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Update

The Downvotes survey was turned off Nov 12. It ran for four weeks and produced 1,455 responses. View the results

Original post

Starting tomorrow, we are launching a survey to gain insight into why users downvote questions and answers on Stack Overflow. When you click the downvote button, you may see an invitation to take the four-question survey.

Please note, we are not seeking feedback on the survey methodology or questions. We already asked moderators for their thoughts, and we incorporated some of their feedback. The purpose of this post is to give you a heads up on what we are doing and why.

Why are we researching downvotes?

That's a question that some of you posed when we mentioned this research in our Q3 Roadmap blog post.

Here's the answer.

In our ongoing Site Satisfaction Survey, voting is consistently one of the top 10 things that users find most frustrating or unappealing about using Stack Overflow. Many users report feeling confused and discouraged when their posts are downvoted.

What's more, they often don't understand why they are getting downvoted, and they often don't get guidance on what they can do to improve their posts.

On the other hand, downvoting is one of the primary mechanisms we use to protect our site quality. So we want to categorize the reasons why users downvote and see which categories are most likely to drive the decision. We also want to understand whether users tend to take additional actions after they downvote, such as commenting, editing, or voting to close.

In the long term, we want to strike a better balance between ensuring site quality and providing a constructive, inclusive experience for all. We will use the qualitative data from this survey as a starting point for exploring how to improve the downvote experience and potentially provide more constructive feedback for post authors. There is no development planned at this stage.

How will we conduct the survey?

A random sample of users who click the downvote button will see the survey invitation. We will start the sampling at 10%, but may increase it depending on the response rate. Our goal is to collect at least 500 completed surveys. Based on the projected volume of downvotes and survey completions, we estimate that it may take four months to hit this target.

To prevent users from being bombarded with survey invitations, we will exclude users who have received an invitation to take the Site Satisfaction Survey within the last 90 days, those who previously dismissed the Downvote Survey invitation, and those who previously clicked through to the survey.

After we've analyzed the survey results, we'll report back to you with our findings.

Here are the questions we're asking

  1. Why did you choose to downvote this last post? Select all that apply.

    1. The question or answer was unclear or unuseful

    2. The post-author should make an edit

    3. The post was obviously spam (unsolicited advertisement)

    4. The post did not demonstrate that sufficient research or sufficient effort was put in by the post-author

    5. Other (please describe): [text box]

  2. In addition to your downvote, what other actions did you or will you take on this post? Select all that apply.

    1. I only downvoted

    2. I left a comment

    3. I made/suggested an edit

    4. I voted to close

    5. I voted to delete

    6. I upvoted an existing comment

    7. I flagged the post

    8. I followed the post

    9. Other (please describe): [text box]

  3. Who do you think your downvote helps to inform?

    1. The post-author

    2. Other users

    3. Both the post-author and other users

    4. Neither the post-author nor other users

  4. (Optional) Please elaborate on your answer to the previous question (whether you think your downvote helped inform the post-author and other users): [text box]


Let me introduce myself đź‘‹

In case you are wondering: "Who is the person writing this?" I am a product manager who joined the Public Platform team in September. This team has gone by many names over the last few years, but we are the team that directly works on improving and maintaining our Q&A sites.

I have been a Stack Overflow employee for nearly four years and have held a variety of roles, including leading the team that produces our annual Developer Survey.

I have admiration and respect for all of the experts and dedicated volunteers who make our sites an invaluable resource, so let me officially say thank you. I am excited to build things that make it easier for you to curate our sites and easier for developers of all skill levels to get the answers they need.

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  • 47
    "Our goal is to collect at least 500 completed surveys. Based on the projected volume of downvotes and survey completions, we estimate that it may take four months to hit this target." - Based on my own voting habits and the habits of those that I know, I would expect it to take less time than this, that said, best of luck and here's hoping you get more than 500 responses. Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 15:58
  • 47
    Huh... so off to cast as many downvotes as possible to trigger a survey I may or may not be elligible for I go,
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 16:02
  • 31
    Great to see this, although it's odd to me that balancing "a constructive, inclusive experience for all" and "site quality" is given as ground truth at the outset of the survey. This seems like a false dichotomy; downvotes are (the non-serial/revenge variety, anyway) certainly constructive. I don't see that they're non-inclusive, either; they're a way of indicating disagreement, a healthy ingredient in any community.
    – ggorlen
    Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 16:56
  • 11
    @Zoe It's once per user if you either dismiss it or take the survey. It's once per post in the sense that it will continue to show every time you downvote until you take action.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 17:00
  • 41
    It would greatly surprise me if it took four months to get your 500 surveys. The veteran community is more than happy to provide this kind of information; given the volume of questions asked on Stack Overflow, I would expect it to take a couple of weeks. Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 17:03
  • 12
    @Nick You may very well be right about the time to get to 500...my estimation was questioned internally as well. I was conservative because each downvoter only gets to take the survey once. We'll see!
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 17:08
  • 27
    Have you considered the effect of announcing this? It's entirely possible users will downvote more because they're interested in this survey and want to see if they get it.
    – Erik A
    Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 17:08
  • 15
    Ok. Prediction. Top votes order will be 1. The post did not demonstrate that sufficient research or sufficient effort was put in by the post-author followed by The question or answer was unclear or unuseful ,2=> I voted to close followed by I only downvoted , 3 => Both the post-author and other users followed by The post-author
    – TheMaster
    Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 17:17
  • 30
    "In addition to your downvote, what other actions did you or will you take on this post?" - You have literally all this information already, don't you? It seems like it would take a simple SQL query or two to link a downvote to other actions taken by the same user on the same post.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 18:14
  • 10
    Thanks for doing this. I am not a new user and I am regularly frustrated by downvotes without context on my questions. Was it a bad question? Was it poorly communicated? Was the downvoter just too lazy to read and understand it? Is their interpretation of the rules different than mine? If it was bad help me understand how so i can fix it.
    – xdhmoore
    Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 18:20
  • 20
    @BryanKrause If the goal is to figure out how downvoters think, then we're on very different pages about the problem that needs fixing here. While some downvotes seem basically random, I generally have no problem figuring out why a post that received multiple downvotes was poorly received. Thus I conclude there's already a fairly strong consensus about the reasons for downvoting and the question that needs answering (or might need answering, maybe) is how many posts we get with which problem, and which actions are taken on those posts.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 19:04
  • 25
    "I was conservative because each downvoter only gets to take the survey once. We'll see! " The reasons I downvote, however, can vary dramatically. Getting me to fill in the survey once will tell you why on that one, but my next vote could be for completely different reasons. A Homework question with no attempts, a "Why didn't this work?" with no [mre], a question with images of data/code/errors, or a question asking for software recommendations all get a downvote from me, but the survey I completed on the homework help downvote would have very different answers to the one with images.
    – Thom A
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 13:31
  • 15
    @ThomasOwens Apparently there was a desire for this to not be featured and there was a miscommunication on that front. The Community Team doesn't want people deliberately trying to downvote just to trigger the survey.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 15:08
  • 10
    @Machavity I don't think that's a good reason to not feature this. People should be aware of it, and featuring (or allowing to become a Hot Meta Question) is how people become aware of these things. Perhaps this should have been announced with sufficient time before the survey began to let it be featured for a while. There's a whole bunch of stuff that isn't going well here. Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 15:20
  • 11
    @ThomasOwens I am new to the team and didn't know that there was a protocol involved in asking the mods re: featuring the post / Hot Meta Posts. Totally an oversight on my part.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 15:52

16 Answers 16

151

This survey is an exercise in futility. You already know why people downvote. It is basically a repeating theme in comments and answers on literally every question about "Why is my post downvoted" ever asked on Meta SO. And such questions get posted daily.

There are also numerous posts about why generally people who downvote don't leave comments. For instance: Why isn't providing feedback mandatory on downvotes, and why are ideas suggesting such negatively received?

Also increased pressure to "be nice to the point of absurdity", aka the Welcome wagon, additionally increased reluctance to post comments. We are constantly being told that our comments asking for improvements and offering guidance are "offensive" and "not welcoming" and that we should just cast close votes and downvotes. So that is exactly what we are doing.

Many users report feeling confused and discouraged when their posts are downvoted.

What's more, they often don't understand why they are getting downvoted, and they often don't get guidance on what they can do to improve their posts.

On the other hand, downvoting is one of the primary mechanisms we use to protect our site quality. So we want to categorize the reasons why users downvote and see which categories are most likely to drive the decision. We also want to understand whether users tend to take additional actions after they downvote, such as commenting, editing or voting to close.

This is also something that is repeated again and again and again. What is happening is primarily due to SO/SE's failure to properly inform new users about rules before they post their first question or answer. We have been repeatedly told that explaining rules is not welcoming. I guess downvotes and close votes are...

No amount of surveys nor analyzing will magically solve those issues. We all already know what is wrong and what the first steps toward solving those problems are. The company just needs to listen and do something about it.

JUST CLEARLY EXPLAIN THE RULES.

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    Right now, the tour says “Ask questions, get answers, no distractions”, so no wonder new users get disappointed that they get no answers but downvotes and/or comments pointing out what should be improved - when this is not distraction, what is? Nobody told them to ask good questions...
    – ead
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 0:01
  • 10
    Take into account that those who actually participate in meta may not at all be a representative sample of the actual users. The willness to try to get feedback in another way than from meta discussion is highly interesting and shows will to analyze objective data rather than the same biaised sample of opinion.
    – Pac0
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 3:52
  • 7
    Learning the rules is not something that happens just by reading a long introduction upon account creation. It is something that happens over time as people post and get feedback. And a downvote is an important part of that feedback, it is part of explaining the rules. But to be effective in helping people learn the rules, it should convey more information than a simple false, especially when users are receiving that info not from a computer/rule validator but from another person.
    – xdhmoore
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 5:34
  • 22
    @xdhmoore Yes, learning the rules takes longer than reading some intro. Current problem is that intro is so poor it deserves down vote and close vote. We need better intro. People don't even know there are rules and that their poorly received questions or answers can lead to post ban. If you clearly communicate punishment then those who care will take more time to learn at least some rules. And then will be more willing to listen when someone comments on their post asking for improvements.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 7:20
  • 11
    @ead We're often expected to know what the error is without seeing it, know what they're trying to achieve without being told, know what their algorithm does without explanation, etc. The questions these kinds of people are distractions from helping people who can actually express themselves. In life, as well as on here, if you need help you need to explain what it is you need help with. Most often that's in the form of "I'm trying to do X, I did Y but that didn't work." ideally with "Z happened" to top it off. It's not a huge ask, or rocket science, to just have that much information. Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 7:49
  • 28
    For example, I just saw this question not 15 minutes ago. Why is this worth anything more than a downvote and a close vote? The person asking hasn't put any effort in - why should we? Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 7:55
  • 50
    The approach of the survey is to implicity blame down-voters for making the site "unwelcoming", rather than blaming the posters for posting crap.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 8:25
  • 12
    Bravo to this answer - but yet again no one at SE/SO will listen.
    – JonH
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 12:35
  • 5
    "Right now, the tour says..., so no wonder new users get disappointed" Ha, good joke, @ead, you think suggest users actually take the tour. ;) Next you'll suggest they take the time to read some of the Help center articles or Questions/Answers in the FAQ. 🤣
    – Thom A
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 13:58
  • 7
    @Raedwald Downvoters are already "awarded" by -1 rep, what else to expect. Not to mention that -2 rep is essentially nothing compared to +10 per upvote, making downvotes not work as community moderation tool well. Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 15:15
  • 7
    @ChristianStrempfer If company really wants to address the problems - help onboarding, then they have to clearly explain at least some basic rules before people ask their first question. If they want to address those problems expecting that we will provide guidance and handholding every for new user, then this will fail. Simply there are so many new users posting poor posts that we cannot guide them all. Flood of new poor questions would need to be drastically reduced before community would be able to provide sufficient guidance for those that need just s little bit of help.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 19:23
  • 7
    @ChristianStrempfer I'm sure there are countless Meta posts that covers many different angles of what could be done to improve this. SO has shown a pattern of ignoring what Meta has to say, villainizing those who try to improve site quality and trying to solve the wrong "problems", while still saying words that sounds nice. So it's understandable to not go into too much detail about what needs to be done or how it should be done yet again. Also, they didn't ask what we think needs to be done, nor did they ask how we think they should go about doing what's suggested in this answer.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 21:08
  • 3
    @ChristianStrempfer When you are sick, would you prefer your actual illness to be cured or you are satisfied with only treating your symptoms? Downvotes are the symptom here, there is very little that can be done around them without tackling "whatabaout" complaints and properly onboarding new users - this is the real problem. We don't have time to wait 6 months for results of this survey that will lead us nowhere, while site is literally dying a bit every single day.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 16, 2020 at 8:45
  • 3
    @ChristianStrempfer This is post about survey. I am commenting the survey and I also said what is the first step - explaining the rules before people post their first post. How to do that is beyond this post. Also this problem that it is too easy to post without knowing the rules has been already discussed on Meta numerous times. Every time this idea has been dismissed because it is not welcoming to new users. Throwing more detailed ideas when you know nobody is listening is waste of time. If company comes here and asks how to present rules to new users, I will certainly be more constructive.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 17, 2020 at 18:55
  • 3
    The rules should also be explained when new users start getting those downvotes, not only before they post. Lessens the initial blow when something in the system tells them not to be alarmed or offended but something is probably amiss in the question
    – charlietfl
    Commented Oct 19, 2020 at 3:32
85

I think on first take, this survey is headed in the right direction. I am especially heartened by the section addressing that downvoting is an important part on the community rather than an unfriendly action.

However, I do notice that the focus of this survey is directed at the person downvoting. I think the important user research to understand here is actually on the other party, the person who asked the question. By and large I expect your answers on why a person downvoted to be primarily

The post did not demonstrate that sufficient research or sufficient effort was put in by the post-author

(Whereby 'sufficient research' also encompasses sufficient knowledge of the site's rules, and a check for duplicates, which is by no means a given)

I think what you really want here is the other side of this interaction. How did the asker respond to this downvote. This is because the assumed negative interaction is between the system and the asker.

In order to obtain an understanding of this assumed negative interaction, it should be understood. Why did they feel this way? Is this a motivating experience or a defeating one? What actions will they take to address it? Is it a lack of knowledge, of understanding the sites rules? What resources could be provided to ease the experience?

While some disregard such explorations as forgone conclusions, I personally will wait until the results come. Having formalized data to back those qualitative assumptions would be helpful for determining future decisions.

One thing I will add is that to some degree, those unwilling to interact with the site in bettering their question will be less likely to answer such a survey, so there is some statistical concerns there.

Overall it looks like a good direction.

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  • 27
    Great feedback, we will keep this in mind as we do UX research
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 18:10
  • 5
    It might also be useful to look back in time for the research. What did the post-author do before the downvotes? Did this measurably differ from upvoted authors? Can this be detected before the post goes live, and could that prediction be used to prevent the downvotes? The goal should not be to prevent downvotes, but to prevent posts which deserve downvotes.
    – MSalters
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 11:43
  • 2
    What did they do, or what did they not do? Does there exist a correlation between people who haven't read the tour and downvotes? Fortunately there is the informed badge to tell just that.
    – code11
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 13:31
39

We already asked moderators for their thoughts, and we incorporated some of their feedback.

Honestly, you didn't do a good job of this.

Looking now, I see that a question was posted on the Moderator Team 9 days before go live of this change. Personally, I don't think that's a good way to solicit feedback from moderators. Seeing it requires that the moderator either visits the team on a regular basis, visits Stack Overflow and has the Team expanded and sees this question there, or gets the Team newsletter and this question happens to appear in it. I know that I don't fit into the first two categories and I don't recall seeing this in the team newsletter. In addition, this excludes every moderator who does not want an account on SO for any reason (privacy is a commonly cited reason).

I believe that more effort needs to be made to notify moderators when there is something that they can review and give feedback on. There are methods to do this, such as the Orange Diamond notification or sending an email (the new moderator agreement gives the company the ability to email moderators about "moderator-relevant content during my tenure as a moderator").

We also want to understand whether users tend to take additional actions after they downvote, such as commenting, editing or voting to close.

Why do you need a survey to do this?

All of these actions should be maintained in the database, along with timestamps. You'll be able to determine things like if people took an action before or after downvoting, the level of engagement (such as multiple edits), or time gaps between action (a downvote and then a close vote minutes or hours later versus seconds later). A survey really can't get into this level of detail that some kind of analytics can.

Of the questions that you present, only two (the reason for downvote and who the downvote informs) can't be gathered with data. An optional pop-up on every downvote can collect this information and associate it with the downvote itself and can then be pulled into those analytics described above.

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  • 2
    I think sending out emails en masse or the orange diamond notification aren't ideal for the feedback moments. I think the intended purpose of asking the moderators for feedback is not really to give it a stamp of approval, but rather a way to avoid some errors in either the proposal itself or its communication. As such, not all mods need to be informed and I think mods may decide this is not worth their time. Maybe a better idea would be to have a mailing list or something for this particular purpose, such that only the mods interested in providing feedback are notified. Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 7:24
31

I'll make one negative and one positive point of feedback on your premise in this post (and this initiative).

But first - pleased to make your acquaintance, Ms. Taylor! I appreciate that you've chosen to treat us, as a community, seriously and respectfully. It hasn't gone unnoticed. :-)

Now for my actual feedback.

In our ongoing Site Satisfaction Survey, voting is consistently one of the top 10 things that users find most frustrating or unappealing about using Stack Overflow.

So, the whole survey is somewhat problematic, in that it seems to focus to a great extent on the subjective experience of asking questions. The curation of a body of Q&A is the over-arcing objective here, and answering individual users' questions is secondary to that, even if the two can't be separated. Most use of Stack Overflow is searching for answers to questions, not community interaction. And - it is not for the survey-takers (nor for the survey-conductors) to change the priority of objectives based on what sampled users like or dislike.

Also, the results analysis seems to treat low-plurality results as though they were majority opinion. Around 90% did not describe an "unwelcoming community" as a concern at all (except perhaps in questions I haven't seen). Is this because the community seems welcoming to 90% of people, or because they didn't mind very much? We don't have that information. 10% of people dislike some aspect of the site design. Does that mean the people are demanding a dark theme? Or even any design change? We can't say and, probably, neither can you.

Having said that - I personally feel that the treatment of question askers, and new users specifically, is often somewhat abrasive. Which brings me to:

Many users report feeling confused and discouraged when their posts are downvoted.

What's more, they often don't understand why they are getting downvoted, and they often don't get guidance on what they can do to improve their posts.

I very much agree that downvotes for unclear reasons are discouraging, confusing and frustrating. This is true not just for "newbies", but for experienced users as well (although we experience this less frequently). There are practical hurdles to justifying every downvote - it requires some time and effort, and possibly further engagement with the poster; and if you multiply it by a high number of questions an experienced user my be looking at, it certainly adds up. Still, personally I try not to downvote without saying why (or at least - without someone else having explained why).

There's also the fact (?) that people tend to downvote more on SO than on several other SE network sites.

I wonder, however, whether the survey results would really help you with this situation all that much.

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  • @CodyGray: Why remove the implication part? It's significant.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 18:55
  • I've learned to delete my posts on meta when these things happen. It's working well for me. I think I also remember a very nice comment here earlier, that seems to have gone missing.
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 19:38
  • 1
    @Scratte: Yes, Shog9 was very gracious :-) ... but alas, that's gone.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 21:40
  • 3
    See the (unfortunately ungrammatical) revision comment that I left. There was a noisy discussion in the comments and flags that led to this. I evaluated the situation, and I felt that removing the implied swipe at various other SE co-workers serves no purpose other than to inflame. Anita (and others) is more likely to get the message you're trying to send if you don't wrap it up with an insult, and anyone who is paying attention will understand the implication even if it isn't spelled out explicitly. There's nothing wrong with the answer; it doesn't need to be removed.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 23:53
  • but for experienced users as well - I actually welcome a downvote, if I post a bad answer it should be noted: but it would be nice to have a reason in the comments.
    – wwii
    Commented Mar 12, 2021 at 16:12
  • @wwii: I was only talking about the case of "for unclear reasons". I doubt you welcome a downvote when have no idea what's wrong with your question...
    – einpoklum
    Commented Mar 12, 2021 at 17:46
30

Since the reasons for downvotes are, nearly always, obvious, this exercise seems like misdirected effort.

Why not perform a survey to ascertain the reason for upvotes, as many are totally inexplicable?

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  • 10
    I don't know... most downvotes are obvious to everyone but the OP? Some people also downvote for no reason. Literally.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 6:33
  • 28
    @10Rep 'Some people also downvote for no reason. Literally', please show your evidence for that claim. Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 6:42
  • 7
    This has been confirmed by other's. And also if you look at the fourth option on the third question, it says "Neither". So their downvote was useless and meaningless. I know it sounds weird but it does happen.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 6:45
  • 1
    To me it's low effort from either side, so let them. I'd rather expect to see statistic first, to show how we voting and demonstrate the need of changes (which are probably planned and survey is just a "show-off"). @10Rep, "no reason" is never a case, people always have their reasons. Someone may simply dislike your post, but most of time there is nothing personal, post is either wrong or low quality, or both.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 7:20
  • 17
    I, for one, would be thrilled to know why questions such as this one have gained an upvote.
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 8:59
  • 1
    @E_net4changesnameregularly Cannot answer that, but I can confirm it has just gained a second delete vote ;) Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 9:10
  • @E_net4changesnameregularly (totally my own theory) it seems a common practice amongst some who post answers to up-vote a question to try and gain 'something'.
    – Nigel Ren
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 16:20
  • 15
    @10Rep 'This has been confirmed by other's.', well, that's not exactly convincing evidence. It's anonymous hearsay, at best. It makes no sense, why would you, or I, believe it? The skilled and experienced developers on SO are used to totally disregarding 'feelings', (eg. 'I think the bug is in module x'), without firm evidence, so you can expect 'everyone knows it's true', to be ignored. Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 16:26
  • @MartinJames You can read the comments below my answer as well, for more detail.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 16:27
  • 1
    @MartinJames You must have missed the post about how Tim "lost my keys". Unless you think that's a valid reason. Is it hearsay if I was just to come with one example? I could say "I don't like green, so I just downvote everything where the avatar has green elements". Is that a reason?
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 20:06
  • 3
    "Nearly always obvious" - No, they aren't.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 22:55
  • 5
    @Scratte My interpretation of the Tim key losing story is that any attempt at gaining some kind of reasoning over just a downvote is a fool's errand, and if one can't find an obvious problem with the post, one should just shrug it off. The story does not mean to suggest nor teach that people are pressing the downvote button for ridiculous reasons such as losing one's keys.
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 16, 2020 at 16:54
  • 2
    @Scratte We could do this all day, but I'll just end with this: nowhere did I or Martin James state that bad reasons for voting do not exist. Suggesting that such behavior is pertinent is the problem, because there is no evidence of that.
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 19, 2020 at 15:26
  • 1
    @E_net4 You're right. But there is also no evidence that good reasons for downvotes exists. And this post states about upvotes that "many are totally inexplicable", which there is no evidence for either.
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 19, 2020 at 15:31
  • 1
    "Why not perform a survey to ascertain the reason for upvotes, as many are totally inexplicable?" Please yes. I always wondered, do upvotes mean that the content is really good or just that the voter had the same problem or just that the content is not totally useless. Commented Oct 20, 2020 at 9:09
21

I think the reason people get so upset by downvotes, is that they don't understand the purpose of downvotes:

Downvotes are not just for the person who made the post. They are also for other people.

If I am browsing questions to answer, and I see a question with -1, -2 or -3, then I am less likely to look at it. This is good. If you remove downvotes (which I suspect is what the end goal is here), then awful questions look the same as a brand new question. So it puts more work on people looking to answer questions, just so that we can spare people's feelings.

Same goes with answers. If we get rid of downvotes, then every crap answer looks pretty close to new answers. So you have to put more work into looking at dates, edits, and comments. Downvotes suck if you are receiving them. Yes, we all know this. But everyone just needs to get over it, as they bring more benefit than they do harm. If someone can't understand that, or refuses to accept that, then maybe Stack Exchange isn't the right community for them.

I would like to respond to this comment:

You say "don't understand the purpose", but an opaque downvote with no comment is hurtful, even if it has other purposes than reflecting on you as a poster.

No, it's not hurtful. Let’s assume for the purpose of argument, that every downvote is cast in situations where the downvoter feels the post is objectively bad. In that case, downvotes are a signal to the poster (and everyone else), that this content is bad.

The downvoter has no responsibility to explain why something is bad.

If they want to, then great for them. But it's been shown time and again, that many people simply don’t respond well to criticism, even friendly and constructive criticism. So if the downvoter want to remain silent, that's their right. If the poster can't understand what they did wrong, well that's why Meta exists, or maybe they can ask in chat.

But it’s certainly not hurtful. In the ideal situation, it’s a dispassionate and neutral way to say this is bad, make it better. Hopefully the poster will try to reflect upon what they have posted, and perhaps use some of the avenues I have suggested, instead of getting feelings hurt and accomplishing nothing.

6
  • You say "don't understand the purpose", but an opaque downvote with no comment is hurtful, even if it has other purposes than reflecting on you as a poster.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 22:50
  • 5
    There might be some difference between a downvote being intended as hurtful versus being received as hurtful. A downvote certainly is a negative message, and it may as such trigger a negative feeling. Blaming that on the downvote seems like a case of literally shooting the message, though. Commented Oct 16, 2020 at 8:50
  • 2
    I agree. My vote reflects my assessment of value to the community. It's (usually) nothing more and nothing less. It's frustrating (if not surprising, because humans) that folks take it personally. How may times have you read "don't downvote me"? Me. Not "my post".
    – isherwood
    Commented Oct 16, 2020 at 19:28
  • 3
    'but an opaque downvote with no comment is hurtful', maybe to some, but not as hurtful as being stabbed in the back on Facepalm/Twotter as 'hostile' and 'toxic'. So, if users insist that opaque downvotes hurt them then, in my own defense, I am going to continue to hurt them. I am not going to commit suicide to avoid supposed 'bad feelings'. Irrational backfire from those users who did not get their garbage questions answered immediately by SO drones has led to this, and I don't care about their feelings any more. Why should I comment and get slagged off? No, you get a vote, and that's all Commented Oct 20, 2020 at 9:15
  • @MartinJames I find it a bit going in circles. It seems your action on a post is a result of what happened with a different user on another post. But a "new user"'s posting style may be a result of their experience with another Stack Overflow user. There's also the tone of delivery of a message that plays into this. Your last comment here seems quite rough to me.
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 20, 2020 at 10:23
  • "If I am browsing questions to answer, and I see a question with -1, -2 or -3, then I am less likely to look at it. This is good." I'm going to analyze that last axiomatic statement: "This is good." If we take "goodness" as a scale from -100 to +100, that "goodness" has PRECISELY the same numeric value as the justification for that -1, -2, or -3. If the reason for the -1 is just a whim, a misunderstanding, or pure incompetence, then the justification for that -1 lives in the negative spectrum – and in that case, no, it's not "good" that you're less likely to look at that question. Commented Oct 22, 2020 at 13:34
20

"...we want to strike a better balance between ensuring site quality and providing a constructive, inclusive experience for all..."

Just a very small detail of the post, but I think like it's the central point here and that's why I want to draw attention to it, so it can always play a central role in all further considerations.

It's really difficult to maximize both, site quality and user satisfaction. So I hope the expectations aren't set too high there.

In particular, it's probably possible to sacrifice one at the costs of the other. In that case it would be important to be clear about your preferences on this topic. What is really more important if both cannot be achieved at the same time.

Site quality isn't great, the answer rate is dropping and dropping. It could be much better, I think. If only there would be less low quality questions, we would have more time helping users with high quality questions. Constructive experience... my feeling is that StackOverflow might not be the right tool for everyone. Some people would be better off with tutorials and tutoring than learning programming by asking here. Maybe it could be part of an inclusive experience to sometimes tell people if this is not the right thing for them. Kind of protecting them from an experience they most probably won't like much.

In summary: I like data gathering and I'm looking forward to see the data. I wish you all the best with this endeavor and hope you find ways to optimize the system even more and make it working for everyone while keeping the site quality as high as possible. But if in the end it's just about shifting the balance, I hope that the Meta community will at least be consulted before shifting it.

For more ideas from the meta community also see What can we do to encourage downvoting?.

1
  • 5
    Yes, I'm worried about this "better balance" rhetoric. That's saying "we want to change the balance, but we won't just plain say it, we'll just surreptitiously define the current state of affairs as bad." Anyway, "inclusivity" in the hand-holding, fun-experience guaranteed sense should always and definitively sacrificed in favor of quality when it's one or the other.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 22:55
16

A "user" comes newly to the site (1 point rep) - copies and pastes in a homework problem without even a question added (the question is implicit: "solve my homework problem"), gets downvoted by several and vote-to-close by more (with maybe a couple of "here's what you need comments" that are oh-so-polite because we can't just say "[mcve]" anymore due to "welcoming) - and then is never heard from again.

This is a problem because, why?

There's very very little chance that a person who goes around asking other people to solve their (basic, easy) homework problems for them is ever going to "read the rules" and "look around the site to see what's appropriate" and become a useful SO contributor.

Possibly there are other reasons to be interested in the reaction of people to downvotes, but whatever action is finally taken for them I sure hope it includes a way to chase away the solve-my-homework-problem questioners more easily and even faster.

2
  • 5
    1. It's a problem that questions that should just be closed get downvoted IMHO. 2. It's a problem because we want that person to understand what's the problem with their question, as they might improve their question-asking next time or just, you know, learn something in life. 3. Note that such users should be under-represented in the survey.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 22:52
  • 2
    Sometimes homework is posted by someone being paid through Fiverr to do others' homework. Often they will not even bother to make it look like a question (though it could greatly increase their "success rate" - important when the response time is required to be in hours rather than days). Commented Oct 16, 2020 at 17:33
6

One point I would like to consider: can you clarify the point about "sufficient effort"? This could either mean that the OP didn't put forth sufficient effort to solve their problem, or it could mean that they didn't put forth sufficient effort to formulate their question properly. I'm not sure exactly which one this is referring to. Also, I could downvote for either reason, so they really should be two separate choices.

5

I downvoted an answer today, and was invited to complete the survey, which I did. However, I just downvoted a question and was shown this:

Enter image description here

I'd be happy to fill out the survey multiple times, but shouldn't this be prevented by:

To prevent users from being bombarded with survey invitations, we will exclude users who have received an invitation to take the Site Satisfaction Survey within the last 90 days, those who previously dismissed the Downvote Survey invitation, and those who previously clicked through to the survey.

Unless you defined your days on a planet having a rotation period of about 30 seconds

Or are downvotes on answers and questions treated differently? I wouldn't presume so, given the single set of questions covering both questions and answers presented in the original post.

System setup:
Ubuntu 20.04.01 LTS (Focal Fossa)
Firefox 81.0 (64 bit)
uBlock Origin, Tampermonkey and Privacy Badger are enabled.

4
  • 8
    This is definitely a bug -- I'll have our developer look into it. Thanks for reporting.
    – Anita Taylor StaffMod
    Commented Oct 19, 2020 at 15:50
  • 2
    Can you provide information on your browser? When you interacted with the modal in any way, JavaScript on the page would have set a "notice-dvr" cookie which the server would use to stop serving you the toast. This is similar to cookies used for dismissing the announcement banners that can appear at the top of the page.
    – Brian Nickel Staff
    Commented Oct 19, 2020 at 16:36
  • 3
    I've not been able to reproduce this on FireFox 81 for Windows. Neither UBlockOrigin nor Privacy Badger are blocking the cookie, so it could be a specific user script interfering with it or something else entirely (cosmic rays?). Looking at the event data (not connected to the anonymous survey results), it appears that people aren't taking the survey twice, so I'm hoping it's not a widespread issue and that we can just let it be.
    – Brian Nickel Staff
    Commented Oct 20, 2020 at 18:40
  • 2
    Well then, here comes my chance to fill out 50 of the 500 surveys!
    – Adriaan
    Commented Oct 21, 2020 at 7:21
4

There appears to be a range of responses here from positive to negative, but I just wanted to throw in that I think it's really great that SE is looking to create concrete data for discussion.

Especially with regards to downvotes as a topic, this is something which it seems like a majority of experienced users already have a strong opinion about, or believe (for example) that "we already know why people downvote," so I greatly appreciate the desire and initiative to get real data to talk over and reference, whether internally in SE or with the community.

We can go talk around and around and around, but without actual data to reference, it's exceedingly difficult to make progress and agree on what's "really" going on here. I realize that data doesn't always solve such issues, and in the worst cases may lead to false impressions, but it does give a starting point and a concrete place to come back to.

Thank you for your past and continued investment into this platform, I really do believe these initiatives make a difference!

0

I think this is an important issue of user experience and how community members interact with one another through the voting system.

I'm glad this study is being made and I'm looking forward to the results.

A survey is also sociological research, I can only wish the team undertaking it: "Good luck!" Conducting a survey, drawing conclusions and properly writing them up on these matters is certain to not be easy. As the reaction by members holding firm views on these issues is bound to also not be easy.

In any case, it'll be interesting and hopefully yield meaningful data and insights.

-3

Have you ever considered doing some sort of NLP model on questions? Probably difficult to do, but perhaps you could do some natural language processing on people's questions (taking into account their user data, tags, etc), and if the model thinks it is going to be downvoted, suggest a few (specific) improvements to the user, and give a warning that this question seems likely to be downvoted?

Obviously there are many layers to this problem, but maybe that would be helpful for new users?

2
  • Related: there is a project created by community members to automatically detect spam posts (meta.stackexchange.com/questions/291301/…). This is rule-based but it works very well. There is also a machine learning model trained with fast.ai for finding offensive comments (meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/396472/…).
    – Marijn
    Commented Oct 27, 2020 at 11:16
  • Isn't this already (implicitly) done when deciding what questions go to the triage queue? Presuming the score is something like "likelihood of being badly received" (with inputs post content (text), votes, close votes (or just close state), views, etc.) Commented Oct 27, 2020 at 20:44
-9

Feedback

Please, add more resolution to downvote/close reasons. An unfriendly approach is not uncommon, and I think it's a reasonable bar to ask for more detail than "lack of research/quality", especially when that often turns out not to be the reason.


Browsing across operating systems

For example, can we make the site work well on iOS without having to use the Chrome "pretend to be a PC" option? A few buttons from the "full editor" at the top of the text panel on the already nice streamlined interface would really help, some of which could expand into extra options if needed. I don't mind it too much, but it's not ideal right now. Figuring out bold isn't great, and maths markup is like learning a markup language.


Pace

The process all the way to closing can be quite quick, not giving either feedback or time to try changes to the answer and learn what works. A literal 2 or 3 hours of fairly frequent checks and adjustments can be frustrating, especially if the question goes below zero votes, is clawed back to zero votes, and then immediately closed.


Expertise

It's hard to know that you're relatively new to a subject when you've been interested in it for a while and have done a fair bit of research. Also, many users can be sensitive to cues that someone lacks some/specific expectations, personal history, formal education at specific times, or background.

Often most important is not having encountered "obvious" terminology so using otherwise indistinguishable equivalents from other areas that are deeply unhelpful when searching. It's not uncommon for parts of descriptions to assume a lot of knowledge of the area, and not parse correctly if understood as a description.


Specifically

It can feel like a knife-edge striking the balance between content that is general enough for most of the community to understand, and specific enough to have the required level of subject-specific technical detail.

2
  • 4
    As someone voting, closing questions quickly feels like the entire point - not to punish the asker and prevent answers, but to quickly force the question into shape so that proper answers can be provided without delay. Remember that questions can be reopened just as quickly. Dragging out the entire process just means the asker sits on an unanswerable question longer, and the people that voted have waddled off and won't reverse their votes. Commented Oct 16, 2020 at 7:26
  • 5
    How is this related to the question?
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 19, 2020 at 4:43
-11

If you want detailed feedback from users, you have to add buttons for specific responses. If there is a question about what a downvote means, then "a downvote" is too vague a reaction for your purpose. It's that simple.

As a starting point / general inspiration, look up how modern text-based platforms offer custom image-based feedback:

The first public experiment that you launched earlier could have gone much better if you actually had useful reactions there. The entire set consisting of only "thanks" is not enough to launch this feature, as you might have already guessed from the passionate response.

The less public selection is also not enough, and not good enough for what it is.

Consider these specific, actionable, informative, helpful reactions instead:

  • Bad post formatting - wall of text or excessive line breaks;
  • Bad code formatting - relevant to SO and other coding sites;
  • Bad math formatting - relevant to sites with MathJax;
  • No research quoted - a "[citation needed]" sort of reaction, as seen on Wikipedia;
  • Lack of cursory research / Easily searchable - this informs the poster that maybe they could try googling at all, or more, using different keywords;
  • Bad explanation of the problem - lacks details or phrased too vaguely;
  • etc, whatever doesn't strictly fit into the close reason list but could be used as distinct piece of feedback to improve a question.

And to not seem so horrible and focused only on the bad, add positive versions of the same reactions, so that you could signal to the poster that you find their formatting pretty good, and that they have explained the problem very well, and listed great sources to support their claim / describe their problem.

Also consider taking into account the "We can't do anything about how you feel but you can tell us anyway" types of reactions that Twitter, Facebook, Youtube and other social media sites let users have just to filter out the useless attempts to actually report a post for something:

  • I like this post and I want to thank the poster - record it as a "Thanks" and show it to the thanker, and maybe to the thankee, but think about whether to show it to any third parties or not;

Most seasoned users shouldn't feel the need to use them, and might be offended at the mere offer at first, but this is intended for the passerby too easily upset type of users who may be bogging down the system with noisy votes (like most seasoned users consider a "thanks" reaction).


Over time, if the post is edited and these reactions no longer reflect the reality, there needs to be some indication of that, to not confuse the poster and visitors. I don't have a good solution for this problem at this time, I'm only bringing attention to it here, as it will definitely be important if this feature is attempted.


I don't know how you can make it look so it fits the UX language of the site and doesn't annoy the conservative userbase which dislikes emojis. Also I don't know how you can find instantly recognizable imagery to fit into a size of an icon. Maybe don't use images at all for this feature.

People have told you they don't want to comment because it's not possible to do so anonymously (which could and does result in vengeance-fueled serial downvoting in response even if you were not the one who left a downvote), and their only other option is the up/down arrows and close/delete "superdownvotes", which, however you or I dislike it, some people use as such. Maybe it's time to consider giving people more options?

Yes, this will complicate things. The eternal September will not make it easy. But it might just be worth it. Only time will tell, and only you can decide to try it or keep the status quo.

3
  • 5
    Your reactions sound very much like the close reasons.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 12:11
  • 2
    @Dharman, while that's true, we can't close answers to give this kind of feedback - it might still be helpful to categorize feedback on answers a bit more formally, like we have with close votes.
    – Welbog
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 15:24
  • @Welbog But downvotes already have feedback. It clearly states that the person who downvoted didn't find it useful. What about downvotes on answers? Are we applying the same reactions or are we forgetting about answers?
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 15:26
-20

When I joined the site many years ago, the documentation and rules were not so clearly visible and helpful as they are today (?). Then, I started learning and understanding SE rules, tags, rep system, and the general working of accessibilities and badges when I actually started asking, interacting (via comments, flagging, editing), or answering questions. Some got downvoted, some I deleted after downvotes, some got closed - and that's how I started to recognize the rules and working. So, in my opinion, it may get frustrated sometimes (even I used to get), but in the long run, it will help users to adapt to the rules, question formatting, and how-to-ask guidelines; when users continue to ask or interact with the site. But downvotes restrict this.

The main problem, according to me, lies in the frustration of losing reputation when something is downvoted. Reputations are linked with accessibilities. For new users, it becomes extremely restrictive in the beginning when they have limited accessibilities. In the process of adaptation and learning, even a single misfitting post/question wipes away their hard-earned reputation points almost instantaneously and they have to start all over again to get back the lost reps.

Till certain reputation points, if SO can develop some mechanism to not have the rep-losses on downvotes for the new users, then a person would keep asking, and learning and adapting to the site's rules, and guidelines. And that according to me is the best way to help a new user learn about site's rules and regulations. (You may put long documentations, rulebooks or videos - it won't help)

For example, let new users with rep less than 50, gets allowed to post first 10 (configurable) questions/posts for which the downvotes won't impact their reputations. This way he'd practically learn and adapt and if he didn't then from 11th question, downvotes would start affecting reps for him.

7
  • So the user stays at 1 rep for their first ten posts? Wouldn't that also be frustrating?
    – BSMP
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 7:50
  • 3
    No because If the post got upvoted, then reps will increase anyway. I talked about freezing reps decline on downvotes only. Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 8:08
  • 16
    You're not going to get anyone to agree to anything that eliminates the effect of down votes on reputation but not up votes; that's been suggested before. It'd result in people who aren't understanding the rules (or do understand and ignore them) getting access to moderation tools.
    – BSMP
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 8:14
  • 2
    Yes you are right. And so if someone remains ignorant, then from 11th post onwards downvotes will start impacting reputation. Anyway, 10, as mentioned too can be made configurable, and SO team can decide based on data what number fits there to make user avoid getting access to moderation tools. Central idea is, let the new user be given some freedom for limited posts to get used to this site. Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 8:18
  • 12
    I'd much rather see people be guided prior to asking their questions to prevent the massive amount off unanswerable/off-topic questions we get on a daily basis. I'm afraid giving people 10 freebie posts will only make things worst.
    – Ivar
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 8:41
  • 2
    -2 points is mostly symbolic. One should have no problem keeping a positive net score regardless of overall rep level. All it takes is at least a +1/-4 ratio. ...a person would keep asking, and learning and adapting to the site's rules, and guidelines -- they'll keep asking, but likely not the items in the list after that without some form of motivation to adapt, and dropping the minor point loss only kills another motivator.
    – ggorlen
    Commented Oct 15, 2020 at 14:16
  • 1
    It is not possible to detect new users, only new accounts. Commented Oct 20, 2020 at 9:23

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