48

I recently came across a common "how do I split a string on x but not if the x is in quotes" type question that a couple of people had suggested were duplicates of a state machine parsing/tokenizing approach. It seemed a reasonable target, and I found some other helpful ones too that were added to the list when I cast my vote

At some point after that I revisited the question and noticed that it was closed as a different duplicate by a different user. The new duplicate was possibly a better match for the specific problem, but I also noted that the gold badge holder who closed the question had posted (and had had accepted) an answer. The answer posted doesn't appear to be one of the ones in the dupe target. The other thing I noted is that all of the answers in the new dupe target are Community Wiki

I think this pattern of events is possibly a little disingenuous; either the question is a not a dupe in which case it shouldn't be closed as one, or it is a dupe and particularly shouldn't have an answer posted by the user that subsequently closed it as a duplicate.

I reason that if the dupe target is lacking in some advice then really the new advice should be posted into the dupe target/canonical so it brings a wider benefit to all questions pointing to that canonical, rather than remaining an isolated advice in a question closed (by the poster of the advice) to new input.

What's the appropriate course of action for this? Is it something the mod team would review?

25
  • 1
    "The other thing I noted is that all of the answers in the new dupe target are Community Wiki" ... this happens, as far as I remember, automatically when a question has a lot of answers already. When you check some of the answers, when you should see, that it was marked as "Community Wiki" by the "Community" Bot, not the author themself.
    – Tom
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 10:49
  • 6
    @Tom: No, that was changed in 2014 - "We have disabled all forms of community wiki automatic conversions, not just for answers but for questions as well." (It is also in the change list (2014-04-09).) Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 11:15
  • 5
    whys didn't you post the question so that we can look at it, and why didn't you mod flad the question and explained what you mean
    – nbk
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 12:39
  • 4
    Happy to post it if you think it's warranted; I tend to prefer to avoid initial name and shame and I come to meta to ask if something should be loaded onto the mod team - they've got enough to do without me flagging stuff that isn't a concern
    – Caius Jard
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 12:41
  • 33
    It's about the regex tag, isn't it? Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 13:45
  • 19
    Can't we just get Joel to declare that regexes are not programming and make this all go away? :-)
    – Stephen C
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 13:57
  • 4
    @MisterMiyagi if that's a query to me; no - the question looked like an FSM parser one ("splitting ignoring delimiters inside quotes"), was closed as duplicate of 3 other FSM ones (that had some regex approaches) with a pointer from me to look at a particular answer in one dupe. Someone reopened the question. A GBH posted a "use command line parser lib X" answer and then closed the question as a dupe of a "how do i parse a command line" with many CW answers, but none seemed to be about lib X. I think that's poor form, moreso if the GBH reopened.
    – Caius Jard
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 14:17
  • 53
    Imho, either you answer a question or you close a question. Doing both is abusive.
    – BDL
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 14:21
  • 2
  • 12
    @KevinKrumwiede unfortunately, that help is only near-term and often leads to future users being unable to find the post with the best answer due to there being so many duplicate answers spread across far too many questions. The users asking should be in the minority, the majority should be finding answers rather than asking.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 17:38
  • 2
    @zcoop98 there's quite a lot in that Q.. in this particular case I do think that the GB's advice posted into the duplicate should have been posted into the dupe target (it seems new) and the dupe closed. Whether the dupe target is CW or not is relatively immaterial; a GB is already edging on for the highest privs possible on the site and a few more unicorn points are neither here nor there. Posting a CW in the duplicate "so they don't earn any points" isn't much of a sway for me, because the overall aim is in pointing duplicates to good/improving targets. Orphaning the advice in the dupe..
    – Caius Jard
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 17:38
  • 5
    ..isn't really that beneficial to anywhere near as many people.
    – Caius Jard
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 17:40
  • 4
    @Kevin (both) There's a tangent here in terms of duplicate management and benefits that would probably deserve its own question, but I think there is scope all round for duplicate improvements. Canonicals with 30 answers, that are everything from one liners to navel fluff level thesis paper answers are probably eroding the usefulness of a duplicate signposting system but it doesn't mean that answering blatant dupes is OK either. If anything to be most helpful to overall site goals and benefitting people a dupe suggestion should come with a comment of which answer in the target is best suited
    – Caius Jard
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 17:45
  • 9
    @KevinKrumwiede Answering dupes typically isn't that helpful because it fragments knowledge. That's why we have a duplicate closure system in the first place.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 21:07
  • 2
    @Eve The way the dupe hammer system works typically precludes the possibility of the wielder not being an expert. That being said, even the rare incorrect dupe hammer usage still usually gets corrected by other gold badge holders if they see it. At any rate, that's a person issue, not a system issue; it doesn't detract from the point/design of the duplicate closure system or the fact that fragmented knowledge is bad.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jan 31, 2022 at 18:46

7 Answers 7

36

While we usually can't adjudicate if a question was closed as a duplicate correctly, we can and do look at gold badge abuse.

At some point after that I revisited the question and noticed that it was closed as a different duplicate by a different user. The new duplicate was possibly a better match for the specific problem, but I also noted that the gold badge holder who closed the question had posted (and had had accepted) an answer. The answer posted doesn't appear to be one of the ones in the dupe target. The other thing I noted is that all of the answers in the new dupe target are Community Wiki

That does sound suspicious. We frown upon gold badge holders answering questions and then closing them as a duplicate

I think it's bad form to answer a question then immediately close it as a duplicate. If it's a duplicate, just close it. By answering it then immediately closing it, it sends a signal that looks like you're hoping for upvotes on your answer, while depriving others of the opportunity to answer as well. That's not a very level playing field. The dupe hammer is intended to get duplicate questions closed faster, not closed right after gold badge owners can post an answer.

This sounds nearly the same, except they reopened the question first. If they are attempting to avoid a wiki answer, we can always merge the questions and convert the answer to wiki as well.

TL;DR: Please mod flag if you see people doing this.

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  • 4
    Just to clarify: is a single instance of this sufficient cause to raise a flag, or does there need to be a pattern of a user doing this?
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 17:14
  • 13
    You can flag any instance where you see this happening. Patterns help, but we'd always reach out to a user first if we suspected there was abuse going on. The whole scenario of answer and dupehammering is uncommon enough.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 17:17
  • 1
    @Machavity I just flagged such an incident, and it got declined, so...
    – Red
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 22:24
  • 6
    @AnnZen Uhm... a dupehammer who answers, deletes their answer and then hammers the question is not the same thing
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jan 28, 2022 at 1:10
  • @Machavity I see. So just to be clear, that is not a flag-worthy case, right?
    – Red
    Commented Jan 28, 2022 at 1:30
  • 5
    @AnnZen Not really. If the dupehammer has an undeleted answer, flag it. Plenty of hammers answer things, delete their and hammer them. I want to say I might have done it once or twice
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jan 28, 2022 at 1:34
  • 1
    @AnnZen FYI, the problem is when a gold badge holder uses the dupehammer to prevent further answers so their answer is the one and only answer to a question (or it's one of a small number of answers). At best, that's a conflict of interest. At worst, they're trying to artificially boost their answer score by preventing competition. Also, they're asserting that it shouldn't be answered by closing it, but this contradicts the fact that they answered it. If they delete their answer, none of that applies; in that case they presumably posted an answer and then found a dup to change their mind. Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 11:49
  • @BernhardBarker Okay, but it's strange that the dupe target they used was one they already used on multiple questions (giving the impression that they might've knew the target existed prior to answering), and they deleted their answer after another got accepted...
    – Red
    Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 13:45
  • @AnnZen If they deleted their own answer after another got accepted, and then closed it, that might suggest that they're being passive aggressive or they're acting as if they're above the rules, either of which would suggest that they shouldn't have that power. If you didn't specifically mention that in the flag, a mod could've easily missed that. Although I can't tell you whether or not a mod would've declined it if you gave those details. Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 14:38
  • I think if I were to ever find reason to do this I would mark my own answer as CW; but I would rather not do this.
    – Joshua
    Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 17:01
23

In my opinion, this behavior should not be tolerated. By definition, if you VTC, you think that a question can't (or shouldn't) be answered (unless you also think that you should be the only one who's allowed to answer).

I generally downvote these answers.

SE should update the UI not to allow people to both VTC and answer (regardless of whether they're gold badge holders or not).

In the meantime, this kind of behavior is a clear abuse of the hammer and should be flaggable for moderator intervention. First-time abuse should result in a warning and repeated abuse should result in outright suspension.

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    I understand the desire to downvote such answers, but I strongly recommend not using downvotes to penalize user behavior. Votes should be strictly on the quality of the content. As mentioned by Machavity in their answer, you can flag these posts, and then mods will look into dealing with any problematic behavior.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 17:29
  • 9
    FWIW: I’ve voted to close a number of questions I’ve answered. Typically it’s because more information comes to light after, such as a follow-up comment indicating the question was ambiguous, or identifying a legitimately useful dup target. Sometimes it’s because I am left with a nagging feeling after I answer that I’ve seen a similar question before, and put additional effort into seeking it out. Other times it’s because, much later, my understanding of what’s appropriate on Stack Overflow evolves and I go back to flag old questions I previously answered (e.g., too broad, opinion-based). Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 19:37
  • 1
    My point being that there are likely charitable explanations for why a contributor will, on occasion, answer a question and then later flag to close the same question, without intending to game the system. Ideally, they should recognize the issue before answering, but sometimes it’s not clear that an issue was overlooked until later, as we discover new information. In those cases, admitting and trying to correct the mistake is responsible behavior, not an abuse. Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 19:48
  • 4
    Fortunately, these cases would be handled by mods who can look at the overall picture and make an educated judgement when this occurs (potentially even merging the answers into the dupe or deleting them)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 19:50
  • 3
    @JeremyCaney— voting to close after answering is OK in my book, in the circumstances and for the reasons you outline. What is not OK is reopening an already closed question, answering it, and then voting to close again, which it seems is what happened in the scenario in the question. Commented Jan 28, 2022 at 18:29
11

I'll bet that the gold badge user acted in good faith:

  1. They thought that the question was not an actual duplicate and re-opened it.

  2. They then answered the question.

  3. Later they realized that there was a better duplicate target and closed the question.

  4. Having taken the time to write an answer, it seems like a waste to delete it.

I've been in a similar situation myself, not with reopening first, but finding a duplicate near the end of writing a long helpful answer, or soon afterwards.

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  • 5
    Definitely a valid possibility which is worth recognizing, kinda regardless of whether this particular instance was or not. Another user made a similar point in a couple comments.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 20:00
  • 1
    Acting in good faith would not make it any less an abuse of privilege. Gold badge holders have the privileges they do because we estimate that have the experience and commitment to use them appropriately, and with those privileges comes a duty to do that. Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 13:39
  • 1
    If the answer has any novelty, then the user does have the alternative of adapting it to the dupe target, so there does not need to be any waste. If the answer is not novel, however, then the waste is in having duplicate answers to the duplicate question. Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 13:46
  • 3
    I've posted an answer and then dup-hammered at least once, with that chain of events. (Perhaps even found the duplicate while looking for links to reference in my answer, or only later realized that one of those links would work as a duplicate.) But I wouldn't have considered reopening a closed question; if I thought it wasn't a good dup target, my first course would be to look for a better dup target and edit the duplicate list. (Which gold badge holders can do without opening / re-closing, not using up our vote.) Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 20:00
2

Generally, it is not explicitly against the rules to close a question as a duplicate to a post where the gold badger who closed it has posted an answer. But it is (arguably) poor style and goes against the site culture, since you are partial. Because posts picked as duplicate targets/canonical dupes tend to generate more traffic and more up-votes.

I always try to avoid close-voting or using my gold hammer privileges when I know that I have answered the question before, because then I'm partial. Instead I just post a comment "possibly duplicate of x" but I refrain from actually close-voting, leaving that decision other high rep users. If they agree that the post I linked is indeed a duplicate, the question will get closed as such by consensus of impartial users.

However, it's quite painful to hunt down duplicates in general on SO. The reason one most often realizes that something is a duplicate is when one has answered it before.

The solution to this is community wikis. When the dupe target is a community wiki that I have posted or contributed to, I am no longer partial. Since then I no longer receive any rep if the community wiki gets lot of up-votes. This is sensible, because it encourages domain experts to write high quality, self-answered canonical dupe targets.

As for closing posts where you have already posted an answer, it's a bit fishy - especially if you close vote first and post an answer afterwards. But sometimes you just realize that - dang, a better post for this already exists even though you have taken the time to post an answer. That's fine. It's also fine to close your own questions as duplicates.

Regarding your specific case, without examples it is impossible to say if it was handled correctly or if someone acted in their own interest. It sounds as if the gold badger just wished to pick the most correct and canonical dupe target. If it also happened to be a community wiki, then there is definitely nothing wrong in their behavior because you can't consider them as partial then.

Please note however, that multiple dupe targets can be picked! At least gold badgers can edit the list and add multiple posts. This may be appropriate when a post has been closed with a helpful dupe target, but a canonical one also exists.

1
  • When I'm looking for duplicates, usually finding one of my own canonical answers is a good sign for wanting to link it, since I know it covers things in enough detail and depth, without getting too much wrong. I know what you mean, though, sometimes I wish people had written more good canonical answers in the tags I follow, like [x86][assembly], so I wasn't using duplicates to turn that corner of SO into my own personal empire. But apparently I have sufficient ego to think my answers are good enough to dup-hammer to them anyway, or other's answers I've edited, sometimes significantly. :P Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 20:06
-5

I feel like this is silly to post, but since you asked...

  • Don't reopen a duplicate with your hammer solely to answer and re-hammer. The 'add a duplicate target' feature was literally put in place to handle that scenario.
  • Trust duplicate closure. If you are going to reopen with your hammer, do a little diligence to make sure it really isn't a duplicate.

I just don't think that is what was happening here. More than likely this was a one off mistake. Either way, we should be addressing widespread behavior here and not something that is only occurring once. Should this be done? No. Does it warrant being brought to a public discussion for everyone to say that? Not really... and rightfully so you omitted the post, perhaps because you considered this to be an over the top venue to address a single observation.

Let's move on to real problems.

3
  • Marking a Q as a duplicate should mean that one might really know the topic in it - fact that could have nothing to do with holding a hammer. Q and A continue to be posted on SoF even in already established topics where one could think that everything was fully explained already - because edge scenarios can still occur (I remember reading questions closed as duplicates despite of even the "original" ones didn't answer to the core issues raised by the so-called duplicate). Probably one question should better be left opened more time (say 2-3 days) until more expert people see/reply/solve it
    – Eve
    Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 8:33
  • So, just to get this straight, you thought that gold tag badge holders should be able to roepen questions just to answer them and then close them... because "edge cases" and there should be a grace period? And that somehow related to this answer in which way?
    – Travis J
    Commented Jan 31, 2022 at 5:06
  • The main question ended with "What's the appropriate course of action for this" and my comment was not an answer to it (else I would have added my reply as an answer), but mostly a remark about usage probably too easy (sometimes) by some mods or power users of the feature "add a duplicate target" you mentioned. In no way I condone someone closing, opening, answering then closing it again. If a question deserves an answer then definitely it might stay opened
    – Eve
    Commented Jan 31, 2022 at 16:17
-7

There are two different points of view at Stack Overflow. Inside and outside.

Inside point of view is largely popular among active participants. Because, well, they are inside. They are extremely preoccupied with stuff like badges, reputation points, formal rules, meta posts, tolerated behaviors and the like. From this point of view Stack Overflow is a nice place, orderly and pleasant, with only occasional scoundrel to appear that is quickly taught how to behave by the citizen patrol.

Outside point of view is a view of a person who is coming to this site for the information. They seldom aware of the internal stuff and care even less. All they need is the answer to their question. Preferably - a good answer, which means correct and detailed as opposed to a too localized, hasty, short-sighted, featuring a bad practice or outright incorrect answer. From this point of view Stack Overflow is a smelly heap of garbage where it takes a lot of effort to scavenge for the information that is not outdated, misleading, too localized for the Opening poster but useless for anyone else.

Due to obvious reasons the second person is often... forgotten. Because they are outside. Nobody cares about a silent person. Remarkably, nobody mentioned whether the new answer was correct or not, what were the other answers (if any) how much harm these answers was. Nothing of the sort. Because, you see, nobody cares of such matters, whether the information provided on Stack Overflow is correct or not. Only whether some formal code is followed.

For some reason, in the questions like this one, nobody cares whether Stack Overflow became a better source of information for the people.

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    I take it you mean outside users are people who never registered an account or asked a question, then just hit Google and usually land in SO somewhere when looking for the answer to their problem? You've a reasonable point, but it seems more like it's crossing into that tangent I mentioned in the comments of duplicate management and how to make the duplicating system useful. Ideally all roads would lead to Rome, and "what is a null reference exception?" Rome wouldn't be a festering cesspit of 30 answers that are everything between a 500 page document on c# memory management and a one line ..
    – Caius Jard
    Commented Jan 28, 2022 at 6:53
  • .. code fix. Because it is equally useless to say "go the the city library and read everything; your answer is in there somewhere". Some dupe targets need a cull, perhaps from an SME, rather than letting SO content be a "fully designed by committee" all the time. Is it a viable dupe management strategy to spread them out over the paths that lead to Rome? To consider that every situation is slightly different, to post an exact answer to the OP's exact problem and then also clobber it as a duplicate? Perhaps then any answers posted on such should convert to CW, which I believe zcoop suggested..
    – Caius Jard
    Commented Jan 28, 2022 at 6:59
  • ..and I now, in conjunction with your answer, see more of the logic behind the approach. It diverges from the site mission to concentrate all the same problems in the same place though, and perhaps hands the problem of "find me a person with the same problem as me, so I can see what they were told the solution was" to Google; stackoverflow is no longer concentrating the knowledge of duplicates, Google is. Is that valid? To take a "human considers your problem to be the same as this one" and give it to an AI instead? Does answering and closing allow us to keep both?
    – Caius Jard
    Commented Jan 28, 2022 at 7:09
  • 3
    I feel like this is putting a rather one-sided spin on things. "Nobody" cares about the second person person because they are actually the tenth, hundredth or more person, and it takes an enormous amount of effort to care about them all. Things just don't work if the few have to care about all of the many in detail. And honestly, I have little sympathy if that second person does "care even less" to begin with, as you say. Commented Jan 28, 2022 at 11:58
-37

Answer questions if you want to be helpful. Close questions if they don't fit the site's curation objectives. These things are not mutually exclusive, despite some people's attempts to make them so.

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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented Jan 27, 2022 at 23:28
  • 10
    I don't understand why this answer has delete votes on it. It's a perfectly valid answer to the question. Please use up/down votes to express agreement/disagreement with the answer.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 28, 2022 at 22:50
  • 6
    @cigien Beautifully ironic to see people misusing moderation tools on a Q&A about people supposedly misusing moderation tools. Commented Jan 28, 2022 at 23:08
  • @cigien, what means delete votes ?
    – Eve
    Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 8:36
  • @Eve See this.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 15:05
  • @cigien after checking the link plus others related to it, it is still unclear to me if delete votes look differently at all for an usual user / reader / after being applied to a Q or A. Are there any different signs for those votes (than it is for upvote or downvote any post) ? Where can be the public see that a certain post was slapped with such vote ? By the way, the FAQ link about this topic just mentions something as "at receiving 3 such votes the post gets deleted automatically". I don't see however this A (where we comment now) to be deleted even if having more than -30 reputation
    – Eve
    Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 15:52
  • 2
    @Eve 1) If you click on the timeline button below the score on this answer, and the pick "show vote summaries", you should be able to see all the delete votes on the answer, in the rightmost column 2) Answers are never automatically deleted, regardless of their score. The text you're quoting has to do with when questions can be deleted I think.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 29, 2022 at 16:00
  • 1
    I disagree for two main reasons: 1. Closure is to prevent answers. Answering and closing are opposed actions. I can accept two different users taking up each, as they have a different view what the appropriate course to take is. However, if one single user does both, then they are practising double-think - the question shouldn't be answered and they answered it. 2. Duplicates in particular are a special case of closure where we apply them when there is an answer already present. Answering and dupe-closing is even weirder than answer and close. The answer exists elsewhere BUT ALSO HERE?!
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jan 31, 2022 at 7:46

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