728

Recently, Prashanth Chandrasekar introduced himself on Stack Overflow Meta and engaged with us. I, Aaron Hall, a moderator, wrote up my synthesis of where I think we currently stand, and I offered to meet with him. We did. My summary of the meeting is that:

  • Stack Overflow fully engaged on each issue and was not dismissive.
  • I did not feel patronized or talked down to.
  • I did feel they sincerely buy into the partnership with the community.

What follows is a more in-depth accounting of the meeting.

The new CEO, Prashanth, accepted my offer to meet.

At that point, I immediately went to work making notes to help me think about the situation. I applied every relevant mental framework I could think of. (See the source of this post for an abbreviated representation of the notes, which are html-commented out).

I also made an outline of what I wanted us to discuss, so I could record their response.

I took my notes and laptop to the company, arrived at 11:52, and was asked to wait in the mini-cafe by the front desk. At about noon, Ben Popper, Sara Chipps, and Prashanth Chandrasekar introduced themselves to me. We all grabbed a small plate of food from the cafeteria and headed down to a conference room.

I outlined my ambitions for the meeting.

Then we looked at my analysis notes and went back to the issues I outlined, where I took careful notes on the responses.

We had a small interruption for about a half hour, where Prashanth was called away, but asked us not to progress on the points while he was out.

I'm going to apologize up front to the individuals in the community. I may have missed an issue that is important to you. I may have mis-, over- or under-stated your case. I want you to know that I did my best to reflect the sense I can gather of the matters that I felt were most important to you.

A full transcript would have been impossible, and we did not make a recording, so I also did my best to be a good secretary, and take as good notes as I was able. Where I attribute and quote, "Stack Overflow," that is mostly CEO, Prashanth, but Sara and Ben also contributed here.

We spent the most of our time on the first few points. But I was careful to get responses on all of them. The remainder of this post has the points I raised, and the responses (as blockquotes), followed by my conclusions.

In General

  • Stack Overflow needs to get in front of issues before they become bad.
  • This is about feelings and emotions.
  • Users feel hurt.
  • We know employees feel hurt too.
  • We don't want people to be hurt.

Stack Overflow:

  • We (at Stack Overflow) are trying to define next era of company.
  • We wouldn't exist without the community.
  • Framework: community is foundational - under product, everything surrounds that.
  • Community has to be renewed.
  • Investment in community. Avoid being reactive.
  • Authentic voice of the company: action over words.
  • New processes to deliver.
  • Underpromise, overachieve.
  • Commit to get in front of problems before they get bigger.
  • This is the ultimate responsibility of the CEO, the buck stops here.
  • Stack Overflow spends a lot of time on these issues.
  • We need to explain the "why".

Firing of Community Elected Moderator, Monica Cellio

  • We, the community, assume Stack Overflow presumed bad faith on Monica's part.
  • We presume good faith on Monica's part.
  • We assert heavy-handedness, impatience, and lack of process on Stack Overflow's part.
  • We know the larger community cannot know the details.
  • Many users (especially moderators) have "Reinstate Monica" in their names and avatars.

(Note that we spent a good bit of time on this issue. I pulled up examples of moderators and users who feel so strongly about this issue that they have modified their avatars and usernames. I asked for Monica's unconditional reinstatement many times - when kindly rebuffed, I presented more information, answered more questions, and then asked again.)

Stack Overflow:

  • Legal settlement prevents discussion.
  • Anyone who was a moderator must go through the application for reinstatement process.

Community managers released from service

  • We, the community, assume they were fired.
  • We assume they were not fired for cause.
  • We know we cannot get more information.
  • We want you to bring Josh Heyer back as a contractor to contribute to community strategy.
  • Can he be eligible to run for moderator?

Stack Overflow:

  • Cannot comment on an employee that's no longer here.
  • We have huge respect for those who got us where we are today.
  • Anyone meeting the existing qualifications may run for moderator.

Licensing

  • MIT licensing of code was proposed, but held back due to community naysayers.
  • CC-BY-SA incremented from 3.0 to 4.0. - likely in good faith.
  • Vast majority of community likely fine with 4.0.
  • Vast majority not fine with fait accompli.
  • Some (a very few?) thought that this happened in bad faith.

Stack Overflow:

  • We have apologized for the fait accompli.
  • We want to signal our intent to keep up with future changes to CC-BY-SA.
  • We will create a process and be engaged on licensing issues on Meta.
  • We have had hours of meetings on this, and it is a big priority.
  • We have no intention of moving away from Creative Commons or paywalling users content in any way.

Minimax legal strategies

  • Minimizing chance of maximum loss will drive down the expected value of Stack Overflow.
  • Investors diversify to deal with this.
  • They want you to take the risks specific to you and reap the rewards specific to you as well.
  • We feel like the lawyers are in charge.

Stack Overflow:

  • We want an authentic voice in the community, not one characterized by buzzwords.
  • We're going to drive strategy, not our lawyers.
  • CEO will commit to continue posting on Meta at least quarterly.

Question Quality

  • Answerers feel like the quality of questions is in decline.
  • Answerers feel like the company doesn't care, and this motivates the "Welcoming" initiative.
  • Some users feel like Stack Overflow being support for platforms is a bad thing.

Stack Overflow:

  • Being welcoming is not mutually exclusive to question quality.
  • Question quality will still be gated by the mechanisms available to reviewers and answerers.
  • We keep a close eye on these metrics, product team is actively looking into it.
  • We've heard this, and it's making us look closer.
  • We want to maintain the site quality. We define it here.

Investment in tools and ongoing site development

  • We've seen indication of investment made in the past.
  • Users feel like we're not seeing more investment in improving the site.
  • We feel like this could improve the new user situation.

Stack Overflow:

  • We need the economic engine to sustainably invest back in the community.
  • We want to deliver in a product centered fashion.
  • How do we quantify this? The Loop.
  • We'll be publishing results from the survey that we just collected, which had around 5,000 respondents.
  • Along with The Loop, we also look to our site satisfaction survey, which reached around 10,000 respondents.
  • We want to be transparent about why we make the decisions we make regarding the site.

Being Welcoming

  • Most users feel like they're already welcoming.
  • To an individual user, it's always other users that are rude and unwelcoming.
  • If you tell me that I'm unwelcoming, I'm hurt and offended.
  • Instead of us all sharing the blame, we need to call out hurtful behavior when we see it.

Stack Overflow:

  • Site satisfaction survey still gives feedback that users' top concern is that they don't feel welcome. We need to listen to this data.
  • We appreciate that everyone means well and wants to help. Just getting involved in a community like ours signals that you want to help others.
  • Commit to being more welcoming while having high standards. Again, we believe a more welcoming community is not mutually exclusive with question quality.

Pronouns and future changes to the code of conduct

  • Intentional misgendering would already be considered abusive.
  • The vast majority of us understand the desire to continue to be more inclusive.
  • What is the process going forward to update the Code of Conduct?

Stack Overflow:

  • We want all users to feel respected.
  • We had users asking us for clarity around misgendering.
  • We want to be as understanding as possible.
  • We need all users to cooperate with the spirit of our policies.

What is the mission/vision of Stack Overflow

  • The mission that got us here is to create a repository of high quality Q&A.
  • This has evolved.

Stack Overflow:

  • We are still committed to creating a repository of high quality Q&A.
  • But our mission has also evolved.
  • For many years now our founder Joel and others have said our mission is: "Helping developers write the script of the future"
  • Recently our new CEO updated the mission statement: "Helping write the script of the future by serving developers and technical workers."
  • Changes:
    • adding, "technical workers," and
    • Stack Overflow is clarifying that we are, "serving."

How will Stack Overflow enshrine these commitments?

  • Promises are easy to make.
  • Promises are easy to break.
  • A balanced scorecard will allow management to
    • balance quarterly numbers with less tangible goals.
    • align non-financial goals with the overall strategy of the firm.
  • C-Suite accountability.

Stack Overflow:

  • We have rolled out 6 core values.
    • Community is one of these.
    • Employees that put community first will be rewarded.
  • We have defined top 5 strategic priorities for the year.
    • Community engagement and inclusion is an important priority.
    • Engagement is important to question quality.
    • We have specific metrics we want to increase.
    • How do we welcome more and more people.
  • Commit to fairness.
  • How do we quantify the qualitative relationship between the users and the firm
    • Surveys.
    • The Loop.
    • Friendly versus unfriendly comments.
    • We ask, "Are communities growing?"

Summary

In summary - I met with the CEO of Stack Overflow and some of his leadership team. They were all fully engaged with the discussion.

When they saw what I had prepared, and that I intended to make a full report back to the community, they wanted to extend our time together to immediately address each issue.

I felt that they were engaged on each of the concerns I raised.

I hope, as our partnership continues, that you get the same sense as well.

The question is, what do you think?


Response to comments

There have been comments that imply that vision and values are simply buzzwords that mean very little. I told the firm we either need to unpack these kinds of terminology, or avoid them altogether if it's not important.

So, since I think they're important, I'm going to follow my own advice, and do my best to unpack the meaning here.

Here's where I'm coming from: I have read many business textbooks written by, and taken many graduate level courses taught by, professors with PhDs in Psychology and Organizational Behavior, that assert vision is the foundational idea supporting the strategic management of the firm.

This is where we stop using, "management", and switch to "leadership".

Let me unpack these terms.

  1. Vision: This is what we aspire to be in the future.
  2. Mission: This states why we exist and what role we fit in society.
  3. Values: This is how we're going to do it.

It's true that these are words. They form a theory of how Stack Overflow (or any organization) is supposed to be run. We shall see how, in practice, they meet this theory.

The phrase, "gap between theory and practice" is a bit of a cliché (feel free to search it). As an organizational behavior professor of mine once said, "The gap between theory and practice is a lie." But the new management needs time to put its vision, mission, and values into practice. My ask is that we give them the presumption of good faith at this time.

65
  • 158
    Thank you, Aaron. I told you ahead of time in private that I thought you'd do a fantastic job as our "ambassador", and you have exceeded even my expectations. As you said, I'm sure you did not cover every issue or represent every single point of view, but you've done more than could have ever been expected, and this is a fantastic compilation.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 0:52
  • 161
    I'm seeing a lot of no comment, and "Employees that put community first will be rewarded." Is something... I feel hasn't been displayed, though of course they "Cannot comment on an employee that's no longer here." Especially taking into account what we've heard from the ex-CM team lately Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 0:52
  • 46
    Not saying all the answers make me feel all fuzzy and nice. It's far from perfect. Some of it is disappointing. But it's something. Thank you Aaron, and thank you Stack for engaging as well. Hopefully it's the start of a new future.
    – Patrice
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 1:04
  • 77
    Thank you for putting all this work in Aaron, I think you summed up most of the issues fairly well. Unfortunately I feel like I've learned very little from SO's responses. Do you feel like there are any notable new developments that came out of this meeting that haven't somehow been said by SO in the past? Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 2:42
  • 73
    Also, maybe I missed it in the swarm of meta posts, but do you know where We have apologized for the fait accompli happened? Can you edit in a link to that? I was under the impression that SO just did it and never looked back Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 2:43
  • 36
    Did you manage to get across to them that from our point of view, they are making blunder after blunder after blunder and as a result we have no confidence in them anymore?
    – JK.
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 3:47
  • 199
    I officially quit tracking stackoverflow saga development and participating. It sounds like you met with politicians and I see nothing encouraging here. Disappointing but not surprising. Thank you for your time and effort Aaron! Good bye!
    – gdoron
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 5:38
  • 34
    This feels positive, but it very strongly reminds me of how management spoke at my former company which has since blown up in a very public manner. What would convince me otherwise is if Prashanth followed-up your post here with concrete lists of actions that have already been taken demonstrating what they are doing to follow through on each of those major points and the rationale behind their actions. As they themselves state, "avoid being reactive" and "action over words." Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 6:32
  • 65
    Looks like lots of no comments and stonewalling. Also the ideas around inclusivity are too culture specific to be presented as being the majority point of view.
    – Frank
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 7:23
  • 55
    First, thank you very much for making this effort in our name! Second, please pass along our thanks to the SE staff for meeting with you. That being said, the problem remains that they can't or won't communicate with the community directly in any meaningful way. We should not be resorting to a proxy to do it in person. That's what we have the meta sites for. Finally, it's very noticeable that they kept the stonewalling and legal-speak on all core issues that led to this situation in the first place. These meeting notes are encouraging by their very existence rather than actual content.
    – Boaz
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 8:27
  • 32
    Also, are you going to post a version of this on MSE? I feel like a lot of this is relevant to the entire network. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:32
  • 57
    @DinoCoderSaurus: It's also a master class in wandering generalities, through no fault of Aaron's. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 15:36
  • 61
    This went pretty much as expected - it's pretty clear at this point what kind of organization SO has evolved into, probably for years. Volunteer contributors, take heed. What makes me sad is that they won't even grant the small mercy of putting Meta out of its misery. Oh well. Thank you Aaron for your time and impeccable organization and notekeeping - I'm sure I'm not alone in saying none of this negativity is directed at you!
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 19:05
  • 49
    No offense - sounds like the meeting was pointless. The answers are cold and condescending. Cannot wait for the next tool to be built!
    – JonH
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 14:01
  • 32
    While the summary is nice, and the bad answers give are out of your control, the conclusions you draw do not make sense. There is nothing given that would lead anyone to conclude that they care, as they avoided answering any of the important questions. You appear to have taken in by doublespeak, speech that appears to say something but really says nothing at all. Remember, how nice they make you feel is not indicative of whether their actions will be good.
    – trlkly
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 9:20

45 Answers 45

1
2
15

First of all, thank you for doing this. The format and approach are genuine and I think everyone sees that.

That being said, I just want to add that the responses are pretty much exactly what I'd expect to hear from any town hall meeting at any of the companies in San Francisco that I worked at or visited. Promises instead of action, pandering to the absolute lowest common denominator or to the violently-vocal minority, etc.

Further, hiding behind lawyers is plainly cowardice.

You tried, and we thank you for that - but this changes nothing, sadly :(

14

First off all, thank you Aaron for sticking your head out for all of us. I think you truly did a splendid job. And thanks to Ben Popper, Sara Chipps, and Prashanth Chandrasekar for stepping up and meeting with Aaron as a team, rather than doing a hasty 1 on 1 meeting, it seems you all took your time to talk things through thoroughly. I think that it makes a good point of showing you actually care.

Although admittedly I still have a fair deal of skepticism about the future, I also realize change takes time, and that a positive change tends to take longer than a negative change (which we have seen quite a few of lately). But I do think they answered honestly and are still motivated to make the network a better place for everyone.

  • CEO will commit to continue posting on meta at least quarterly.

I'm looking forward to reading posts from the CEO and hope these kind of posts focus on "Explaining the why" and transparency. Even just having the CEO stop by a (meta) thread and commenting/answering something every now and then goes a long way to show involvement.

2
  • 12
    Even just having the CEO stop by a (meta) thread and commenting/answering something every now and then goes a long way to show involvement. -- It's a good start, but it's going to take more than just a visit and reassurance from the CEO to fix things. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:16
  • 2
    @RobertHarvey I think a good start is the best we should be aiming for. There's no immediate/short-term thing the CEO or company can do to fix every concern the community has, so I don't want them to try. I want them to take their time and do things right.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 14:21
14

I've been following the story as it has been unfolding for the last few months. The core community team is now gone or at least mostly, either by being dismissed or by resignation due to controversial dismissals.

Although, the message from the new CEO, Mr Prashanth Chandrasekar, is welcoming and reach a hand to everyone that still involved with Stack Overflow, there are still gaps from communications to day to day operations.

The only thing we can be certain so far is that is that SO, the corporate company, want/need changes in order to make SO financially viable, either to turn it into something bigger (Google/NBC/Other tech giants) or sell it at the right time to a bigger player.

How to turn these objectives into volunteer work?

Well, that's kind of tricky as often these objectives are contradictory.

I would ask the following to SO corp since Aaron's meeting:

  • What are you proposing in order to mend , build the community and amend the technical issues the people who are involved in this site, raised? I maybe wrong and correct me if it is the case, but I don't see anything currently. I'm not sure that everyone who has been involved are willing to help as their efforts have been "ditched".

  • How we can be certain that the feeling of lack of direction won't turn into future and further dismissals when misunderstanding of changes on matters like code of conduct will happen?

I'm not sure of where SO is going and I hope that, things will get better and that you will be able to propose solutions.

Without wanting to bring bad omens, many companies, which were top notches with loyal followers are now gone when they started to rip apart the people who were representing the company (thinking about that one, in particular).

13

Aaron, thank you for putting in so much work to open clear communication between SE and the community. I'm sorry that they did not reciprocate, beyond telling you the same things in person that they've told (or shown) us on the site, but I really appreciate your effort.

Somehow, and I can't quite explain why, this feels like the event with the most finality to it.

12

Thanks Aaron.

I'm not too worried by the message in other answers; "not enough substance". The answer tells me that Prashanth Chandraseka isn't locked in to his employees' view on the community, but also is willing to look for himself. It would be bad for a CEO to start out by distrusting his employees straight away, so I can understand why he for now continues with the course they set out.

It's also good that I see a promise to return to Meta in 3 months. I'll reserve my judgement until that time. But I know that some employees hold an explicitly toxic view of the Community, and I expect the CEO to choose between these employees and the Community.

5
  • 25
    Shog and Robert definitely didn't hold a toxic view of the community, and we see the choice that was made... =(
    – nitsua60
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 12:56
  • 6
    @nitsua60: I intentionally wrote "some employees", e.g. those that slandered Monica in the media.
    – MSalters
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 12:58
  • 21
    @MSalters given that the toxic employee was part of the meeting, and several known non-toxic employees were fired recently, it's quite clear that your expectation is pretty far from reality.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 15:42
  • 8
    It would be great if, three months from now, the CEO doesn't use his return to meta to act as "cheerleader in chief" and tell us how great things are, how much things have improved, and how much better things will be going forward. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:01
  • 3
    If the company held those employees' views to be toxic, they would no longer be employees. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:34
9

Thank you Aaron.

I'll just note that "Can not simply reinstate Monica even though the community wants us to, for legal reasons" translates to "lawyer ideas is more important to us than the community". Sad.

4
  • 3
    Well, it kinda is that way. The community is not above the law. Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 17:08
  • But yes, reinstating her wouldn’t have had anything to do with the lawsuit, and it would have simply been possible for SE to say “yep, you’re a moderator again” or “nope, you’re not being reinstated” instead of hiding the response behind that new process — both of which are points that have been reiterated several times; but it’s over now, Monica has left SE. Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 17:18
  • 9
    The community is not above The Law as determined by legislative bodies etc. A settlement negotiated by a couple of lawyers however.. is not The Law. It is sad that the community's feedback and emotions was valued less than that piece of paper. I know she has left, it's tragic.
    – hallvors
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 20:12
  • 1
    I doubt lawyers have much power at SE: they didn't even have someone in their top management responsible for legal! meta.stackexchange.com/a/343033/248268 But a good lawyer would have prevented the repeat debacles with ToS changes.
    – Nemo
    Commented Feb 8, 2020 at 7:44
9

Reading some of the answers here it's clear that some people will never be happy with SO again. Due to the legal situation their key demand, that certain people be reinstated, can't be met. Anything that subverts process will create more legal difficulties.

SO has no choice but to move forward as best it can. Maybe those people will eventually leave, but they haven't so far so SO is in an impossible situation.

The site is also reaching saturation, much like Wikipedia did. Most stuff is answered now, and question quality is declining for the same reason that Wikipedia edits are. Without some new direction and a renewed community it's just going to continue to stagnate and decline.

I don't know if SO can fix this but they seem to be aware of it at least.

6

I'm very late to this party. But just because Prashanth was friendly and smiling, it doesn't mean something productive was happening in that meeting. Reading between the slogans and platitudes, I'm reminded of an insightful dictionary definition:

Diplomacy [noun]: the art of saying "nice doggie" until you can find a rock.

After many missteps and unexpected events over several years, including most recently the forced departure of Josh/Robert/Monica, it's abundantly clear that the SO community of managers, moderators, and power users feels betrayed.

Given that betrayal is poison not just for the present, but for the past and the future too, it's equally clear from the post above that SO management feels it's much easier to "renew" (nice euphemism) that community than to recover the broken trust.

So our choices as members of that community are simple: either stay and acquiesce/fight, or leave.

STAY

As intelligent tech geeks, albeit with a vast arsenal of weaponized personality disorders, many of us have found that a satisfying way to deal with help vampires is to taste terrible. Whether that's in the form of downvoting questions, abrupt comments, outright snarkiness, or just condescension.

That approach clearly isn't acceptable in the new world, and may not work anyway. So a better response could be to simply ignore the help vampires - don't answer their questions and don't downvote them. If nobody answers those questions, those help vampires will mostly go away. If repfarmers answer their questions and become embedded in the sticky web, then we'll end up with two (unfortunately conjoined) Q&A libraries: canonical Q&A on one side, homework/code dumps on the other. That may not be the worst of all outcomes.

Indeed it may be that completely ignoring terrible first questions is the best way of deterring people from returning. In which case you might very well think that's the best way to subvert SO's new mission of enlarging its user base at any cost. I couldn't possibly comment.

LEAVE

Go make some stuff!

5
  • 1
    This was a really great post and so I feel obliged to comment, but I have nothing particularly insightful or interesting to add. However, I doubt the legitimacy of that "dictionary".
    – Michael
    Commented Feb 11, 2020 at 17:31
  • 1
    It's the Devil's Dictionary by Ambrose Bierce.
    – HTTP 410
    Commented Feb 12, 2020 at 19:24
  • 5
    No, that quote does not belong Bierce. His definition is quite different: "DIPLOMACY, n. The patriotic art of lying for one's country". Source.
    – yivi
    Commented Feb 13, 2020 at 20:31
  • 2
    @yivi, I stand corrected. It was probably Walter Trumbull.
    – HTTP 410
    Commented Feb 14, 2020 at 15:22
  • 1
    Everyone go help out at Codidact. SE is dead.
    – user428517
    Commented Feb 18, 2020 at 21:42
5

I think this development is counterproductive and unfruitful in any case.

For one, the responses all seem to be 'no comment' type rebuffs. Secondly, it is incorrect to assume the majority want 'inclusivity'. I for one am fundamentally opposed to the notion of 'inclusivity' espoused in this culture bubble around the CEOs locality, and as part of a global audience I would say my view is more representative of the majority.

12
  • 10
    Everyone wants to feel included, but not everyone cares about being inclusive. A paradox! What do you do?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 20:27
  • 2
    @CodyGray Most I think prefer to be left out of most things. Wish I was totally ignored by the taxman for example.
    – Frank
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 20:55
  • 9
    @CodyGray: I've stated before the actual impossibility of having an all-inclusive society. There is no paradox, there's only a pipe dream.
    – Joshua
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 3:29
  • 2
    @CodyGray your comment is off topic however. The point is that Aaron claims that 'everyone' wants inclusivity in his representation of the SO community, when in probable fact it would be a minority.
    – Frank
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 5:43
  • 4
    See "I'm going to apologize up front to the individuals in the community. I may have missed an issue that is important to you. I may have mis-, over- or under-stated your case. I want you to know that I did my best to reflect the sense I can gather of the matters that I felt were most important to you." That you personally prefer an exclusionary society isn't particularly relevant, either. You present no evidence for your claim that only a minority of people desire inclusiveness.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 5:55
  • 1
    @CodyGray Now you are making logical fallacies. The fad of 'inclusivity' these days rails against non existent exclusionary behaviour. I am opposed to 'inclusivity' but I do not believe society is exclusionary either. Studies prove it. Equal opportunity not equal outcome. Just because most nurses are women we shouldn't assume this is because the industry is dominated by a matriarchy. As for most people being unsupportive of 'inclusivity' that is an obvious truth as this fad is largely a subculture of North America and SO has a global audience
    – Frank
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 6:40
  • 3
    Frank, if you saw some of the comments and posts that I do, in the course of moderating Stack Overflow, you would not be able to make claims about "non-existent exclusionary behavior". It certainly exists, and I believe it should be a cause for concern for any civilized person. Now, this over-emphasis on "welcoming" is also something I find exhausting. And of course I agree that equal opportunity is not equal outcome, and that we shouldn't ignore facts. But being nice to people and avoiding creation of systemic barriers is not something I have an issue with, fads aside.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 19:25
  • 1
    @CodyGray Well that's fair enough, but I don't think this 'Inclusivity' movement happening today is in the same spirit as your fairly balanced comment.
    – Frank
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 19:32
  • 1
    @CodyGray your first comment is reductio ad absurdum - you grossly oversimplify the problem people have with SO's version of "inclusivity". Feeling included and inclusivity are mutually antonymous in modern social culture, the latter more akin to diversity initiatives. Your condescending tone isn't what I'd consider acceptable from a CM. Commented Feb 12, 2020 at 10:34
  • This is not how I understand inclusivity, @Qix, and I don't think it's at all fair to project other political baggage onto me or anyone else's use of the term here. I fundamentally do not accept that inclusivity is mutually exclusive with feeling included. I also don't know what it is about my tone that you find "condescending". It wasn't meant to be that way.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 12, 2020 at 18:37
  • Does anyone else include 100% of the people you're arguing with in this answer's comments section? What about the hundreds of users decrying the CoC changes? Is your head in the sand? Commented Feb 12, 2020 at 20:42
  • 2
    Yes, ' inclusivity' in (at least) the CoC context is about a minority ramming its own ideas on how people should think and talk onto a larger group of people, in a cold attempt at abusing the SE platform to further propagate its own dogma to a wider audience. It is propaganda by hijacking SE. It has zero to do with feeling included and is in fact the opposite.
    – Frank
    Commented Feb 13, 2020 at 7:24
5

I had some doubts about the real meaning of the answers provided to Aaron by SE management but these doubts have been excellently discussed in the top answers and the following comments — but one

Helping write the script of the future by serving developers and technical workers.

My doubt is, who are those technical workers? how do they differ from developers? do they deserve a different treatment wrt developers?

5
  • 5
    I guess technical workers is a broader term. One can be a DevOps Engineer, a SysOp, a hardware technician, an architect, a mechanic (e.g. autonomous vehicles), etc. without actually performing a developer's role.
    – CPHPython
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 11:51
  • 4
    @CPHPython And people not even in IT - who need (or want) to write a "little something" to make their lives easier. For example, automate Excel for a repetitive task. Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 21:12
  • @CindyMeister But those people are not technical workers, at the very least they need help with the script of the day and not "Helping write the script of the future"...
    – gboffi
    Commented Feb 8, 2020 at 12:01
  • @CPHPython Some time ago I found this in a comment "Anyone actually writing code has to type full, clear, correctly spelled lines of text very frequently, so my expectation that you should write your question in a similar way is not unreasonable". I wonder if I'll have to lower my expectations wrt questions if the site is serving both developers and technical workers.
    – gboffi
    Commented Feb 8, 2020 at 12:07
  • @gboffi I wouldn't go so far to lower your expectations: too many developers questions in SO already are hard enough to understand due to poor phrasing, code indentation, and syntax errors resulting from adjusting copy+pasted code from somewhere else... Also, tech workers may focus more on non-coding questions (e.g. algorithms, dev tools, IDEs and OS related), which per SO's Start Tour are allowed.
    – CPHPython
    Commented Feb 10, 2020 at 10:58
3

Authentic voice of the company: action over words.

Let's hope this is actually the case and not just more talk.

1
  • 3
    We don't know. There is not much value is saying that one puts action over words. Anyway, the future will tell exactly, what was the case. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:49
-3

Legal settlement prevents discussion

This may be standard for these kinds of settlements, but it's still a huge strategic mistake, and it still can and should be corrected. SO could seek an amended settlement that allows them to unconditionally apologize and at least symbolically unconditionally reinstate Monica. Even now, the cost of doing this will be less than the cost of not doing it.

15
  • 18
    I'mma need you to drop this one, for similar reasons I outline here. Being upset at the result of the settlement does not give you the privilege to demand that it be overturned. I'm fairly confident that this point came up during arbitration, and, well, it didn't work out that way. Additionally - Stack Exchange sets the rules for how moderators can come back. Even if it was papered over.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:33
  • 8
    @Makoto I'm not "demanding" anything. I'm making a prediction about the outcomes of different options that are, in fact, still on the table. Legal settlements can be amended. It may be expensive to pay the lawyers to go through the whole process again, but that has to be weighed against the cost of not doing it. My prediction is that not doing it will be fatal to the brand. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:45
  • 12
    My gut reaction anymore to anyone asking that Monica be reinstated or that this be revisited is honestly to view it akin to a child not getting their way. I realize that's a horribly brutal way to phrase it and a horribly myopic view of it, but the reality is that no amount of pondering, what-ifing, or supposition will change what happened. You could hope that they do something different, but the very stark reality is that they won't and you'll be left to face facts on the matter. So, I'd rather you face those facts now while you've still got a chance before you get burned.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:47
  • 10
    @Makoto Perhaps they won't, but not because they can't. They absolutely can, and their choice not to -- not choices made in the past -- is what will ultimately doom the company. Stubbornly refusing to revisit this is what's really childish and myopic. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:49
  • 4
    It doesn't really prevent discussion from our side at least. That's why it also costs them reputation to the day. The apology in December was rather halfhearted and could have been more. But they seemed to prefer it that way. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:52
  • @Trilarion: I dunno. I don't see much left to discuss, really. At least on Meta. Maybe in other chats, but not much here, really.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:56
  • 6
    "to view it akin to a child not getting their way" Then stop engaging with it, @Makoto. Your tone on this subject is over the top: "I'mma need you to drop this one"?? "privilege to demand"??
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 0:59
  • 7
    @jscs: Every single time interactions with the community and discussions about the whole situation come up, umbrage with the settlement comes up. I get it - folks aren't happy about it - but I for one would love to have a constructive discussion about some of the issues with Stack Overflow without having to rehash this specific thing.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 3:22
  • 2
    @Makoto: There is another way, but it's truly a lot harder. The firing of Monica is very near the heart of the problem. The pressure on religious positions is systematic and intentional and needs to be reversed.
    – Joshua
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 3:49
  • 1
    Demanding Monica be reinstated is just not productive, we don't even know if she wants that. In her position, I'd probably want to be as far away from SO as possible.
    – DavidG
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 10:53
  • 3
    @DavidG We don't know because she's not allowed to talk about it. That's part of the problem. In any case, it's not even really about Monica. It's about SE's failure to sincerely apologize for their treatment of anyone and everyone. If their lawyers are telling them not to apologize, it would be strategically wise to fire their lawyers. Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 16:48
  • 1
    Well, that's my point - we don't know, so demanding anything is counterproductive. As for apologies, demanding them is also not useful, they're meaningless and serve zero purpose without actions to back them up. I say forget about apologies, lets see some actual tangible things.
    – DavidG
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 16:51
  • 1
    @DavidG It's too late for them to reinstate Monica: she has decided to leave the network. Please see meta.stackexchange.com/a/342950/334566
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 18:54
  • 2
    @PM2Ring Well that just reinforces my point about the repeated demands for her reinstatement.
    – DavidG
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 18:58
  • 2
    Monica was far the most important SE mod. I suspect, her firing might have been a precaution for the public outcry, if the company would sell or close the SE network.
    – peterh
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 0:15
-4

When they saw what I had prepared, and that I intended to make a full report back to the community, they wanted to extend our time together to immediately address each issue.

I felt that they were engaged on each of the concerns I raised.

This indicates they were surprised by Aaron's work (thank you Aaron) and saw an opportunity to address major pending issues, which they took immediately.

Despite more sensitive issues not being reported in depth, this indicates to me their priorities are on the right path: solving existing issues and improving the company-community's relationship as best as they are able to.

7
  • 14
    Ehm, I'm not convinced. By their own admission, deeds are more important than words. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 16:47
  • 18
    The cynical take would be that they went into damage prevention mode. Not saying I see it as such necessarily… 🙃
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 16:54
  • @deceze in damage prevention mode, damage prevents you from damaging further (not a Russian pun... 🙃) and thus the talk would have been shortened instead of extended (less interaction time => less damage).
    – CPHPython
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:12
  • 7
    @CPHPython I think it would’ve been more damaging for Aaron to come back from this meeting essentially reporting “they hadn’t much to say”…
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:18
  • 1
    @deceze answers here point several subjects that were not addressed in detail (or at all). Greater exposure leads to greater vulnerabilities and if their focus was indeed to minimize damage, they would have logically reduced exposure time. However, they voluntarily and immediately agreed to extend it.
    – CPHPython
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 18:54
  • 1
    I would not read too much into it, but it can also be seen differently. They were surprised by how much high quality work the Meta community can deliver (via Aaron) in such a short time and maybe it dawned on them what colossal mistake it has been to ditch Meta. Or they may still be on the wrong path. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:07
  • 3
    It actually tells me the opposite: that they're on the wrong path. The minute the CEO agreed to meet with Aaron and set in motion the events necessary to have them meet in person at the company's HQ, the people meeting with him should have set aside adequate time and done adequate preparation of their own to meet each question with an appropriate response. That they were caught so off-guard smacks of either ineptitude or an intent to shrug off whatever concerns were about to be aired.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 16:56
-8

Perhaps a statement of the obvious, but in retrospect it seems in the best interest of everyone to avoid initiating a legal battle if at all possible, because a legal settlement means that no one is allowed to discuss what happened after the legal settlement occurs. And not being able to discuss it means that no one can understand or truly learn from the situation later.

-37

I am an unwelcomed user of the site. I am not a new user long ago, but I could not ever forget, what I've got at the start.

My opinion is, what now Prasanth said, is no more than it was communicated already. This time it was packaged better, much better, but the content is the same.

I felt unwelcomed from the beginning. Later I've learned, how to ensure my survival on the main site, but I was always very disliked on the meta. On this reason, I think I should support what the company is doing now. My only problem is now that they are doing it on bad and evil ways.

You, dear meta community, made a site which is ruled and governed by an "inner circle", so as it happens always to the internet communities in general. It is not your induvidual fault, it is a well-known phenomenon, everybody knows so are things going on the Internet. Despite that, mentioning it resulted always a huge bunch of downs on the meta sites. (And a lot of revenge downs on the main.)

What made the SO unique, it that as the admin of a facebook group, or irc channel, you can block/ban anybody for anything. You are not interested in your stats financially. But as a reviewer/poweruser of the SO, the company will be sad, if you decrease their stats.

Honestly, the SE was always a site where we can get answers to our questions, and we can answer the questions of others. We can also tune our profile, or have other games, if we enjoy it. It won't change. Any more - your volunteer work - was your volunteer work, you donated it to the company community, and if you now feel disappointed, it is your problem. You can decide to not donate any more time/effort, but you can not get it back what you already did.

The stat of the new user registrations shows Prashanth has right - but only if the stat of the new questions will follow it. We will see in some months, how things are going.

I think, the company has right in that

  • the site was always very unwelcoming,
  • it was the main cause of the bad stats,
  • they need to make radical changes to fix them,
  • including a change in the community.

My opinion is roughly this since around 2015, I said it many, many, many times - far more times than you can see that in my early meta history. My opinion was mostly downvoted and moderated out. You can check my old meta SO activity history, if you wish to, and multiply it with 10.

You moderated it out, dear meta community.

I seriously disagreed Monica many times on the meta sites, but her firing was so ugly, that I could not do any different, than support her. I had never problem with Shog, he represented a stable point of the system. I always liked Cartaino, I think he is not here any more because he was too good-hearted for this company. I want them all back. This whole fixup does not require their leave.

I think now that the company is trying to go to the good direction, but they are doing it with bad and evil methods.

What is evil in the current deeds of the company:

  • Firings
  • No communication
  • "Big company" attitude, lawyer-speak

What is bad:

  • Somehow this whole "inclusivity" went into the direction of that gender-theory thing. My opinion is that instead of talking about personal pronouns, to look more inclusive for some % of users, the system should focus to the billions of people in China and India, whose youth is in a large part a beginner programmer today, and they tend to ask VLQ questions on the main site.
  • People asking bad questions - because they don't know, how to ask. They won't read hundred page long tutorials, and won't read thousands of questions in the meta archives. They don't even know that the meta site exists. They only ask, for example, why their Java doesn't work. They don't know that we can't debug their system from the internet. Instead of purging these people, they should get an intuitive and automatic tutor system, wizards, and responsive help.

Actually, this whole thing is not our problem. It is the site of the company, we can choose to take part here or not. To me, it is a recreational resource, where I could sometimes (rarely) get answers to my questions, and I could play an intellectual game to tune my network-wide profile. Doing these, I contributed some resources to a company totally unrelated to me, to increase its business stats.

Calculating the "value of the company" * "count of my posts in its sites" / "count of all posts", we get the value of the some thousands of $. In this sense, I can say, I made free work for them in the value of some thousands $. For a profit-oriented company on a different continent, with them I never had any relations and I won't ever. Well... I think I was far more generous than I should have to, but I don't regret it (anyways, it would be too late for that).

I don't regret it, because meanwhile also I've learned a lot here.

I suggest the same attitude to you, dear community members, do you like my posts or not. Be happy on what you've learned here, this is your gain.

2
  • A long, tedious discussion that was teetering on the border of attacks and unconstructive ranting has been moved to chat.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 14, 2020 at 19:23
  • If you have something to say, please do it on the chat, to avoid unneeded content loss. As far I know, even the mods can only once move comments into chat.
    – peterh
    Commented Feb 14, 2020 at 19:49
1
2

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .