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Firstly, I was banned from posting on Stack Overflow. I asked a question that didn't have enough content in it (I think) to be considered a high-quality question. I didn't receive any warnings in my inbox or on my questions and thought I was asking okay questions until I got banned for one of them.

On this site, I thought it was for ban appeals which just seemed like they made sense, but the appeal got taken down. I decided to look around and found out that it was like the normal Stack Overflow, but seemingly for those that were banned. I saw a few questions and they were all about Python scripting, so I assumed I could ask the same questions here as in the normal Stack Overflow, but my question got taken down again. The moderator that took down the question also assumed I was trying to get around a ban even though I wasn't, which just came across as rude.

Do you see where I'm going with this? This site is confusing and unforgiving. Humans make mistakes and deserve to have multiple chances instead of being outright banned without warning. At least two chances would be ideal, with the first offense being shown clearly when the user logs in, and outlining everything they did wrong and how they can improve later on.

This meta version of the normal site should also have some kind of popup or something indicating exactly what to do, because I'm still not entirely sure what it is about. I've seen people say it is about Stack Overflow, but what do they mean by that? Is it just for questions on how to use the site? It seems simple enough to me to not require an entirely new version of Stack Overflow for this.

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    When you draft your question on Meta, on the right it says, "Is your question about the Stack Overflow community or website?" There is also help available if you click the "?" icon in the top bar. Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 20:49
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    More specifically, in mentioned help there is a question straight in popup "What's Meta?", and if you'd read it instead of assuming what it is and what it is not, you'd not have problems with "rude" moderators.
    – markalex
    Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 20:54
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    Why would we have a site for banned users... The whole point of being banned, is that you're banned. The system determined you weren't making useful contributions, why would it assume that you would be able to do so on an oxymoronic site for banned users.
    – vandench
    Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 20:56
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    "I'm still not entirely sure what it is about" - I'm curious about what steps you have taken to find the answer to this question yourself. Either Googling "What is the purpose of Stack Overflow Meta" or checking out the help center should be give you the answer. We do expect you to do some research when asking questions (both here on Meta and on the main site).
    – Ivar
    Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 21:04
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    "Humans make mistakes and deserve to have multiple chances instead of being outright banned without warning." A well-respected mod commented on your last post and provided a screenshot showing you received three (3) separate warnings. Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 21:08
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    "because it did come off as rude anyway" - that's why we really try not to comment on posts... (mostly failing that on meta... but we'll get better. There is generally nothing can be said to a user under q-ban that they would not interpret as "rude"... So hopefully you will not see any more comments and it should make you feel better. Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 21:25
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    I'm sorry to say, but this sounds like user error upon user error. Meta has a lot of places where it describes what it is, and what it isn't. On top of that, the absence of any language-specific tag should be a strong hint.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 21:25
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    "I didn't receive any warnings in my inbox" they don't go to your inbox, when you go to post a new question and you're close to a ban you are warned then; that you didn't read those 3 warnings means you didn't act on them. "I thought it was for ban appeals" bans aren't appealable; that are automated and not even a mod can revoke them. The way to get out of a ban is to improve the quality of your content, or when you post your next question (in 6~ months) make sure it's a really good quality question.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 22:24
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    "Humans make mistakes and deserve to have multiple chances" you've been given 17 chances at least; how is that not multiple chances? You were warned 3 times as well, which is 1 more than your request for 2 chances. It was all there.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 22:27
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    "I never saw the warnings as I said many times" that you didn't read them when they were displayed to you, on three occasions, isn't the system's fault. You've already admitted in this post you don't read the text on screen when posting a question. "Irreversible automated banning is REALLY not a good idea" it isn't; if you improve the quality of your content, and receive votes to confirm that, the ban goes away.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 23:01
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    "improve the quality of your content" suggests editing existing content to improve it, not asking new question. Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 23:12
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    “I asked a question that didn't have enough content in it (i think) to be considered a high-quality question.” - You absolutely were not question banned due to a single poorly received question. You asked 16 questions, potentially more than that, and received essentially zero upvotes. You were also told, that absolutely nobody, can manually lift your question ban. Only your positive contributions, can lift your question ban, and you are given one question every 6 months to do that. Your previous question on this community still exists by the way. You were also given 16+ chances. Commented Jul 6, 2023 at 23:26
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    That sounds like the closer to a comment I made earlier. I'm not a moderator. It wasn't a threat. It wasn't an insult. It was a statement of fact that was possibly a bit too cold-hearted. Note: You don't have the informed badge, so you have yet to take the tour and learn the bare minimum about how to use Stackoverflow. Here's another cold, hard fact: People will not take complaints about not knowing how to use a tool seriously when they can see that you have not looked at the manual. Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 2:11
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    It also looks like someone has gone and upvoted all your content; note that those votes are very likely to be removed. If you asked a friend to perform those votes, you could easily find yourselves both suspended.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 8:31
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    @YozyOpto, do you mean that any warning not to do something automatically equals to accusation of doing that? Sounds a bit unclever. Does this spread to all warnings for you? When you read "Remember, if you kill somebody, you'll go to jail" do you feel being accused of murder?
    – markalex
    Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 18:03

1 Answer 1

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Firstly, I was banned from posting on Stack Overflow. I asked a question that didn't have enough content in it (i think) to be considered a high-quality question.

First: you are only banned from asking questions, and you can still ask one question per six months. In particular, you are still able to edit your existing questions, and to answer questions.

The main objection here: no, you asked many questions that failed to meet standards, and people repeatedly used the comments to explain to you specifically what the issues were with these questions. In some cases, they were closed as duplicates - while duplicate questions have some value to the site if you conceive of the question in a fundamentally different way, you are expected to try to search the site before asking.

The first un-deleted question I see in your history was actually closed by me; we get this sort of question all the time, which is why there are so many duplicates (not even counting deleted ones) of the reference canonical. If I copy and paste your question title into a search engine I can immediately get tons of useful information, even without specifying that it's for Python (it helps that this issue is particular to Python, of course).

But more importantly, you pasted hundreds of lines of code and expected others to fish around and figure out which line is "line 362". This is not a reasonable way to approach people for help on the Internet, even if we did offer a help desk, which we do not.

It also comes across that you are hoping to make yourself sound sympathetic and more deserving of help ("I've been staring at my code for hours looking for the problem"). There are two issues with that:

  • We care about directed effort, and about seeing what you learned from that effort (did you know which line is line 362? Did you try looking there? The error told you that there is a problem with indentation; what indentation do you think that line had? Did you think that was the correct indentation? Why? Specifically what was your reasoning?). We care about these things because they make the question better.

  • We don't actually care about "effort"; the reason your question does or does not "deserve" an answer has everything to do with the site's standards for question quality, and nothing to do with you as a person, your willingness to spend time on a problem etc.

Bluntly, your questions are nowhere near meeting quality standards, in a way that leaves me wondering what attempts you have even made to try to figure out what those standards are. They're explained pretty clearly in the site documentation:

Moving on...

I didn't receive any warnings in my inbox or on my questions and thought I was asking okay questions until I got banned for one of them.

You did, in fact, receive warnings. "Your inbox" is not really a thing that exists on Stack Overflow, most of the time, because this is not social media nor a discussion forum, and we do not have DMs except for very specific moderator intervention situations. There is a notification system for when comments are added to your question, the question is closed or edited, etc. - but when the system warns you about this sort of thing, it is designed to be directly in your way when you try to post or to review your old questions.

Anyway, we know that you received warnings because a) we know how the system works generally and b) in your previous question on Meta, in the comments a moderator showed evidence that the system logged such warnings. If you didn't notice these warnings, I don't know what we can really tell you about that; if you aren't reading what the website tells you, why should we answer your questions and expect you to read and try to understand the answers?

On this site, I thought it was for ban appeals which just seemed like they made sense, but the appeal got taken down.

What you posted cannot in good faith be called an appeal. "[This site] should improve its moderation to allow human beings to make mistakes instead of giving the most severe punishment to people who broke very minor rules in a very obviously accidental way." is not something I would advise anyone, anywhere on the Internet, to say with a straight face as part of a sincere attempt to appeal a ban. (I sincerely hope you are never prosecuted for a crime, because heaven help you if you decide to represent yourself in court and take that kind of attitude with a judge.)

Aside from that, no, that post was not "taken down"; it was closed. Like it says in the big shaded box at the top now, the question "does not appear to seek input and discussion from the community." Hard to disagree with that.

All that said, yes, meta.SO would be a place for ban appeals - among many other things - only after you have thoroughly read through the FAQ link that was given to you both in the comments for that question, and in the system message that told you about the question ban in the first place. However, ban appeals will be summarily dismissed because moderators are not empowered to lift this ban, which is fully automated by the Stack software, which we do not have access to.

I decided to look around and found out that it was like the normal Stack Overflow but seemingly for those that were banned.

I can't imagine how you came to that conclusion. What you propose makes absolutely no sense; why would people who have been banned from using a site, be given an entire parallel site that works the same way to use freely? What would be the point?

I saw a few questions and they were all about Python scripting so I assumed I could ask the same questions here as in the normal Stack Overflow, but my question got taken down AGAIN.

This is an utterly bizarre assertion. I can't see any questions about Python scripting on the front page here. I can very clearly see that the questions are all about the Stack Overflow site itself - because that is the purpose of Meta. This also follows from what the word "meta" means. It also follows from the fact that if I try searching the Meta site for the text "python" I only get a few thousand results (compared to more than 2 million on the main site), and the first few results are clearly talking about stuff like proposals to rename tags on the site, proposals about how the site should do syntax highlighting, etc. It also follows from the fact that there isn't a python tag here.

Really. Show me even one question that you "saw" and believed was "about Python scripting", which didn't get closed and heavily downvoted.

The mod that took down the question also assumed I was trying to get around a ban even though I wasn't, which just came across as rude.

People coming to reasonable inferences based on the information available to them cannot be called rude. Please try to consider outside perspectives - it is not solely our responsibility to consider your perspective.

I've seen people say it is about Stack Overflow but what do they mean by that? Is it just for questions on how to use the site?

Yes. What else could it mean? I don't see a reason to try to explain this, because I can't see a legitimate reason to be confused about it, and I can't imagine a way to make it clearer than it already is.

It seems simple enough to me to not require an entirely new version of Stack Overflow for this.

... Okay, at this point I cannot resist pointing out the obvious.

If knowing how to use Stack Overflow is so simple, then how have you found this many different ways to get it wrong, to the point where you are posting in frustration with titles like "I don't understand anything on this site"?

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    "First off, one question per six months is overkill." - Again: we do not control this and cannot possibly do anything about it. "Secondly, I never saw a single comment pointing out my mistakes." - On your first question, I left a comment which reads: "Please read minimal reproducible example. It is not reasonable to ask other people to examine hundreds of lines of code in order to explain why the indentation is wrong on one of them. Also, please do not use filler text to try to bypass automated system checks. We want you to make the question better, not worse." Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 0:18
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    " I don't remember asking any questions that would be deemed low-quality" - all sixteen of the undeleted questions I can see are ones that I would consider low quality. Bluntly, you need to understand that "I left code snippets and clear problems" is nowhere near the standard. "Whenever a question could've been interpreted as a duplicate, I made sure to" - and yet your very first question was one where copying and pasting your question title into a search engine immediately turns up multiple existing Stack Overflow questions about the same problem. Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 0:20
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    If you want to understand why a particular question isn't/wasn't well received, and can't figure it out after reading through the resources given to you, you can ask about that specific question here on Meta. Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 0:25
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    "mention that the answers to the "duplicate" questions did not work for me." Sorry for cutting you off. But - no, you didn't. Again, for the example I selected, you didn't say anything about the reference canonical failing to help you, and you didn't say anything about other duplicates failing to help you, and in fact you didn't say anything about having found other duplicates. Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 0:31
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    "For my questions, I told people my problem, what I wanted to do, what happened instead, and some code snippets and output snippets to help. I don't see what else would need to be added to the question." - then you should read the links I have provided you in order to understand what else is wrong. I also recommend How to create a Minimal, Reproducible Example and Are there legitimate "fix my code" questions?, particularly my answer there. Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 0:34
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    (By the way: there are at least three syntax problems in that first question. The first one happens because you have mixed two-space and four-space indentation, so the following line starting with else if not doesn't line up with anything. The second is the one you actually mentioned in the comments. The third that I see is not an indentation problem; but else if is not valid in Python.) Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 0:37
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    "In the meantime, what's the best way for me to become unbanned?" Please read the FAQ link about question bans, that I already linked in this question and discussed being previously linked to you, in order to understand that. Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 0:49
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    @chivracq: "Qt" is not an abbreviation... If anything, "Question" would be abbreviated to "Q". (that "t" isn't even a logical second letter there...)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 6:22
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    @YozyOpto - You were given feedback on multiple questions. You were given a fair chance to ask questions of acceptable quality. The problem seems to be two major things. You not actively acknowledging this feedback and addressing the issues with your existing questions. This means your existing questions will not be answered and will likely never be positively received. This of course means that your existing unanswered questions will likely eventually be automatically deleted for being abandoned. That won’t be a good, deleted questions, can’t receive upvotes. Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 12:17
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    Secondly, a single well received question, likely will be enough to lift the question ban. However, you have since been serially upvoted, which is essentially voting fraud upon the party who issued those votes. So those votes are invalid, this fact is obvious, as they were all cast within seconds of each other. Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 12:19
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    "I can't see any questions about Python scripting on the front page here." there actually was a brief moment of time in the past day or two where there were several lost souls asking python questions here on meta at the same time.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 17:48
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    @YozyOpto You're misinterpreting the UI. This answer has 20 upvotes, not your question. the simpler explanation is 20 unique people upvoted it, rather than someone went through the trouble of creating 20 accounts with enough rep to upvote....
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 17:49
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    @YozyOpto between what I said and that last comment exchange, I get the impression that the common pattern here is you misinterpreting or misunderstanding things that were plainly shown or told to you, and that the best way to fix this issue is for you to pay closer attention. Commented Jul 7, 2023 at 18:35
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    @chivracq: But why the obfuscation? Why not just spell it out? Is it some kind of trolling? Commented Jul 8, 2023 at 0:15
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    If terseness is the point, then just use "Q", it's shorter, it's equally clear, and at least it's not something made-up :D @chivracq Also, what you contribute on a different website is completely irrelevant on SO...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 8, 2023 at 13:56

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