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Some time ago I was approached by a moderator for a perfectly valid reason, but the way it was done left me rather bewildered. Up to this day I have no idea what to make of it and whether it's possible to make such encounters more productive. So I decided to ask.

I don't know whether it's forbidden to publish moderators' mail, so I will make the quoting as short as possible.

Let me introduce myself first. I spend a lot of time trying to make Stack Overflow and PHP community a better place. I take pride in writing answers like this and articles like this, trying to divert the tide of bad practices that floods the Stack Overflow and PHP ecosystem in general.

  • I am trying to write answers that would be not only helpful for the particular person who asked, but for everyone who would stumble upon such a problem in the future (it is not as obvious as it seems; most answers turn to be too localized).
  • I am trying to write answers that are looking one move forward and offer some ways to solve a problem, not just acknowledge it.
  • I am trying to write answers that ensure that no another problem will be introduced while solving the initial issue (to be honest, the way questions are usually answered is a real plague in this regard. For example, almost every answer regarding the SQL syntax issue introduces an SQL injection, and so on).

My comments are usually helpful as well, though sometimes I am not willing to go into much detail explaining why some suggestion from a random passer by makes absolutely no sense to say the least.

This is what I usually do on Stack Overflow. Nobody ever contacted me in regard of this devoted service. Of course it is not that I am asking for it. Just for a comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to praise myself. I only want to explain that I don't sit all day round on Stack Overflow harassing people and writing useless comments.

Of course I am not a saint. Sometimes I am getting drawn up into an unnecessary conversation. It seldom happens, but we all have bad days (especially given the overall quality of an average contribution, be it a question, or an answer or a comment - man, it takes a lot of gut to stand all that muddy stream). I acknowledge this problem's existence and would gladly accept any help in this regard.

And then I get this modmail that basically asked me to be "extremely careful with my comments" and intimated that moderators are "discussing a year-long ban" if I won't improve. Boy, it was a shock.

I do believe that such an approach is not helpful for two reasons

  • general overreaction and hostility. A year-long ban for a few chatty comments? Seriously?
  • general "unhelpfulness". Seriously, how one is supposed to learn about their mistakes from a suggestion like this: "comments that didn't provide any clear guidance, didn't move the conversation forward and didn't help the poster in any way". Such a phrasing is so overly-polite and circuitous that one hardly can make any use of it. Am I supposed to scrutinize my recent comments to see what did I done wrong? That's quite a tedious task, especially given that comments in question are likely got deleted.

What I would suggest is to make moderator mails less formal. For example, adding examples of one's misbehavior would help a lot. I know sometimes it's hard to find a good example that is not in the grey zone and thus could be contested and moderators are not willing to be drawn into an argument, but still. Show me where I slipped up. Give me a hand.

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    Ironically... isn't the comments you get chastised for exactly lacking in that same "actionable" fix? They seem to tell you not to be unclear and unspecific in an.... unclear and unspecific way :/
    – Patrice
    Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 15:57
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    @Patrice such comments account for may be 5% of my overall activity. Such moderatorials account for 100% of mod mail. Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 15:58
  • 17
    If you don't know what they're telling you to correct, then the message clearly hasn't done its job.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 16:02
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    To be fair, 5% of your overall activity is a lot, considering how much activity you have. That's almost a thousand comments (986.9 comments out of your 19738 undeleted comments) that might be problematic in some way. It's hard to consider how to respond without knowing the contents of the comments... are you able to share some of the comments that prompted the mod mail in question?
    – TylerH
    Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 16:03
  • 8
    It is a different time now. Comments that would have been acceptable in the past are no longer welcome, in order to promote inclusivity. The bar for deletion of such comments is set very low. Apparently you missed the "Welcome Wagon."
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 16:03
  • 3
    Is it possible to reply to such a modmail and to start kind of a dialogue or is it a one-way note? Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 16:10
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    There are no prohibitions against you sharing mod messages, and we would be obliged to post the deleted comments, but do you really want that?
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 16:18
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    @GeorgeStocker: That would be the only reasonable way to get a read.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 16:20
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    @GeorgeStocker I suppose it will give me a hard time but yes, this is what I want. A lesson. Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 17:15
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    @Trilarion: modmails work on an once-only reply. So, you have the right to reply after a message, and then you can no longer add anything until another mod message has been received. I can see why it might work like this - a disgruntled user could fill up a mod inbox very quickly.
    – halfer
    Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 21:02
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    What is a "moderatorial"? Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 23:17
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    Ultimately a line must be drawn between acceptable and unacceptable comments. The position of that line has been changed. Now subtle rudeness, such as snark, is unacceptable. Consequently I comment much less, but much more ruthlessly downvote and vote to close. Without commenting on my votes.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 6:06
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    Be careful - I got a year ban for describing 'i=i++ + ++i' as 'Trash code' which, though it obviously is, must not be described as such:( Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 9:43
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    I've known you (as a user, not personally) for a few years now. My general sentiment of you is that you are frustrated by the PHP community and the way people enter it and work in it, and you don't hide that well. Not on main, and definitely not on Meta. Yes, generally speaking they're a bunch of amateurs who don't have a high regard of the profession of software engineering, but hey, that's life. I know frustration, and it's not easy to let it not get the better of you. But sorry, I'm on the mods' side on this one. Don't lash out to people who don't know better and don't want to improve.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 9:19
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    @MartinJames The preferred gender pronoun of trash code is undefined behaviour, didn't you know? Commented Oct 3, 2019 at 16:54

5 Answers 5

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The messages need to be tweaked. The last time we updated them was when I started, and that was almost 8 years ago.

In your particular case, at least from what I can tell, you want a moderator to step entirely out of the templates we provide and just speak to you casually. That's entirely up to the moderator, but I have some suggestions:

  • Let them know as the very first thing that you're taking the message seriously and want to interact in a way that avoids conflict. Specifically say that you're not trying to just interpret rules in a way that reflects more favorably on what they contacted you about.

  • Be specific, let them know that the high-level language in the template isn't helping you understand. Ask for an example like "I said this sentence, which triggered this, how could I have phrased it differently?"

Most moderators will be more than willing to coach a bit if you show a good-faith effort. We would too, if you contacted us regarding the message. Just be really clear that you're not appealing the message, you just need help digesting and internalizing it into something you can actually do and understand more.

But yeah, those messages, they're getting pretty dusty, and moderators are dealing with much more nuanced stuff that a lighter, more specific touch would help with.

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  • "Most moderators will be more than willing to coach a bit if you show a good-faith effort." Indeed, the theory of moderation states that mods should use a soft, guiding touch to help correct action rather than punish as a first measure.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 3, 2019 at 15:51
  • that's why suspension is optional when a moderator contacts an user. And messages can also be edited to customize them. Add details, remove some noise from the template... We can also start from scratch with a very minimal template. Commented Oct 3, 2019 at 19:36
23

Looking through your comments, I immediately see many that are (AFAICJ)

  • patronizing/condescending, or
  • tutoring or giving learning advice.

(since I wrote this, most such comments have vanished from the list. Which kind of confirms my suspicion)

Both are problematic for SO:

  • The first ones are probably the ones that landed you the hard warning. No-one likes being treated like a child or an idiot (regardless of whether this was your intention), and however justified the phrasing is, the attitude doesn't really help or motivate anyone.
  • Tutoring is off topic at SO and its Q&A format is not fit for it. The site is designed to produce readily found and reusable knowledge applicable to anyone -- while tutoring and personal advice are by definition personalized and with information hidden within the conversation. So while not actively harmful, for the purpose of the site, such comments are generally noise.

Now, how justified my above judgement is and what you do about that is ultimately your decision. But I can tell you what has worked for myself:

  • A way to fix the first one is to stick to the facts and omit opinions, Wikipedia-style (cf. Graham's pyramid). E.g. say what exacty is wrong and why and how to do that right (and/or give relevant links).

  • A way to optimize(?) the second one is to stick to the SO model:

    • SO is one-concern-per-question. This is what makes a question useful to future readers -- thus worthy of being kept around. A combination of several concerns is typically too unique to be of use for others.
      • Thus an answer must focus on addressing that concern. Any other concerns could be mentioned but only as side notes and only if that's necessary for the aforementioned goal (and should be presented appropriately so as not to steal the spotlight).
        • E.g. if there are other critical problems in OP's code that must be addressed for the solution to their main problem to really work, you can mention this and link to relevant questions. If those are not critical, mentioning them is only worth it if they are related to the main one -- otherwise, that would not add value from SO model's standpoint.
    • The primary goal of comments is to aid in answering the question. They are second-class citizens.
    • For recurring problems, the best way the community has found is to make canonical questions and refer to them.
    • Should we be teaching people to think for themselves? mentions some other ways that people (including myself) use to educate askers in a cost-efficient way.
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  • 1
    As far as tutoring goes, whatever happened to that mentorship program?
    – canon
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 15:16
  • 2
    @canon it completed
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 15:16
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    A very interesting stuff. May I ask for some links that support the second case? It's mind blowing to say the least. Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 19:30
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    Tutoring seems to be the new goal of SO the Company, now that Welcomening has been achieved.
    – user3458
    Commented Oct 3, 2019 at 14:43
  • @YourCommonSense which exact item do you mean by "the second case"? Commented Oct 4, 2019 at 0:55
  • Showing a better way in comments that is not directly related to the question Commented Oct 4, 2019 at 5:13
  • @YourCommonSense Starting from meta.stackexchange.com/questions/19756/how-do-comments-work, to the results of googling "stackoverflow what comments are for site:meta.stackexchange.com OR meta.stackoverflow.com", to the fact that people land on question pages by the question's keywords and comments aren't prominent at all. Commented Oct 5, 2019 at 4:31
4

There is a lot I can't say due to our policy to treat moderator actions as private communications and to focus on the behavior at hand. There are two things I will say:

  • Do you really want moderators to respond to this question with a point-by-point refutation? That may not be your objective, but by framing events in this manner you're forcing our hand in that direction
  • If anything isn't abundantly clear about what has transpired, feel free to reach out via reply to a moderator message

There is no prohibition against you sharing what was said in a moderator message.

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    I see what you mean. Well, If you feel that my description isn't fair or factually correct (as there was two parts in the mod mail for example), feel free to give that refutation. It will open that "can of worms" of interpretations but at least I will see what you meant and not what I felt reading. Regarding the reply via the mod mail, I wasted that only shot on a rant similar to this that didn't ask any questions (I am under the impression that mods aren't allowed to disclose any information related to flags raised so it didn't occur to me I can ask). Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 17:50
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    "There is no prohibition against you sharing what was said in a moderator message". Proven by regexformat.com (direct link: regexformat.com/slngone.htm) Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 21:16
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    "Do you really want moderators to respond to this question with a point-by-point refutation?" It looks like it is his objective, judging by the comment. Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 8:30
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    Oh, c'mon. I upvoted this because I approved thoroughly of the protocol seemingly being followed - check first with the aggrieved user whether they're okay with you revealing private information needed to address the question properly, then do so. But now it seems, per your comments under meta.stackoverflow.com/a/389956/1709587, that you don't actually have any intention of sharing anything (and are happy to insult the user and accuse them of asking in bad faith to justify not doing so), even though YCS has now asked you to do so.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 16:57
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    @mark there’s a lot of history there. I’m trying to figure out a way of sharing it without it coming across as dunking.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 16:58
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    @GeorgeStocker Ah, very good then. Sorry for reading too much into your comments below. (And yes, I'm aware YCS has some, uh, history.)
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 17:00
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One thing I would want is a message saying kind of "a moderator deleted your comment blablabla".

Nothing more or less.
There is no need for moderators name or reason or even a link to the comment.

That is enough as a "warning" to not have to get to the email step.

Had OP received 100 of those messages I bet it would not have gone this far.

With message I mean a private moderator message such as the red inbox thing at the top. Not an email.

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    yeah, being automatically warned when a flagged comment is deleted would help commenter to improve/fix their behaviour before getting a warning in some cases (only for rude/abusive comments of course. NLN comments are noise but harmless unless poster is creating too many in which case a manual warning can be issued) Commented Oct 3, 2019 at 19:40
  • @Jean-FrançoisFabre IIRC there has been some push back (from mods, even) on this kind of feature because it will mean a lot more mod flags asking "why are my comments being deleted" or users trying to repost their comments. The one big upside to no notifications of your comments getting deleted is that the users often forget about them and move on with their lives (as is sort of intended with comments being temporal, second-class citizens)
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 3, 2019 at 20:51
  • agreed. And even if the system warns us about too many abusive comments, we still decide what to do manually: ignore, warn, suspend, nuke :) So if we see that the comments are globally unfriendly, but just borderline, user gets a pass and will never know. Commented Oct 3, 2019 at 21:00
-14

Can we ask that the moderators and staff take into consideration the way they approach users who are among the top contributors to the site? Think about it this way: How much does the community stand to lose if you spend an additional 5 minutes, instead of usual mod duties, writing a more detailed mod mail message to a such a user who has recently shown problematic behavior, and if that 5 minute of mod or employee time is worth salvaging their potential future contributions. What about extra 10 or 15 or 60 minutes if need be? Can this type of issue really not be solved by investing a bit more humane interaction time?

I realize asking to do this for users who are outside of top 10% (or whatever threshold is fair for the site) may not be a reasonable investment of moderator's time but for those within, how often do you have to write such mails in the first place in a given month? Is using a quick and canned response worth it?

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    One issue is that the mod messages are purposefully designed to indicate the problem without dwelling on the rules lawyering that inevitably happens when you include the examples. The user knows their behavior and what they did wrong. Our message is about our expectations and what they should do moving forward.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 0:50
  • alright, didn't mean to presume too much, but I have only the word of those who are privy to that information to trust Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 1:45
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    @GeorgeStocker "the user knows their behaviour and what they did wrong" - the whole point of this question is they don't know and want to be told more clearly.
    – mason
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 3:34
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    "Can we ask that the moderators and staff take into consideration the way they approach users who are among the top contributors to the site?" This doesn't look like an answer but rather like a new question. Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 8:29
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    @mason I reject the premise in this case.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 9:49
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    @user1306322: it is important to understand that the OP in this case has a long history of aggressive and shaming language. He has moderated it a little bit, but only because he has had to.
    – halfer
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 9:43
  • @halfer great point, if your information is correct. I also had no way of knowing that either. I still believe my suggestion has merit in either case, though. You know, in an average scenario. With so little information publicly available we can only suggest the general advice. Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 21:38

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