rudeness. Coming to an Internet site and participating without making the slightest effort at understanding the site's culture is not simply rude, it is also lazy. You don't want to be that guy. Mar 27, 2022 at 18:31
  • @RobertHarvey - Well, the folks at StackExchange don't agree with you. They recognize that SO and other sites in the network have a pretty horrible reputation and experience for new users. They want to do something about that because it would make the site more useful for all. See here and here.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 27, 2022 at 18:34
  • 3
    @jfriend00: Those are good first steps. So is a better onboarding process. Of course, none of that helps the individual who clicks past all of it and still manages to ask a poor question on the main site. And of course, none of that changes the way close votes are properly used. Mar 27, 2022 at 19:35
  • @RobertHarvey - It remains to be seen what they try to implement here, but if an experienced user steps in and engages with the author of a poorly written question both try to understand what the real question was and in the interest of educating the OP on what it takes to make their question better, I would hope the question doesn't get bashed with downvotes and closevotes immediately while someone is trying to help. That, is NOT what happens today. People love to throw drive-by close votes and down votes even when someone is engaged to help and clarify and hopefully fix the question.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 27, 2022 at 23:14
  • @RobertHarvey - And, then the question gets closed right out from under you, even though you're in the process of helping them fix it, leaving both the OP and the one trying to help with a sour taste on their SO experience. There must be a better way if someone volunteers to help a newbie turn a bad question into a decent one. Oh, and the reopen process pretty much never works so editing a closed question is pointless 99.9% of the time.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 27, 2022 at 23:16
51

Why wait more than zero seconds?

I guess people think they should "give the asker a chance" to fix the question before voting to close. This is fundamentally wrong headed.

  • The asker had every opportunity to compose a well written question before they posted it. Why give them even more time after posting it? Being "nice" only encourages people to post first and then think.
  • Voting to close a question does not immediately delete it. The system prevents answers but still allows the asker to fix it. So even if the question were closed within seconds of being asked, the asker still has an opportunity to fix it and get it re-opened.
  • People ask questions because they want answers. This is especially true for the numerous new members who post poor quality questions. The only weapon we have for making those people fix their crap questions is to withhold answers from them. The only way the community as a whole can deny answers is by closing a question. If you care about the quality of an SE site it is your duty to immediately vote to close bad questions.
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    In one sense, it would be nice if the "low quality question" filter automatically closed questions which it thought low quality, with a note saying "ask for guidance". If the asker bothers to seek guidance (whether in comments, chat or meta) then it bodes well that they might listen to any guidance offered. Like I say, in one sense...
    – ClickRick
    Jun 12, 2014 at 13:51
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    @ClickRick First timers can't use comments, chat, nor child meta. How should first timers seek guidance other than outside the SE network entirely? Nov 8, 2014 at 5:13
  • I would argue your first bullet point. I have carefully written questions, double checked, and submitted only to find out that I have formatting or flow problems. The issue is that you are writing in one format, and only viewing after you submit. The fact that it updates below as you write is only really usable for short questions without code (it always scrolls off the screen).
    – Sablefoste
    May 11, 2016 at 17:32
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    @Sablefoste. You can always scroll down before clicking submit, so your argument in favor of laziness by posters doesn't really hold water. Apr 25, 2017 at 22:14
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    @Damian Herrick First timers should act like professional or enthusiast programmers and follow the links presented to them telling them how to ask questions here and what each close reason means. If they can't be bothered to do that, they have no business being here.
    – Raedwald
    Sep 7, 2018 at 17:38
  • Why is there an option and suggestion to clarify or Edit, when something must be closed so quickly, or MUST be closed so quickly.. My question would be, why can't SO go slower in some cases ? Here I read "it would handicap the closure system".. Come on ! handicap what ? Members are not computers, we are computer programmers. People.
    – Goodies
    Feb 24, 2021 at 15:51
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    @PM2Ring Surely, you could have done so with an edit that does not change the author's intent, as I've now done.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Mar 29, 2022 at 8:21
1

This answer is to discuss the issues relating to closing the question in 0 seconds. "Why wait for more than zero seconds?" Here's why.

  • Gold badge holders: Once a close vote is cast, the OP edits a question to clarify and you find it's a duplicate, you can't close it as duplicate again. I'm sure most gold badge holders prefer the dupe hammer than other close reasons.

  • Better close reason feedback: Since you can't retract your close vote and recast it and multiple close reasons are not allowed, Sometimes you would want to give a better reason for your close vote. Commenting opens up direct interaction/contention from the OP and is better avoided.

  • Reopen queue tardiness: It's painfully slow to get a question reopened, if at all. SOCVR and chat rooms help speed things up. But even then sometimes it takes days especially in tag chat rooms (relatively niche tag). In SOCVR, you have to contend with users without expertise in your tag that this question is worth reopening. The whole process leaves a bad taste. Sometimes you have a great answer and question is great too (except for a minor clarification), closing and reopening and going through the whole process to post a great answer is not worth the effort.

Related:

We need to improve the chances of reopening closed questions

Unless the reopen queue is fixed, You can't convince borderline voters to cast close votes without reservation.

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    I agree that the reopen process is not useful. The people that cast close votes are never notified when the question gets edited so, even if they were so inclined to reevaluate after edits (which most probably aren't anyway), they probably won't even know it was edited. And, just practical experience on the site says that it's pointless to hope for a reopen. Practically speaking, it's better to post a new question with better content and that's what I recommend newbies do after they get a question closed.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 27, 2022 at 23:22
  • @jfriend00 Related: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/401960
    – TheMaster
    Mar 28, 2022 at 10:36
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    The close queue is where questions go to die. Most questions need some clarification so according to the zero-second crowd, most questions should be closed. Many can unilaterally close while reopening takes 3 votes. You don't need to leave a comment to close, so the poster and others can't even ask you to clarify the close. Closers are not notified of edits and are not forced in some way to reevaluate the close. I am all for closing either inherently bad questions or after clarifying questions are ignored. But since closing is much easier than reopening, not right away.
    – tdelaney
    May 18 at 15:50
  • @tdelaney I agree. I don't understand Many can unilaterally close while reopening takes 3 votes. Those gold hammers can close as well as reopen with a single vote.
    – TheMaster
    May 18 at 16:37
-2

Stack Overflow has a bad reputation for new users. It's seen as a pretty hostile place. If you don't post a good question, you get hammered with downvotes or close votes. Seasoned vets may have survived the trial-by-fire here and now see it as a rite of passage, but the SO community loses tons of potential users because of the way newbies are treated and that reputation keeps others from even trying.

It should be possible to maintain or improve overall question quality, but have a better process for newbie users who are still learning how to write a good SO question.

The folks at Stack Exchange appear to be working on such a system to better onboard new users which is currently being referred to as "staging ground". You can read about it here and here.

Some tolerance for people who don't have great communication skills, but who are willing to engage and clarify would also be useful.

Here's my process for dealing with an unclear question.

  1. If the question is so far from describing anything relevant to SO (beyond salvage IMO), then I may just downvote and close vote regardless of how long it's been since it was posted. I will try to leave a comment with a link to how to write a good question or a link to what's on topic here in hopes that the newbie at least sees that as something important to read before posting again.

  2. If it was posted more than a couple hours ago and people have asked clarifying questions in the comments and the OP is not engaging or responding, I vote to close and may downvote also. In my opinion, if people engaged to help and you weren't around to engage and the question doesn't stand on its own, then it should be closed. When I'm feeling generous, I will leave a comment telling the OP that people tried to engage to help, but they weren't around to respond and on SO, you have to be around for at least the next hour after posting in case people don't completely understand what you were asking. Don't post and then go to sleep or out to dinner. Post when you can check back multiple times in the next hour.

  3. If the question is new (like posted in the last 30 minutes) and has some skeleton of an on-topic issue and I have time to be around over the next 30 minutes, I will engage and ask some clarifying questions in the comments. If no response in the next 30-60 minutes, then go to #2 above and close. If the OP engages and is starting to clarify what they meant, I will try to coach them on how to edit their question to fix it and I will hope that other drive-by readers (who aren't participating in the coaching) don't just close the question that we're working on (though that happens a lot).

  4. If the question is new and others have engaged with trying to clarify the question, I will just skip on by and hope that others can continue to work with the OP to clarify. I personally see no point in dropping a downvote or close vote on a question that is "being worked". If the question stays in bad shape over time (engagement to fix stops or question is just never edited to fix it), it will get cleaned up by others. But, there's no great service to be done for anyone, by hammering the question while it's being worked on.

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    How many questions can you handle with this approach? How often do you think it works for the question or better yet the asker long-term? Mar 28, 2022 at 6:29
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    @MisterMiyagi - I think it works a lot better for everyone in the long term. The asker gets a chance to get coaching on how to fix their question and often gets an answer to their question and isn't left with a bad impression of SO. I'm not sure how that is worse than an avalanche of close votes with no feedback at all for the OP and I see lots of ways its better. I handle the questions I see like this that I have time for. If others did the same, it would scale just fine.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 28, 2022 at 21:14
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    Re "Don't post and then go to sleep or out to dinner.": The question wizard sets up an expectation of a time scale of several days (it talks about getting notification by email the next day) and says nothing about the real time scale of minutes to hours—at least the last time I checked (it could have changed). Mar 28, 2022 at 22:40
  • @PeterMortensen - The staging ground will presumably have a completely different expectation for timing and will depend upon how many people are acting as reviewers. My comment about "don't post and then go to sleep" was about today's questions that are immediately public and can easily get closed within 30 minutes if the OP isn't responsive to clarify or fix the question. So, I advise people today that they should be online and checking in several times for the next hour after posting a question if they don't want their question to get downvoted or closed for being non-responsive to problems.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 28, 2022 at 23:29
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    Closure of the question is the process. Closing the question prevents answers from rolling in, which will be invalidated by any edits that are made to the question. Closure doesn't mean that you are not allowed to work with the author to help them improve their post. In fact, that's exactly what you should do after closing a question. Once it gets to a point where it meets our requirements, you should even vote to reopen it. But you should not hold off on closing while this back-and-forth happens, as that creates new problems. What you're suggesting here contradicts site policy.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Mar 29, 2022 at 5:42
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    This has nothing to do with friendliness or new users, and the suggestion that it does is, frankly, offensive. The requirements apply equally to all users. Now, of course, if you can edit a post to fix it yourself, without any involvement from the asker, then, no, there is no reason to close it. That would be simply punitive (and wrong, since, after the edits, there's no justifiable reason to close the question). But if you need input/clarification from the asker, you are expected to vote to close until that is provided. No exceptions. Closure indicates it is "being worked" on.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Mar 29, 2022 at 5:43
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    @CodyGray - Which exact part of my answer contradicts site policy?
    – jfriend00
    Mar 29, 2022 at 6:00
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    The "process" you describe. Specifically, the part where you describe waiting some time before close-voting and/or not close-voting unclear questions.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Mar 29, 2022 at 7:08
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    @CodyGray - Where exactly is the site policy spelled out that it is my obligation to close vote something when someone is working with the OP to clarify the question? Please point me to the specific page on SO's site that says that.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 29, 2022 at 7:21
  • 1
    That's an oddly specific request; no, there's no page that's going to say that. However, you can see clearly on this very page that the policy which has widespread support from the community is that questions that are unclear should be closed immediately. This is the entire design of the feature, as I have carefully explained in multiple earlier comments. Can we force you to follow it? Well, I guess not. We can't effectively force users to do anything. But that doesn't make it not policy.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Mar 29, 2022 at 8:19
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    @CodyGray Community consensus cannot be described as official site policy.
    – TheMaster
    Mar 29, 2022 at 8:45
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    Where do you think site policy gets set, @TheMaster? The site is run by the community. If you're unhappy with that, then take it from a moderator, which is the closest thing you're going to get to setting and enforcing site policy.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Mar 29, 2022 at 9:03
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    That's what I was wondering. Perhaps this isn't actually written down. It's just the way some set of people like to do things. And, the audience here in Meta is far, far, far from an average set of SO users so I take a vote here only as what high reputation users want - not representative of the avg user at all. The avg reputation in this question alone is over 200k.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 29, 2022 at 20:21
  • As the leadership of SO has found, the experience for new users is often not very good. Slamming questions closed and mass downvoting within minutes of posting without any specific feedback directly to the OP on what they need to fix or any engagement to welcome them and help them fix their question leads to a crappy user experience and is why SO has the unfriendly reputation for newbies that it has. Fortunately, the folks at SO are looking beyond what's in this set of answers from high rep users.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 29, 2022 at 20:23
-12

So we've got 3 answers for zero seconds. I don't like them.

Unless I think a question is really bad I'll leave a comment and bookmark it and come back in an hour or so. If I haven't gotten an intelligent response then I close vote.

Reason: close votes can be revoked, but if you revoke your close vote you can't cast it again.

1
  • 3
    The fact that this answer has so many downvotes (along with the tenor of the other answers here) shows the bias (among the meta crowd) against any patience or tolerance for helping newbies get established here and learn the ropes. Apparently, it's figure it out on your own or get out of here and I'm not going to help you in the least bit. No wonder SO has such a bad reputation for new users. I think that's unfortunate and ultimately limits how many people SO can be useful for.
    – jfriend00
    Mar 27, 2022 at 23:25

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