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When, exactly does a question about "software tools commonly used by programmers" become off-topic for Stack Overflow?

I would want to invite the users to come up with enforceable guidance for particular server software, and until then, to stop randomly picking any close-vote reason in order to get rid of questions they don't like.

Example: IIS

On Windows, we have the web server software called IIS. It is the de facto web server for anyone who has coded a web app in C# for the past 20 years or so. There are many questions on Stack Overflow about how to configure certificates, redirects, content-types, web applications, "bindings" (host headers) to sites, and so on.

Is IIS a "tool commonly used by programmers"? In my line of work, it definitely is.

When does an IIS question become off-topic? When the ASP.NET Core Module (ANCM) doesn't start because of a configuration error, the cause is the same on my development machine as it is on the production server. It is configured in XML (on-topic?), or through native DLLs (on-topic?), through PowerShell (on-topic?) or through the UI (off-topic?).

Is it on-topic when the error occurs on the development machine and off-topic when the same issue happens on the production server?

Besides IIS, there's many other tools used by developers at development-time but also by administrators in production and sometimes even by end users on their workstation, such as:

  • Docker / Kubernetes
  • Apache
  • MySQL / SQL Server / PostgreSQL
  • MySQL Workbench / SQL Server Management Studio / pgAdmin
  • Visual Studio / VS Code / Notepad++

Tag guidance

The tag guidance is often unclear and appears to be written by frustrated people and not enforced consistently, if at all.

Here's (an excerpt from) :

KUBERNETES QUESTIONS MUST BE SPECIFICALLY RELATED TO SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT. Configuration and deployment is off-topic here.

Not clear at all. When is a k8s question "specifically related to software development"? If I'm hosting an app I built in it? On my machine alone? Doesn't k8s require configuration to do anything at all, otherwise it just sits there? What can I ask about k8s itself, then?

:

For questions about building and running Docker containers. DOCKER QUESTIONS MUST BE SPECIFICALLY RELATED TO SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT. Suitable topics include Dockerfiles, Docker Compose, and architecture. As a rule of thumb, if your question is about something happening inside the container, it's probably on-topic here; if it's outside the container, it is probably off-topic.

On the surface this appears to be a better description, but also extremely contradictory: Dockerfiles, Docker Compose and architecture by definition occur outside the container. When is a Docker question on-topic?

:

Use this tag if and only if .htaccess content is directly involved in the topic. We know many people are using .htaccess, but kindly ask the members of the community to not use this tag, unless you know it is on-topic in your question. Also notice what the tag has to say about questions about configuring Apache httpd and their potential off-topicness on Stack Overflow

Blah blah blah this tag might be off-topic unless you know it's not. How does one know?

Use this tag (along with an appropriate programming-language tag) for programming questions relating to the Apache HTTP Server. Do not use this tag for questions about other Apache Foundation products. Note that server configuration questions are usually a better fit on https://serverfault.com

When is an Apache HTTP Server question a "programming question"? What is usually in the last sentence?

From the extended info for :

Please note that https://serverfault.com/ is another StackExchange[sic] website, which can be used for more specific server installation and configuration related problems.

Can be used for "more specific" problems. So Stack Overflow is fine for unspecific problems?

Summing up

Frankly, it's a gigantic mess, and all of this starts with almost as many opinions as we have members.

Can we somehow get everyone aligned on what is and what isn't on-topic in regard to questions about "software tools commonly used by programmers"? When, exactly, do we shoo someone towards Server Fault, Webmasters, DBA and possibly others?

And when that's done, can we gather a couple of people and rewrite the guidance for popular tags?

Related questions

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  • 2
    "Can we somehow get everyone aligned on what is and what isn't on-topic in regard to questions about "software tools commonly used by programmers"?" - ah the dream, to be in agreement about something. At this point I am very confident that it is a "NO". If it hasn't happened in the past two decades, it isn't going to happen ever. At best it would become an empire VS the rebel alliance type of situation.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 11:18
  • I'm afraid you're right @Gimby, so we're forever gonna keep seeing people ANGRILY WRITING INFO THAT'S IGNORED IN TAG DESCRIPTIONS and people going "I don't like this question" followed by a close-vote for a question that many others deem on-topic.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 11:24
  • Maybe the people who created experts exchange were not so wrong after all :)
    – Gimby
    Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 12:11
  • @Gimby I don't get that jump to conclusions?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 14:23
  • 1
    The root problem is that some users just don't know (or care) what Stack Overflow is about. They can ask a non-programming question in literally any tag. Then there are users that don't know (or care) what tags are for. If they ask a valid question about some web application code that (irrelevantly) happens to run in IIS they just add the tag. With all this attention for easier onboarding nowadays I'm afraid we're not going to tighten any rules here any time soon. Unless these efforts will result in users getting some sort of (automated) help in choosing appropriate tags. Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 15:43
  • Count Dooku was a visionary, cut down in his prime by the Jedi enforcer! Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 19:29
  • @user458 I don't speak Star Wars, what's your point?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 20:12
  • It's not just Empire VS Rebels. Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 20:24
  • @user458 and who are the Empire and Rebels in this story?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 20:36
  • @Gert based on your comment I assume you're in the "web server/containerization software is always off-topic" camp?
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 20:36
  • That's getting into philosophy. Everybody is the good guy in their story. Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 20:38
  • FYI: That htaccess question got closed as a dupe of this question by Machavity. There it seems that some kind of consensus has already been reached 12 years ago
    – Lino
    Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 21:21
  • @Lino see my earlier question What weight do Meta discussions have?. The "consensus" reached in the question you link to is questionable at best. It goes like "well ackshually it's not web server configuration, it's web site configuration and you even use RegEx for that, RegEx is on-topic, right?", which is just ... not convincingly nor applicable. See also Cody's comment under the accepted answer.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 6:31
  • 1
    @CodeCaster Experts Exchange had a bit of gatekeeping going on through the fact that it had a paid membership. And from that, Stack Overflow was born. I've never really reached any kind of personal consensus on which model is more effective. Stack Overflow worked swimmingly for a good few years but it's kind of starting to outgrow itself, IMO. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing and too much content and too many opinions surely fits the bill.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 11:08

4 Answers 4

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The tags you mentioned are the grey area. They are neither off-topic nor on-topic. In situations like these, where a tag can be on-topic for multiple sites, we tend to keep the questions where they are asked. Maybe the question would get more attention on another site, but the asker decided it's related to programming and they chose to ask here.

Generally, writing software is on-topic here. Hosting or using it isn't. The only time we allow questions about using software is when it's a tool designed for programmers or used primarily in the development process.

It's not enforceable and can only be decided on case by case basis.

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  • 6
    "writing software is on-topic here. Hosting or using it isn't" - but in order to write software, one usually has to host it (for any definition of "host") locally. There's often a runtime involved in that, or the software gets hosted within a web server. Runtimes and webservers throw errors unique to software development. But they can also occur in production. It's just an unmaintainable situation we're in, and I don't like people randomly hitting "close" because they don't want questions that border on systems administration, while the exact same issues can occur during development.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 10:09
  • 'The tags you mentioned are the grey area' I think that's kinda the OP's point, if its in a grey area then people should be a little less quick to close as off-topic. I'm not sure how likely it is that better guidance would fix the issue though.
    – Adrian K
    Commented Sep 24 at 21:05
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If you're thinking rigidly "it has this tag so it must be off-topic!" then you're getting it thoroughly wrong. It's not about the tags, it's about the questions! If the question is mainly about programming relating to a given tag, then it is (probably) on-topic on Stack Overflow. If the question is mainly not about programming, then it is (probably) off-topic.

Yes, there will be grey areas that require judgement calls. That's why we don't just write some simple Perl scripts to do all moderation and call it a day.

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  • 6
    That's not what I'm thinking, what gave that impression? Why do you respond like there's two options, either lawlessness or robotic application of law? My point is that this grey area could use some more definition to stop asking such a question to be the coin toss that it currently is.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 20:12
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The more descriptive you're gonna be with these rules, the more loopholes you'll be adding.

I don't think it's possible to create a set of rules that clearly defines all these cases, because every single tag has its own edge cases.

Imo, considering tags like .htaccess to be entirely off-topic is ridiculous. They don't come close to passing burnination criteria, as mentioned in the question you linked.

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    I agree with your first sentence, but leaving "commonly used by programmers" the only qualification, to be interpreted however the close-voter likes, is also wrecking the site. Asking an .htaccess/IIS/Docker/k8s question is like a coin toss. Does a "I only want to see questions about code" user see the question? Your loss, have a downvote and a closevote. It's annoying and off-putting.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 18, 2023 at 9:36
  • The burnination criteria are not that great IMO. I can see how questions about a .htaccess file are about programming insofar as someone might have to write a regex; but in these cases, the fact that the regex will go into a .htaccess file doesn't inform the solution to the problem. Aside from that, if using .htaccess to configure a server is supposed to be on topic, why even have a separate Server Fault site in the first place? What, only for hardware questions? Commented Jul 26, 2023 at 0:32
  • Yea, this is not the place to discuss the burnination process, @Karl.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 26, 2023 at 5:39
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Is IIS a "tool commonly used by programmers"? In my line of work, it definitely is.

This requirement, IMO, is misstated, or unclearly stated in the documentation. Obviously we aren't going to take questions about Notepad because it can be used to write code. We aren't going to take questions about specific Linux distros because programmers use computers that use them as the operating system. We aren't going to take questions about the maintenance of hardware, despite that programmers definitely "commonly use" computers that are composed of that hardware.

I propose that "commonly used by programmers" is intended to require both:

  • Is use of the tool specifically associated with programming? That is, are programmers (or, perhaps, "programmers using a specific programming language") significantly more likely than generic computer owners, to have and use the tool?

  • When programmers use the tool, is that usage normally specifically for the purpose of making it easier (or more pleasant) to write the code?

That seems to reflect the consensus from the related questions you found, too.

Full disclosure: my personal preference would be that we didn't accept these sorts of questions e.g. about IDEs at all. But I know that they're clearly included already, and I accept that I'm not going to swing consensus my way. But even then, I'm pretty sure that questions asking e.g. what the keyboard shortcut is for a particular IDE menu item would not be accepted.

When the ASP.NET Core Module (ANCM) doesn't start because of a configuration error, the cause is the same on my development machine as it is on the production server. It is configured in XML (on-topic?), or through native DLLs (on-topic?), through PowerShell (on-topic?) or through the UI (off-topic?).

First off: is a running server required in order to do the development work?

Regarding the various configuration methods: the configuration technique isn't what makes the question on- or off-topic. Topicality is determined by the actual question. If the purpose is to configure the web server, then what matters is whether we accept that sort of configuration question. Normally, we don't.

Clearly, if someone proposes to fix a configuration by editing an XML file, it's possible to end up asking an on-topic question while doing that, because of e.g. an error parsing the XML that leads to a question about why such and such XML data is malformed. But that is a question about the XML itself, not about the configuration task the XML serves. Similarly for native DLLs - if the plan is to write code in, say, C to make a new DLL, and something goes wrong during compilation, there could be a valid C question that isn't about IIS at all. As for PowerShell, we have precedent: individual commands aren't scripts.

The tag guidance is often unclear and appears to be written by frustrated people and not enforced consistently, if at all.

"People don't enforce rule X consistently" is absolutely not a reason on Stack Overflow to abandon or reconsider the text or interpretation of rule X. Nothing really gets consistently enforced around here, realistically speaking, and it's always been that way. Just look how many blatantly opinion-based questions from 2009 with hundreds of upvotes are still getting dealt with in 2023.

People write tag guidance in all caps in the hopes that, in the fraction of a second that the popup flickers on screen while OP is blindly mashing in autocompleted suggested tags, it might cause enough of a visual distraction to make OP slow down and reconsider. I don't think it can be considered a sign of frustration. However, if it is the result of frustration, I think it's very understandable that people are frustrated because the tag guidance gets ignored all the time - both by the people asking the questions, and by everyone else viewing the question and failing to curate it by removing inappropriate tags and VTC off-topic questions.

What can I ask about k8s itself, then?

Did you try reading the other half of the tag guidance that you left out here? "A good rule of thumb is, if it happens outside the pod, it's probably off-topic. If it's about code running inside the pod, it's probably OK." Seems pretty clear to me, even though I've never used the thing myself and have no idea what "the pod" is - I assume that if I had to use it, I would immediately be confronted with the need to understand that concept.

Point being, the sub-community of k8s users on Stack Overflow have apparently actually thought about this issue and come to a resolution among themselves. (It also very much parallels the tag description you quoted in full and described as better; so I'm a bit confused here.) If you think that issue needs a more public hashing-out, that seems very much worth asking about specifically on Meta. Or maybe try searching the chat rooms or something.

That said, I personally (perhaps unsurprisingly) think we would probably be better off without that tag, along with the others you've cited. If something happens "inside the [docker] container / [kubernetes] pod / etc.", by my limited understanding of what these tools are for, I can't fathom why the fact that they're in those places is relevant. Python code is Python code regardless of how it's deployed.

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  • I really don't know where to begin in answering all the points in your answer. Regarding shortcuts, there's this 233K views question: stackoverflow.com/questions/12066739. Re: k8s/Docker: the cut was intentional, as both have the same text, and you're misquoting me, I specifically said: "appears to be a better description, but also extremely contradictory: Dockerfiles, Docker Compose and architecture by definition occur outside the container". The configuration of containers happens outside the container, yet is one of the most asked and answered aspect thereof on SO.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 6:25
  • But tl;dr: if I want better text in those tags, you're advising me to ask per-tag questions, either on Meta or in chatrooms? Sure, but before that, I would want to see if there's consensus to be reached. Given the voting on this question I'm frankly not interested therein.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jul 19, 2023 at 6:28

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