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So I know this is a silly beehive to kick, but I think we should all think about this again. I've been active on Stack Overflow for a long time, answering many questions in what would commonly be called "DevOps" technologies. I would like to set aside for a moment our collective opinions on "DevOps" as a term and just talk about what it means for Stack Overflow.

What value is there in continuing to force users of DevOps-y tools onto other far less-populated sites? Why is a Docker configuration file a Server Fault question, but CSS is a Stack Overflow question? We have a hugely powerful tagging system here, and most people I know, who regularly interact with any large SE site, are already filtering down by tags when browsing, because they are huge melting pots.

Continuing to split the communities alienates new users, annoys both askers and answerers by forcing us into two poorly-integrated silos, and from my point of view adds nothing to either community.

Is it time to undo the arbitrary distinctions between the original founding sites and embrace a single, shared technical Q&A community?

PS: I wrote more words about this a while ago on https://coderanger.net/stackoverflow/ if you want further explanations of why this is important to me.

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  • 1
    I guess DevOps questions aren't off-topic on SO, until they not fill better on SF.
    – TGrif
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 2:28
  • 10
    Let’s just make DevOps off-topic for Stack Overflow, since it’s not actually programming anyway. Then, Server Fault retains its purpose, and Stack Overflow retains its focus.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 2:29
  • What benefit does that provide?
    – coderanger
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 2:30
  • 10
    See the last sentence. The whole point of splitting sites by topic is to create a focused, expert community. I argued about it when it started to splinter, asking, e.g., what the purpose of a Unix/Linux site was, when we already had Super User, but everyone told me that I was crazy. So as long as that’s the order of the day, Kubernetes configuration questions are not programming questions, and thus do not belong on Stack Overflow, whose exclusive charter is software development questions. Neither do HTTP server configuration questions, or Windows configuration questions. A theme emerges.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 2:42
  • 4
    Except that is not what has happened. The traffic to SO is waaaaay higher than anything else. This is where the people are, trying to push them elsewhere feels at best unproductive. We already have tags to help divvy up the community by topics and areas of expertise, otherwise why does it make any more sense to put C++ and CSS in the same Q&A site (compared to Kubernetes Go API questions vs. CLI questions which are generally very similar in terms of audience)?
    – coderanger
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 2:45
  • 8
    Should we also allow physics, cooking, and philosophy questions on Stack Overflow? There are sites for each of those topics, too, and as you mentioned, they are far smaller than Stack Overflow.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 3:11
  • 1
    That is a false dichotomy, the specific case of the already fuzzy boundary between “programming” and “operations” becoming literally nonexistent is different from saying every audience is the same. While I’m sure some questions exist in the world that span tech and physics (as an example) the volume is not nearly the same as those that span dev and ops. My feelings on the term “DevOps” aside, it shows just how interlinked these communities are now, there is no clean dividing line and trying to force one only hurts the community.
    – coderanger
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 3:19
  • 5
    It sounds like you would be very surprised by the number of cooking and relationship questions we get asked on Stack Overflow. At any rate, I don’t see the boundary between network infrastructure questions and programming questions as being a “fuzzy” one. Programming languages are a pretty well-defined group. Docker isn’t a programming language by any stretch of the imagination, just like VirtualBox and VMWare aren’t programming languages.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 4:47
  • 1
    @Cody Gray: How is infrastructure as code not programming related? That is the direction DevOps is moving in. It can be declarative and/or imperative. It can e.g. involve a very large number of lines of code in PowerShell. Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 4:55
  • Is CSS a programming language? Is HTML? I think Nginx config files are turing complete, how about those? Dockerfiles involve shell scripts, what percentage makes it programming? At some point it’s all just ways to make the machines do what we want. And if the goal is segregation of the communities, what value does that bring in and of itself? Is it easier for me to read questions on ServerFault than SO? Once a site has gone past the point that no one human can possibly be an expert in even a reasonable fraction of the topics on it, what value does splitting things up bring us?
    – coderanger
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 4:57
  • 4
    If it involves code, @Peter, it’s on-topic. If it’s about configuring your server or environment, it’s not.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 6:25
  • 1
    Unless the moderation culture at serverfault has massively mellowed out, sending most devops questions their way would end badly because they emphatically didn't want the more basic sort of questions that devs trying to do sysadmin work regularly end up asking. Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 6:26
  • did you ask at SF meta whether they would want this?
    – gnat
    Commented Dec 2, 2019 at 9:21
  • How exactly is this question programming-related: serverfault.com/q/994181/1499 ? Commented Dec 5, 2019 at 8:35
  • @JörgWMittag Imagine if we had a Blue Q&A site and a Yellow Q&A site. And then thousands of people showed up asking Green questions. That doesn't mean Blue and Yellow don't exist, but it does mean that trying divide things by "primary color" is no longer an effective strategy.
    – coderanger
    Commented Dec 5, 2019 at 18:09

1 Answer 1

2

You know what they say: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

While I can understand the logic behind your suggestion, I am not convinced that it would be a positive change. Server Fault has built up a community around a particular area, and it seems to be working reasonably well. Trying to merge the two sites risks breaking something that is already working. It'd be risky.

A Stack Exchange site is defined not only by the list of topics that are on-topic there, but also by the community. So, it's not enough to solely discuss the topics from a technical perspective (e.g., are Docker configuration files a programming language?) and try to use that to justify a change; you also need to consider the community of folks who have laboriously built up Server Fault's site and culture, and whether they would be well served by such a merger, and whether the community of folks on SO would be well served by such a change. In other words, it is not quite so simple as you have made it out to be.

Keep in mind that there is also some history and inertia here. A change of this magnitude is not something one makes lightly; there would be have to be a tremendous anticipated benefit, to be worth the costs and downside risks.

In any case, this doesn't seem ripe for the SO community to vote on. Server Fault's community would need to agree, so if you seriously want to advocate for such a proposal, I'd suggest you to start on Meta.Serverfault.SE, not on Meta.SO.

3
  • I think "ain't broke" needs to be tempered by the number of people that are scared or frustrated away from one of both sites by the current moderation practices. We've spent a lot of time recently trying to collectively come to grips how many people have issues like that, and I think survivor bias especially among long-time users is pushing us towards a status quo that does more harm than good.
    – coderanger
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 16:21
  • 1
    @coderanger, Perhaps you can use that perspective to help you articulate the major benefit you would anticipate from merging such sites, and why that benefit cannot be achieved in any other way; and then use that to strengthen the rationale for your proposal. It's not clear to me how moderation practices is related to merging sites; they seem separable to me.
    – D.W.
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 17:28
  • Mod policies and site silo-ing are definitely separable, but they are also intertwined. The benefit is getting more of the ops community to be involved in here again. Most of my friends think I'm a weirdo for still taking SO seriously as a place for devops outreach, they have long since given up helping here due to toxicity and a continual game of "you asked the wrong way/place/style". I don't see any other way to have a unified technical community other than to acknowledge and adapt to the fact that "programming" is no longer a simple thing to draw a boundary around.
    – coderanger
    Commented Dec 1, 2019 at 19:13

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