187

The question-banning system punishes people who have demonstrated the ability to ask a good question within their six month rate-limited window, because it remembers the entire history of their poorly-asked questions prior to that.

After some period of time (say, a year), I suggest we begin aging away older questions that weren't well-received from this calculation. After the six month waiting period, if the user asks a question that is well-received, there's a better chance of the ban being lifted if the user's entire account history isn't considered.

Case in point: This account with 352 reputation, which asked a question that got 3 upvotes in November, but is now waiting out another six months before they can ask a new question. The last poorly-received (deleted) question prior to that was asked two years ago.

22
  • 3
    How can you see that the user account you mentioned is question banned?
    – Vickel
    Commented Jan 16, 2021 at 21:37
  • 17
    @Vickel: They asked on Meta why they're not allowed to ask a new question on Stack Overflow. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/404509 Commented Jan 16, 2021 at 21:38
  • 3
    Many year ago, also I was on q-ban for a while. It appeared quite mysteriously and disappeared exactly so. Somewhere on the MSE I've read that posting upvoted answers helps to get out of the q-ban, I can try to dig it out. Now I believe that likely the huge mass of my answers have saved my account.
    – peterh
    Commented Jan 16, 2021 at 21:49
  • 2
    Could they just improve their old questions and/or ask to have the questions disassociated from their account?
    – Hack-R
    Commented Jan 16, 2021 at 22:18
  • 3
    @HovercraftFullOfEels Yes he was: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/389906/… Commented Jan 16, 2021 at 22:24
  • 41
    I don't know about aging, but a rate-limited user posting a good question probably shouldn't use up their rate limit. Commented Jan 16, 2021 at 22:37
  • 13
    Seems like a reasonable idea, to me. For example, a question ban may have been imposed on a user when they were a young teenager, and teenagers can change rapidly (I think - long time since I was in that domain). Commented Jan 16, 2021 at 22:45
  • 5
    @HovercraftFullOfEels: I was never told the algorithm's specifics, and current mods do not know the algorithm. Commented Jan 16, 2021 at 23:37
  • 43
    As much as I like the "Fix the question" approach, There are questions that simply cannot be fixed. There should be a timeout eventually. Commented Jan 17, 2021 at 1:09
  • 7
    @PeterMortensen The only things you can do with a question that's based on a typo or fundamental misconception is rewrite it into something completely different or get it out of sight before it starts racking up downvotes. "Do my homework" questions have a better chance, the asker could do the homework and transform the question to focus on an actual problem, but again that's a dramatic change to the question. Unfortunately that kind of penalizes the asker who eventually did the homework, got it right, and didn't have to ask a question. Commented Jan 17, 2021 at 4:00
  • 2
    @akuzminykh yes. To stay away from a ban you need positively scored posts. And no, nothing ages.
    – rene
    Commented Jan 17, 2021 at 7:01
  • 12
    @PeterMortensen it is worth keeping in mind that even salvaged questions sometimes won't help getting out of the ban (The “I Get It” Reputation Problem). I think editing old questions is the most efficient way to lift the ban but we need to drop the assumption that it's universal and accept the reality that this way sometimes (probably quite often) doesn't work
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 17, 2021 at 9:38
  • 2
    @yivi This was HMP for a couple of days (it's in the timeline). I think it's had enough regular views for now. [status-review] seems appropriate for where it is
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jan 19, 2021 at 17:55
  • 3
    I upvote this question a million times! Stack Overflow's policies and admins make life so hard for people who are just trying to make a contribution and get something out of it in return. I've been a member of 8 years and six months and have all sorts of badges and reputation points elsewhere in SO, but am currently banned from asking a question that I'd like an answer too. SO FRUSTRATING! Talking to the SO admins is like banging your head on a wall until it bleeds. They just keep saying "go back and fix up your existing questions". But I can't. They were dumb Qs. I just want to move forward.
    – Anthony.
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 9:29
  • 2
    I agree with this suggestion. I asked several questions that got me banned, and since they were classified as "opinion questions", there's no way to "improve" them without fundamentally changing the topic.
    – Felix An
    Commented Nov 21, 2022 at 0:28

12 Answers 12

16

Thank you for raising this. There's a lot of great feedback as well. There is definitely room for improvement here so I've set this to for now as this is something we'd like to explore further.

1
51

Since the details of the post-ban algorithm are secret, and we don't know how many factors can impact the end result, or their relative weights, it's hard to say yea or nay to the proposal.

But putting that aside for the sake of argument, I can see how it would make sense to adjust the algorithm to ignore (or if not ignore, at least reduce the impact of) older questions, e.g. anything older than 12 or 18 months.

While from a system perspective the post-ban is not a punishment, subjectively it can feel so, in very practical ways.

Not having a "statute of limitations" for past deeds and having them always kept hanging over the head of an account seems like a poor recipe for "rehabilitation".

The desired end result should be, in my opinion, that a user learns what the site is about, what the quality metrics that the site prizes are, and finally starts producing quality content.

Additionally, my argument for adjusting the post-ban to weigh recent history much more heavily than older questions comes from the opposite perspective than the one in your question.

While your argument is mainly to give more opportunities to banned users to finally become productive site members (a laudable goal), I also think that the algorithm can be way too lenient on users above certain reputation thresholds.

A user above a certain reputation threshold can publish as many badly received posts as they want, and (as far as I can see) will never be on the receiving end of the post-ban.

I've seen users in the multi-thousand range post dozens of badly received questions to no effect, cases that would certainly place a question-ban on a new user posting the same questions as their first posts.

I don't think it's fair nor useful that a user can continue posting bad content consistently and be above the algorithm simply because of the effect of "past contributions", whatever they may be.

If the post-ban algorithm considered only their contributions within (say) the last 12 months, I'm convinced many of those users would at the very least receive a quality warning, if not more.

In comparison, I like how the flag-suspension algorithm works, where it seems that only a couple of declines can already produce a stern warning, and not many more (in a short time frame) will put you in flag-jail for a couple of days, even if you have thousands of "helpful" flags in your past history.

Or the review-suspension mechanics, where even for automatic suspensions the periods are scaled up and down as time goes by.

In addition to the suggested "take only the recent-ish history" into account, I believe the post-ban could also be adjusted using ideas from these mechanics.

In essence:

  • Using mostly recent post history as the deciding ban factor.
  • Making it easier to get both in and out of the ban for users of any reputation level.
  • Escalating "bans". As well as making it easier and more universal to get post-throttled, these throttles should escalate with repeat offences.

I think that something like this could be more useful both in allowing new users to actually become good Stack Overflow citizens, and in reining in high-reputation users that for some reason managed to accrue a lot of points without really learning what the community considers to be a good, useful post.

Of course, since we are talking about a mechanism that is secret, and that is meant to be secret, there are many details unaccounted for. I'm not dwelling on those deliberately because of these unknown unknowns.

13
  • 5
    How about using only the 10 most recent questions? The age of the question would be irrelevant.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jan 17, 2021 at 16:57
  • 12
    I could certainly be a combination of that as well. although "10 latest" could still ban a user for posts from years ago, and at "2 new posts a year" rate it could take a years to revert the situation. Since the exact mechanics will never be known in any case, something of this sort could be used in conjunction with time constraints. Apply different weights to different posts, depending on different heuristics.
    – yivi
    Commented Jan 17, 2021 at 17:01
  • Oh, I thought this was referred to as a "question ban" rather than a "post ban", but so long as the term is used consistently in the answer, that's perfectly fine.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 8:39
  • It refers the the post-ban in general, AFAIK the algorithm is similar and independent, and I don't think these proposed changes should apply only to the one and not the other. Where I refer to the question-ban is about a specific example, of a user I've seen posting dozens of badly received questions and yet their ability to keep posting questions remains unaffected. Thanks for all the fixes anyway.
    – yivi
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 8:42
  • Honestly, I hadn't even realized that one could be banned from answering as well, so I definitely didn't realize that you were referring to the general case. Sorry about that. You might want to make it clearer in your answer that you're referring to both sorts of bans though, since the OP's question is asking very specifically about only question bans.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 9:01
  • 1
    @cigien it is worth noting that answer-bans don't come with a 6 month allowance. Once you worked yourself into an answer ban all you can do is edit and hope for a positive score some day.
    – rene
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 11:01
  • 1
    @rene Oh wow, that makes the answer-ban system even more difficult to escape from if one is caught in it. I wonder if this is as common as being question-banned, and why I haven't seen any Metas about users being answer-banned.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 11:19
  • 1
    The risk of only using most recent is the case of mostly 0-score questions and a single bad one, which appears to be able to get users rate limited or banned. If I were to develop an algorithm, I'd include everything, but heavily weigh impact of posts by how recent they were, making recent contributions determine most, but not ignoring older contributions so users that have an exceptional (either bad or good) history still have a little less or more leeway
    – Erik A
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 11:22
  • @cigien answer ban should be easier to get out from with edits. For link-only non-answers this is almost trivial, one just have to come up with reasonable quality summary of what was there in the link
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 11:24
  • 2
    12 to 18 months is maybe a little too short, you need to give people the time to go through the motions of realising the world does not revolve around them and actually adjust their attitude accordingly. I find it especially sour for people who have used Stack Overflow badly when starting out as a student, come back new and improved and with a healthy dose of personal responsibility when they join the workforce and are then still haunted by their actions as a young punk who was more into drinking beer than doing homework. I would be more in favor of three years as a drop off point.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 15:28
  • 4
    @Gimby: The age-away period doesn't have to be three years. Remember, the principal goal is to greatly slow down those people who can't figure out how to ask a good question, not to put them in prison. Commented Jan 19, 2021 at 18:26
  • 1
    @RobertHarvey fair enough, agreed.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 22, 2021 at 13:43
  • 2
    I fully support this. Not only would this be good for users who've learned how to ask good questions contribute more to the site, but it also restricts users who've "forgotten" (for lack of a better word) how to ask questions from flooding the side with bad content. I know of one user in particular with a 11+ year old account at around 70K (all questions) who started out posting good questions, but over time the quality of their submissions dropped and their prior good history prevented a question ban from kicking in.
    – dbush
    Commented Mar 23, 2021 at 12:28
28

I wonder if 6 months between questions is too long. What we're really aiming to do is:

  1. Stop the immediate stream of low quality posts (from that user)
  2. Give them a strong message to improve with the opportunity to do so.

I suspect the majority response to a 6-month ban is to create a new account (which SO tries to detect, but I doubt their systems are that effective) and continue posting low quality questions. Especially if it requires multiple iterations of 6 month breaks to improve their score sufficiently.

I'd suggest something like 1 or 2 months might seem a more realistic waiting period that'd serve our aim of cutting off the immediate deluge of low-quality posts, but be a short-enough waiting period users might be more tempted to stick it out rather than immediately look to circumvent the system.


What I'm tentatively suggesting here is to reduce the waiting period that banned users can make posts, but not significantly change the algorithm banning them.

5
  • 11
    First time ban - one week. Second time ban - two weeks - then one month - then two months - then three - etc - max out at six months. Six month q-ban for a new user who's trying to figure things out is draconian. And thanks for reminding me - I have to go upvote a question. Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 3:16
  • 1
    Ah fair enough - I didn't know that. Perhaps this is mostly accounted for in the system already.
    – DavidW
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 7:26
  • 7
    No, that's my suggestion for how it should work. Apparently at the moment it's "first time ban - six months" which is ridiculous IMO. Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 14:47
  • Thanks for clarifying! Yes, I basically agree.
    – DavidW
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 14:53
  • 1
    what you suggest looks like a rolling question rate limit, a feature implemented over five years ago. Question bans are supposed kick in only after user exceeded multiple, gradually increasing asking rate limits. As for the immediate stream of low quality posts, system first rate limits any question from new users to once in 90 minutes and, if their first question is poorly received, immediately applies rate limit, so they have to wait for a day. status-completed?
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 20, 2021 at 17:52
16

This seems like it could be a hassle from a technical perspective. It is accomplishable, but nonetheless will add time to the scripts that run. It could perhaps be done once weekly or monthly or something.

Implementation aside, these users do need a cleaner way out after long time frames, and while Rene makes a good point about not rewarding users for doing nothing, that is probably an edge case. Over the course of a year, I think it is fair to expect that people (the real life version of a user) progress in their education or understanding of technology and the world. As such, it makes sense to allow them to attempt to become more involved after a lengthy time frame.

It is also strongly worth considering that users who become more technologically inclined will also figure out ways around their first account's problems, in the form of more accounts. It makes much more sense to try to have users buy into the success of one main account rather than simply run them like spinning plates.

This could also be accompanied by more stick as well, since there is some carrot here. If your question ban was lifted due to no longer being effected by posts aged more than a year, and you re-enter the question ban, you are only allowed to post once a year at that point and the 1 year aging process no longer applies.

Applying a grace opportunity while also tightening the restriction if it is violated is still in line with the idea of throttling the negative activity of users.

15

This needs to be considered the other way around as well. It turns out that there are some users who stop being able to ask good questions, or who for whatever reason fundamentally changed their approach to Stack Overflow for the worse.

I found a user with the following statistics for questions (stitched together from a few SEDE queries, not linked here to avoid Meta effect or other harassment):

Year Total questions Sum of scores Upvoted Zero-score Downvoted
2017 14 6 6 5 3
2018 39 67 23 14 2
2019 57 44 24 22 11
2020 4 -2 0 3 1
2021 3 4 1 2 0
2022 23 5 6 14 3
2023 31 -29 4 9 18

The change over time is dramatic. It comes across almost as if someone else took over the account.

It's been quite unsettling seeing the constant stream of bad questions from the same account this year. There's a particular style to them and generally the same kinds of things are consistently wrong with them, and the user seems to ignore feedback entirely. But the question ban algorithm hasn't kicked in, presumably because of older questions that were well received (not consistently, but some of them got quite solid scores).

2
  • 3
    "It comes across almost as if someone else took over the account." Assuming this isn't an exaggeration, you could flag for that. It wouldn't be the first time that actually happened, and it was not a light punishment at all.
    – Laurel
    Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 2:12
  • 1
    @Laurel I would have to read the older questions carefully and consider their writing style, not just the material. In this particular case, it seems like there has been a shift from questions asked out of personal interest, to self-answered demonstrations. That's definitely something I can see people changing over time - to some extent, I did that. Normally one would expect it to be a positive, but the subject matter of the new questions is the primary issue. Commented Sep 18, 2023 at 4:35
9

No.

While I agree the q-ban can be harsh, I will oppose any proposal that makes doing nothing a viable option to escape from the q-ban.

Let's remind ourselves that a quality ban doesn't kick in unannounced. Warnings are issued when users that are close to the threshold ask a new question. Ignoring the warnings, or not taking enough time to comprehend the offered advice, or forgetting to seek support on Meta early on, leads to a hole that is unnecessarily deeper than it could have been. That needs more digging to get out of.

I give you that I see very few Meta support questions from users that run into the warning, yet plenty once the quality ban is in effect. I've seen claims that users didn't see or even get that warning, while the system has recorded that it attempted to warn the user. I don't have an account that sits around the q-ban threshold so I can't verify if this warning still works, and given the many UI changes, I can't rule out that at some moment in time the warning UX was broken. Maybe an SE Dev can confirm whether warnings are still shown.

Another issue is likely the lack of proper guidance for these users. On-boarding "new" users has been neglected for a few years now, with a slight improvement when the new Ask page went live, but that is about it. Serious technical re-writing of the Help center guidance hasn't started and Meta is all over the place. Instead, blog post after blog post is produced trying to lure more users into the network.

While you seem to earn community points now for basing your argument on an actual case, I find the example you picked troublesome. Here is why. Said profile doesn't show any memorable activity. None of the advice in the help or the proposed duplicate was taken on. No editing, no flagging, hardly any voting, no answering, nothing. Instead, we get a post on Meta telling us that the q-ban lasted long enough.

I've given support more than once to q-banned users here on Meta and I admit it is a daunting task. For users that did indeed try to edit their posts, that did follow the advice given, that did contribute positively to the community, it is disheartening if they ran out of options but still didn't reach the edge of the hole. Yet they decide to try every 6 months to get closer to a q-ban free existence.

Maybe, just maybe, the q-ban algorithm needs tuning. As in: reward contributions a bit more. And maybe we (the Meta community that is) need to find success stories: q-banned users that found their way out of it. And maybe we (the Meta community that is) need to revisit guidance we have on Meta to make changes to the many posts on the subject to better support / explain / coach users that are willing to dig themselves out of the q-ban hole. And if Meta is so in favor of aging away a q-ban, why don't we all participate in voting on posts from q-banned users to "free" them? (Ironically that seems to have happened for your "case").

But allowing bad content to enter the system by simply waiting isn't doing quality a favor and I still think that should be our top concern. I'm sorry for the few users that are impacted by this. Grab your chance every 6 months.

12
  • 13
    I remember a user that was in a Question ban with only two posts. They were both deleted and from my understanding they were heavily downvoted. Not sure what kind of warning that user got, except for the votes.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jan 17, 2021 at 13:23
  • 2
    But aren't we supposed to be welcoming and friendly and forgiving and trustworthy and brave and and clean and reverent? Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 3:16
  • 12
    I do not wish to appear to contradict you, but as somebody who has such a ban, a I have higher score than 352, I can not recall receiving any such warning(I would be happy to be corrected on this subject). Some of my questions in the 'sin bin' are several years old and well beyond their best by date and some are impossible to updae And two throw my two pennies in to the argument, if you ask an obscure question about something that is non mainstream, few users will be interested, few people will know a useful answer and it will look like a poor quality question
    – Dave
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 6:03
  • 3
    False: users do not "do nothing", they do a lot of things - just not on the site. Chances are that they develop with time to an acceptable level.
    – peterh
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 10:22
  • 6
    False: closed, downvoted and particularly deleted questions get much lesser attention, resulting that edits normally can not fix them. Thus, that you edit your questions and you get out of the q-ban, that is a big f...g lie. You will work on them a lot and the ban will silently remain.
    – peterh
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 10:24
  • 4
    @peterh-ReinstateMonica just not on the site. ... I also do a lot of things. I sigh a lot ...
    – rene
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 10:34
  • 4
    I wish someone would screencap what the current state of such a warning looks like. It is hard to imagine that it is in your face enough that the fault must be with the user when it is missed several times.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 14:38
  • @rene If I would be a new account on a q-ban, but knowing from the SE what I now know, yes I would try to fix my questions. I would fight for them on the meta, with the secondary goal to use the meta effect for the undeletes-reopens. I would also create a lot of answers. After this fight is over and lost, I would use alternate IPs/accounts. However, I actually have only a little need for the answers I got on the SO and mysteriously I was never on the q-ban since I am writing many answers, too.
    – peterh
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 22:01
  • 1
    Getting out of a question ban is possible, and it’s possible the resulting user, ends up with tens of thousands of reputation. Now granted I know of one example out of many that failed. However, the user in question, improved their quality of their contributions by several factors. Commented Feb 8, 2021 at 13:11
  • 2
    FALSE: You can get blocked without previous warning. Commented Mar 16, 2021 at 1:21
  • 1
    @AlbertoSalviaNovella if you don't get warnings that is a bug. Report it. Don't forget to include your browser, OS and other local and/or network characteristics that might contribute to the bug.
    – rene
    Commented Mar 16, 2021 at 6:51
  • I don't know that "doing nothing" is a fair assessment here. The suggestion by OP is that we start aging away old questions... so that means we're already requiring more than nothing... we're requiring the user wait a year or more. That's not really 'doing nothing', it's actively preventing them from asking bad questions during that 1-2 years before those old bad questions still count. Put another way, this suggestion by OP could just be construed as "allow the user to ask two questions every 6 months instead of 1 question every 6 months" or similar.
    – TylerH
    Commented Sep 19, 2023 at 13:49
6

I would disagree with this proposal since it's fixing the symptom of poor questions as opposed to addressing the problem - which is poor questions.

For banned users, there are what I would consider three buckets that they fall into.

  • A user will continue to ask questions in spite of the limit, and attempt to contribute in a positive way to the site.
  • A user will continue to ask questions in spite of the limit, and continue to post off-topic questions or have those questions poorly received.
  • A user will simply go away and/or attempt to create a new account.

Users in the first group have reflected on their actions and this is more indicative that the quality algorithm needs to be tweaked to account for them. But I would strongly argue that this rare. You've found a literal needle in this haystack.

For all cases, simply aging away the questions means that someone could do this, forget about the site (or just log out) and not ask questions for X number of months and suddenly be able to ask questions again, as if the point of the restriction was convenient enough to be ignored.

What we haven't been able to address is why the user asked a poor question to begin with. Either they didn't realize that the question wasn't on-topic here, or that their question was overly broad, or that they were being poorly received because they gave few details about their problem...all manner of things. The company should really do something about this if they want these edge cases to stop tarnishing their reputation.

This proposal addresses none of those and we would continue to have problems with question quality in this fashion.

While I don't think that the ban system is perfect - I could only imagine how frustrating it is to make a bad first impression to only have that haunt you until the end of time - it's still a system that reinforces some commitment to question quality by literally taking the privilege away from people when it's misused.

Maybe this is just a scenario to flag a moderator for assistance to see if someone in staff could look at it instead. Perhaps this is just exceptional enough to allow for an exception to take place at the CM level instead.

2

I think it's possible that, to some extent, this is already happening.

I'm a moderator on another SE site, and back in 2015, we had a user ask a barrage of off-topic questions. All six were closed, five were deleted, three received downvotes (to a total of -5), and none received upvotes. My understanding is that this should have been more than enough to trigger a question ban.

But a couple of days ago, after a five-year absence, this user returned and posted another off-topic question, which was heavily downvoted and closed. There's nothing in their profile to suggest that they're question-banned, and that this was their one post in six months. There are therefore two possibilities:

  1. My understanding of the algorithm is wrong, and their (IMHO, abysmal) question record wasn't enough to trigger the question ban;
  2. They were question-banned back in 2015, but their questions from back then have aged away to some extent, enough to lift the ban.

Obviously, this user isn't the greatest example of why questions should be allowed to age away, as they've clearly learned nothing about our on-topic guidelines in the five years since they last posted. But their record does suggest (and the other mods on that site agree with me) that there must already be something in place to permit this.

1
  • 1
    I think the way it works is that if you're in the ban tier, you get essentially two questions a year (one every six months) to prove that you can ask good questions, or to at least try to convince you to put the shovel down. It was, in SE standards, fairly recent, so it's kinda a bummer that the person that was banned decided to not reflect on their long absence from the site.
    – Makoto
    Commented Mar 23, 2021 at 0:04
-9

No.

We want better quality questions, not more questions. If a user is able to post a good question after working on it for the 6 months then it is a success. If we let users post new questions without them proving that they are capable of writing good questions then what was the point of banning them?

Question ban should take the whole posting history of a user. Some questions get very little traffic. Some of them are only viewed by a handful of people for 5 or 10 years. Just because a question is old it doesn't mean that the asker has learned how to post better questions now.

If the system imposes a question ban on someone then the only way for them to redeem is to prove to us that they can write useful questions now. It might take several good questions before we start to trust them with such privilege again.


An alternative proposal.

The algorithm should take into consideration only last 6-8 questions regardless of when they were posted. This would ensure that if a user's recent contributions are redeemable they can get out of the ban much quicker, but avoid situations that would cause the ban to expire after a certain time passes.

5
  • 7
    But 0-score questions are also considered bad by the algorithm. I believe there are questions that are simply very specific and won't attract upvotes even when they are valid questions for SO.
    – akuzminykh
    Commented Jan 17, 2021 at 16:05
  • 4
    @akuzminykh If you're referring to this comment, I think what rene meant (and I'm only speculating here) is that 0-score questions won't get you out of a ban. If that's correct, they're not really considered bad; they're just neutral. I would be very shocked to learn that 0-score posts can cause a ban.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Jan 17, 2021 at 16:22
  • 1
    @akuzminykh "What matters are poorly-received posts. That is, questions that are downvoted, closed, or flagged as inappropriate in some way. These can all result in post bans" (Can self-censoring end up with a question ban?). For a banned user, only impact of 0-score question is it "refreshes" the block for asking next question for 6 more months
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 17, 2021 at 17:48
  • 2
    -1 for No and +1 for an alternative proposal, total score change: 0. Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 10:43
  • @41686d6564 I do remember reading that it accounts for something. one zero-scored post won't do anything to you, that would be ludicrous. Many zero-scored posts... that likely counts for something. As a random example, an account with 20 questions where 19 are zero-scored cannot be seen as a source of quality content even if the one remaining question is upvoted.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 16:39
-11

I wonder how will the change if any would affect those who did the opposite: were asking good questions in past and suddenly ask several poor ones.

Disregards, I have a question: why do we keep old deleted poor questions of users? That makes sense for banning them, sure. But why keeping them forever?

My proposal: remove deleted poor questions older than X (2 years?) from database at certain cleaning phases (once a month). If there is a date of deletion, the same could be applied to positive deleted questions too: if it was not undeleted for 2 years, then who cares?

1
  • I imagine that that this is far harder to implement than it is proposed, I am sure this is all stored in a relational database which will force data integrity and I'm sure questions can be linked to all over the place, making them really hard to delete without wreaking havoc on other systems as you'd have to clear references to the question wherever it exists. Making them so a specific and finite list of systems ignore them seems far easier to achieve.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 16:02
-11

I totally agree with this. Moreover users should be warned about the consequences of down-voting the question somehow, that the poster can get blocked.

That this isn't a feature to express digress, but poor intent.

The system shall be set in such a way that it doesn't allow people to simply silence opinions they don't agree with.

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    The point of the question ban is to keep users from asking a lot of bad questions. If their bad questions aren't downvoted, then how will the system know that they're bad? And I'm not sure what your point about "opinions" is; there's no question ban on Meta and you shouldn't be asking opinion-based questions on the main site to begin with. Commented Mar 22, 2021 at 18:11
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    The site will ban you, not only for having bad questions, but for not having questions upvoted. Asking niche questions, even if extremely useful for a few, will get you banned. As most people don't vote on questions. Commented Mar 23, 2021 at 19:41
-13

I'd like to begin this answer with the caveat that the whole issue of question bans is something that I've never paid much attention to until this Meta was posted, and so my knowledge of the topic is somewhat limited. I have skimmed What can I do when getting “We are no longer accepting questions/answers from this account”? before, but mostly so that I knew where to point users when they asked on Meta about why they were banned from asking questions on Main.

With that being said, I am strongly in favor of this proposal that old poorly-asked questions should age away. In fact, I have a slightly different proposal but one which I think is very much in the same spirit, and I believe might be quite simple to implement, as opposed to tweaking the current algorithms.

I propose that users should have the option to simply start afresh, i.e. users should be able to choose to have all prior history beyond a certain time frame be discounted, and only posts within that time frame should be used to evaluate whether they should be question banned.

I don't have a concrete proposal for what that time frame should be; 6 to 8 months might be too recent, while 6 to 8 years is probably too long. A reasonable number would likely lie somewhere between these two bounds.


The primary reason I think this would be an improvement is that the current question ban system seems terribly broken to me. If I'm understanding it correctly, the appropriate way to get oneself out of a question ban is to improve one's poorly received questions. I've looked into a number of questions that have contributed to the user's question bans, and I think that would be an extremely hard task, to say the least. Not for nothing, but I think I have a reasonable grasp of how to frame a question so that it's well-received. Looking at many of those questions, I think it would be beyond my abilities to improve those questions to the point that they would be well received. In fact, I think it would be quite an interesting experiment to see how many 20k+ users could improve those posts enough to be well received. Yet, we expect novice users who have already demonstrated difficulties with asking good questions, to do exactly that. This seems to me to be a distinctly Kafkaesque system, and frankly, I'm impressed that any users actually have the determination and will power to dig themselves out of the hole that they have gotten themselves into. It's not surprising to me to hear that many users give up on the whole thing, and instead resort to other ways of getting around the ban, such as creating new accounts.

Simply being able to start afresh would be a reasonable way to solve this problem. Basically, we would be requiring question-banned users to contribute content of the same quality that we expect from new users. If they can do this, then great, and from Stack Overflow's point of view there's no harm in it if that same user happened to have posted poor content a long time ago. If it turns out that they have not learned how to post good content, then within short order they will be question banned again, and will have to try again after the time limit has ended. I suspect (though I have not done any rigorous analysis) that this additional cost of curation would be marginal; an average of 1 additional question per month from a question-banned user that would need closing is not all that much relative to the number of posts that get closed as a regular matter. On the other hand, the benefits to be had from not putting question-banned users through a gruelling ordeal for no particular purpose that I can discern, would be substantial.


There appears to be considerable opposition to the idea that question-banned users should be forgiven their transgressions. This opposition is from very seasoned members of the community, so I'm disinclined to ignore it. However, I cannot really see why this opposition is so strong. Yes, users need to prove that they can contribute in a manner that is deemed appropriate. But the requirement that they improve their previous contributions seems to be flawed, for reasons that I mentioned above.

Also, purely as a matter of consistency, this is not how we treat other kinds of suspensions; they are simply meant to be an indicator that the user needs to reevaluate how they've interacted with the site. If one is flag banned, one takes a break from flagging and then comes back to it, hopefully with a better understanding of how to raise flags. There is no expectation that previous incorrect flags be improved. Similarly, when a user's account is suspended for having differences of opinions with other users that they could not resolve amicably, the user takes a break, and then comes back to interacting with the site. Just as if they had never been suspended, but hopefully with a better understanding of how to have differences of opinions with other users in a more productive manner. They are certainly not expected to demonstrate that they can repair any previous fights they've had before they are allowed to start participating again.

I'm suggesting that we do the same with question-bans. When a user is question-banned they should take a break from the site, and when they come back, they hopefully will have a better understanding of how to post valuable content, but without the stain of previously posted bad content being held against them.

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    there is already a system feature allowing users to easily start afresh. If they delete and recreate account then they can post once a week (and this limit can be later removed if they maintain positive posting record)
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 11:38
  • @gnat Oh, I'm confused, I thought doing that counted as ban evasion. I'll read that MSE post in detail, thanks for the link.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 11:40
  • 1
    You seem to be describing more or less the system that we currently have. Accounts that are question banned get a chance to post a new question every 6 months. This is their chance to start fresh. However, one lucky questions doesn't invalidate their previous 10 bad questions.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 11:44
  • @Dharman Don't the bad questions from more than 6 months ago, e.g. questions posted 3 years ago, count against the user?
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 11:45
  • I'm not quite sure how your proposal differs from the one in the question. Do you mean that on button press, older questions/answers/comments get ignored for just the q-ban? Do you mean that old content is disassociated completely, i.e. all questions/answers/comments older than the cutoff get transferred to the Community user? The former seems like the question proposal, merely swapping an automatic trigger for a manual one. The latter seems... excessive. Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 11:45
  • @MisterMiyagi The latter. Yes, I see why that seems excessive. At the moment, I feel that's a reasonable approach. btw, I'm not sure about the "transferring to community" bit. I just mean that those contributions shouldn't count towards the question ban. Also, it's not very different from the OP's proposal I agree. If it were very different, I would probably post a different question as a feature-request.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 11:46
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    @gnat I've read the link you shared, and I don't understand how it applies at all. Also, if that is indeed a viable approach to be able to post questions within a week, then why is that option completely missing from the SO FAQ on what to do when question banned?
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 12:34
  • 3
    I can easily see this option right there, in the SO FAQ you referred: "If you opt to delete your account and then later return to the site, your ability to ask questions may be limited to one question per week until you have demonstrated an ability to ask useful questions." If this doesn't qualify as reasonable way to start afresh then I don't know what does, letting them restart without rate limit at all, keeping all of the rep, bending over the folks with poor asking history in some other way
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 12:42
  • 2
    @gnat If that's considered a viable option, then I find it rather strange that the text you quoted is one of the bullet points under "Penalties for violating this restriction can vary". When I read that, it seemed to me that I would be doing something wrong if I did that. It says it's a penalty, which doesn't really read like an option.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 12:55
  • this option being viable doesn't mean it is recommended / advertised. Proper way to lift the ban is editing and improving prior questions; recreate account is intended for limited use, kind of of an escape hatch for users who tried the recommended way and discovered that it didn't help
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 14:03
  • 2
    @gnat Yes, I'm aware of the "proper" way. My claim is that it's very hard to go about doing that. I find it unfortunate that this alternative is not advertised, as I suspect many users are completely unaware of this option, and would choose this route if they knew about it.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 14:19
  • advertising this would be slippery - please notice how this option involves losing all past contributions and reputation. I think if it was presented as something avisable we'd get quite a bunch of complaints from folks choosing this option, "oh it was promoted to me as good way but I didn't realise that this caused losing all my rep, I would rather try harder to improve my prior questions if I knew"
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 14:24
  • 1
    @gnat I see your point about advertising this without making it very clear what the consequences are. On the other hand, the current wording is actively misleading, and obfuscates that as being an option at all. It's framed basically as a penalty instead. Do you happen to know of a MSO post that explains how this process works? Assuming one chooses to do so, knowing the consequences. If there's only an MSE post, that's fine. The one you linked is nice, but talks about a specific aspect of the process, namely the one week limit. A more general post would be nice if you happen to have one.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 15:06
  • 1
    @gnat Yes, that looks like it has the information I'm looking for. Thanks a lot for all the help, I appreciate it.
    – cigien
    Commented Jan 18, 2021 at 15:28
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    This proposal would have the advantage of reducing the incentive to create sock puppets to evade the ban (which often doesn't end well) and give people affected by a question ban a path to normalization.
    – D.W.
    Commented Jan 19, 2021 at 3:05

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