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Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers. It's built and run by you as part of the Stack Exchange network of Q&A sites. With your help, we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming.

-- the Tour

I've heard from quite a few folks within the org that this goal of "a library" is problematic. Not because it's a bad goal, but because as the sole goal it doesn't allow for the creation of a path for new users - askers and answerers - that accommodates their needs.

What this means in practice... I don't know. I think the hope is that we can have two goals, and somehow resolve the inherent conflicts between them.

-- Shog9 in chat, a couple of weeks ago. (Part of a longer discussion about the future of the site and the library vs helpdesk dilemma.)

The community had long shared the company's goal of an 'encyclopedia of knowledge'; unfortunately, that goal also represents an understanding that not every problem a programmer has should be in that encyclopedia.

When it was Jeff and Joel directly driving the vision, the features oscillated between the two camps (Open to new users vs. Only good question that add to that encyclopedia stick around). Now that there's an entire product team devoted to Q&A and they see the downsides of the "only new good questions stick around" as gatekeeping, and the disadvantages to the life of the product that gatekeeping has, they're making changes to ensure that Stack Overflow will continue to be relevant to this and the next generation of programmers.

...

I have come to realize that keeping people out because their question is "too simple" or "they could have googled it" is not how you would mentor a junior programmer, and we should model the behavior we want to see out of programers. We want junior programmers to reach out for help instead of keeping it in.

I believe that it is normal to be upset when the goals change; but I also believe that you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. The people who own this platform are deciding what the vision of this platform is. We can either agree with that vision and work towards it, or disagree and stop participating.

-- a recent answer by George Stocker.


Most of us here contribute to Stack Overflow because we want to help build a library of knowledge. That library, at present, is a powerful benevolent force in the world - it makes working programmers of all skills levels more efficient every day, reduces the barrier to entry into the profession for new programmers, and helps amateurs and dabblers get stuff done without needing to first build deep expertise.

(It is also, of course, the whole thing that brings eyeballs to the site, and hence ad revenue to Stack Exchange Inc., of course.)

Yet, for a long time, it's been unclear whether that vision is one that the staff still share. A recurring component of the "welcoming" drive was staff hostility to curation tasks that are currently necessary components of the "library" model (like closure, downvoting, and leaving critical comments). More recently, we've had a key tool for community coordination, Hot Meta Posts, removed on the basis that Meta, somehow, causes "psychological damage". And, per the quotes at the start of this post, it seems to be the sense of at least Shog and George that either significant factions of the company or perhaps the company as a whole are rejecting the idea of the "library" model being Stack Overflow's primary purpose, in favour of some sort of "helpdesk" or "mentoring" model.

But here's the thing: I don't want to work a helpdesk, or "mentor" anyone, and nor, I think, do most of the best answerers here. The library model is the force multiplier that allows me to do outsized amounts of good in the world for the amount of work I put in here; some of my top answers have been read by hundreds of thousands of people, and that's awesome. But by contrast, both for my personal satisfaction and from a utilitarian perspective, the helpdesk/mentoring model isn't worth participating in. There are a great many things I could do with my free time - like volunteer at a local homeless shelter, or work a second job and donate some of the money to charity - that would both do more good and be more personally rewarding than debugging random bits of code for random individual programmers.

And so I would like it if the staff could tell us, once and for all, what their vision is. Is the removal of Hot Meta Posts and the current war on comments on Meta just the beginning? Should we expect to see more curation tools taken from us, more changes made to the way the site functions, until it's no longer a place where someone arriving from Google can find knowledge? What, exactly, are you trying to build, and does your plan for building it involve tearing down this awesome library we've made so that you can build your new institution upon its foundations?

You've told us that ultimately you make the rules, and our only recourse is to leave. That much is true; you own the site and the brand name, and you may do with it as you wish. But everyone owns the content, not just you; it's CC-licensed, and we contributed it knowing that it did not become part of your library, but part of a library owned by all humanity. If you no longer want to be the people tasked with maintaining that library - if you want, instead, to build some kind of helpdesk or mentoring service - then all you need do is say so, and we will start doing the work of finding a way to migrate our content and our mission somewhere else.

Or, if we still have a shared mission, tell us that. We don't understand why you're making the changes you're making, and they seem to serve no purpose but to chip away at our ability to effectively build and curate the library. If we're on the same side, and this is not the gradual and deliberate usurpation of the old mission by a new one, then let us know that there's still a point in us contributing here, and tell us what you're really trying to achieve. Perhaps that will at least provide a starting point for some kind of useful discourse about how to move forward, rather than the resentment and confusion that have characterised the last several weeks.

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    To which I reply: The problem with many new users is not that they don't have a place to go, it's that they expect to come here with minimal knowledge and get extended tutoring. I don't know of anyone, inside the org or out, who has that goal.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 10, 2019 at 15:06
  • @RobertHarvey The message you quote sounds like an omen of doom - but on the flipside, there's also "we'd be kinda shooting ourselves in the foot by giving up entirely on the "library" thing in favor of the "helpdesk" thing." and "I think the hope is that we can have two goals, and somehow resolve the inherent conflicts between them.", which sound at least somewhat reassuring. I did my best to pick a short snippet of the exchange that, on its own, faithfully communicated the uncertainty and ambiguity that was the overall conclusion of the conversation. Maybe I didn't succeed.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 10, 2019 at 15:07
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    It is long, but... Right now you're taking a frank admission that I haven't polled half the company on this question and implying it means something else, while ignoring the bit where I relay what I do know.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 10, 2019 at 15:15
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    @Shog9 Ah, interesting - I took your "I don't know" to imply something much more than just that you haven't polled your colleagues. I understand your original objection now; I wouldn't've put the original quote to use implying that lots of your colleagues don't know about or understand the "library" goal if I hadn't thought, myself, that that was what you meant to imply. I've picked out a later quote that is perhaps, in that case, a better highlight of the discussion - hopefully that no longer feels like a misrepresentation? By all means edit further if you still object.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 10, 2019 at 15:25
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    Heh... I hoped you'd know by now: if I know or even suspect something, I just say it; if I say "I have no idea", that's literally the truth.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 10, 2019 at 15:30
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    I should also indicate in case this isn’t apparent is that it’s my opinion based on my observations. I have not asked anyone involved whether it’s accurate or not. This was just like, my opinion, man. (Also there’s a larger context this conversation occurred in but that point was already covered).
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 10, 2019 at 15:33
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    Most of us here contribute to Stack Overflow because we want to help build a library of knowledge. That sounds reasonable, but it's loaded with assumptions. What is "most of us?" Can a person "want to help build a library of knowledge" but have other reasons for contributing? I want to help with that and it influences how I contribute, but it's not my one and only motivation. I suppose if my motivations were as focused I'd be more concerned about changes too. But from my perspective it's just change, not the end of one thing and the beginning of another. Commented Aug 10, 2019 at 16:43
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    The exact intended meaning of the quotes is not that relevant to the question, but the problems in interpreting them shows how important it would be to get this question here answered. The point is that we need some clear official statement what the company's mission is. If we had that we wouldn't need to disect employees statements trying to infer the company's goals.
    – sth
    Commented Aug 10, 2019 at 22:52
  • I'm pretty sure that the people who set up SE wanted it to become a store of knowledge (and make money). The people who run it at present seem to see it more as a vehicle by which to make money (and a store of knowledge). The two aren't necessarily incompatible, but it does mean that their priorities, in terms of 'content vs social' are very different.
    – Richard
    Commented Aug 11, 2019 at 7:31
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    They don't know. That reply is specific to how they'll change their Q&A format, but that indirectly answers this (the model represents the idea. If it's not intended as a library of knowledge, that changes the model applied to the site) Commented Aug 11, 2019 at 9:36
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    Whoever decided the content license in the beginning, I would like to express my eternal gratitude for that. Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:18
  • @Zoe "They don't know. That reply is specific to how they'll change their Q&A format..." Not sure this is really true. They must have some kind of idea where they want to go, even if they don't know exactly how to get there. Nobody just does things at random, or do they? It's more likely they don't want to share the goal. Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:21
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    @Trilarion alright, let me rephrase then: they aren't sure enough about where they want to go, so they don't want to share potentially unfinished ideas and receive the meta feedback most of it comes with. Sure, they probably have some general idea (which is why I'm not a fan of that reply), but what can you do? They're probably still working out the details and alternatives Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:41
  • @Zoe I guess the general idea is what this question asks for. Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 9:07
  • Relevant: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/388663/1394393 And my interpretation of the answer.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 15, 2019 at 14:36

4 Answers 4

5

The goal of creating the library has long been accomplished. I can't point to a particular moment in time where we passed it, but Robert Harvey's answer captures the artifact pretty well.

What we need to do now is maintain it and set our expectations for what that looks like accordingly. In the thousands of questions that come in every day, one or two might be the nice hardbound volumes that we put on the highly-curated shelf.

In 2008, every question had the potential to be the wonderful, hard-bound book, bound for the shelves in the largest collection of programming knowledge. In 2010 this still mostly held true, but you see where I'm going here. We're still asking people to bring real-world problems that they face every day to the site, and folks are doing that, but we're finding less gold as we pan through sediment. We're a library that was created through the process of people simply asking questions.

Sediment is something we must embrace or at least tolerate, because that's where the gold comes from. Are we still optimizing for the best case? Yes. But to reach that, we need new generations to keep bringing the problems they encounter as they do their work to us. Since many questions exist and have excellent answers, there isn't a huge value proposition for many folks to create and maintain an account here. That means people drift off faster than they replenish.

But, what does optimizing mean, in 2019?

It means finally getting a handle on things that have been kicked down the road for probably too long. How we empower people to deprecate information, for instance. Have you ever seen an old accepted answer with hundreds of votes that was great in 2008 but actively harmful today? Yeah, we have to deal with building tools and having discussions around specifically how we'll deal with that.

We have to identify and mark differently true canonical questions. We need to put more sanity around the question merge process and let trusted users with certain tag badges use those tools. We need to do almost everything related to duplicates better than we currently do.

We need to re-work the way we show things so people don't feel so overwhelmed that they're terrified of failing a few times in order to learn.

Objectively and critically, I can say that the experience for experienced users AND new users are both suboptimal. However, the experience for new users is disproportionately suboptimal. To go forward, we need to bring them into roughly the same space, and work on them together.

But here's the thing: I don't want to work a helpdesk, or "mentor" anyone, and nor, I think, do most of the best answerers here.

And we need to come up with other things for folks to do. Even if everything was otherwise perfect, people get tired of answering questions eventually. New things feel exciting and terrifying because we don't want to do too much, but what do we have for folks finding their interests wandering? I'm really glad we're re-investing in the network, but we need more.

However, it's up to you to decide if the relationship is healthy. We're not a perfect actor on this stage, we've made plenty of mistakes. But, we need to think more about where we go from here.

In short, we have to create a reality in which we remain relevant to generations to come, with ample opportunity for those that have come this far with us to stay on and keep enjoying the ride. We're working on that, these are major themes that Q&A product teams are thinking about and know we need to solve to make meaningful leaps forward.

So, what about meta?

We're not going to showcase a place that is supposed to be a means for primary engagement if it's full of hostility, unwritten rules, cynicism, personal attacks and unfocused angst and rage. That's why the links were removed, because when we were rewarding the most controversial, pushing folks away was becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And, we simply can't put employees in a position where they endure 100% of the accountability with only a little influence on decisions that get made. And before folks chime in with "Well why don't you just change your process?" I'm going to tell you, it's not that easy. It takes 5 people to get a line of text changed, that's the reality of working on large product teams. You lose some agility in exchange for an end-product that isn't bolted and taped together.

The level of condescension, ridicule, hostility and outright rudeness breached a limit that we consider to be tolerable, and Meta will continue to be de-emphasized until it reaches a point where that's no longer the case.

There's no person to point to, no single discussion that's an example, it's the sum of it over time. Blame isn't really helpful here because it detracts from going forward. A hundred people taking a tone that's a tad harsh, when directed at one or a few people, is crushing. It was happening to employees, new users, moderators, even seasoned contributors that haven't been on meta for a few years emailed me to ask what had gone so terribly wrong. No one person is responsible for deterioration over time that went unnoticed until it was a major problem. If anything, we waited too long to step in. Nobody is blaming you or anyone else. But we have to deal with what we have in the present.

I don't know if this is the answer that you want. I firmly believe we're capable of creating a future in which anyone that still has spare cycles to give can center themselves as a contributor doing something to advance a common good.

But, above all, if you take nothing else away from what I've written - things have changed, and we have to remain relevant. I can't lay down a more detailed vision for what that means because I'm not our new CEO. But we know what we need to do in order to support what that ends up being, and that's what we're doing right now.

That's... the best answer I can give.

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    *sigh* Okay...so there's some things in here to unpack. I'm fine with the idea that the site needs to change to be relevant. I'm perfectly accepting of the reality that the experience for new users is poor. I'm totally on board with fixing up the snark that exists on the site - both here and on Meta. But...I suppose then that there's still this twisting sensation I'm feeling where my feelings about this site still persist, in that we're still being considered all of these mean things. Makes me want to just disengage.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 16:31
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    I get it. Meta isn't a pleasant place. Moderators should've been cleaning it up and they simply haven't been until now, which is a surprise to me. But I'm just not interested in being called any of those mean things anymore. I'm trying here, dammit!
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 16:31
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    I suppose I'll leave it like this - if you want to work with us, choose language which does not make either party the antagonist. I don't want to work with y'all if you insist that Meta is some evil place when in reality, it needs to be cleaned up. I've been here quite a while and maybe it's the case that I can't see the forest for the trees anymore, but I've not really felt any of the things you've experienced or described here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 16:36
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    Some disagreement with the top section: I don't believe that the library's done or ever will be. New tech is invented every day. My experience has been that we find less gold because we have more sediment: I don't know that the proportion has changed. The subjective experience depends, I think, on the absolute number as much as the relative.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 16:39
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    Doesn't really help me. Maybe it's because I'm still more optimistic than nihilist these days, but it's the same thing that gnawed at me from Sara's blog post. I get that undesirable feedback in volume isn't pleasant. But is that not the job? Was I missing something from this?
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 16:40
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    I get that Meta needs a direction change, and that there's going to be sour grapes and yelling because people don't like it. But...I'm going to have a very hard time believing the, "nobody is to blame" bit when there's so much in the blogs implying that very thing. The actions that keep happening just reinforce that perspective, no matter how many times it keeps being said.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 16:42
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    @RobertHarvey That...doesn't really help. That doesn't change the implication, but makes it sound like we're being talked about behind our backs. And it's not just the blog itself.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 16:45
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    @weegee: Meta's toxic only because no one's bothered to clean out the refrigerator. Yes, we have snark and we are somewhat blunt. However, the things that are truly harmful should've been just categorically removed already. I'm feeling like Meta's getting blamed here for something that really wasn't its fault.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 16:47
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    @RobertHarvey: Then we are in agreement. My only real concern is that there is just this constant...pressure...that the site is just negative but outside of a few spot points, I'm having a hard time identifying anything actively flaggable.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 16:54
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    Secondary to the main point, but worth saying: as somebody who has been grumbling for a long time about the fact that staff criticisms of our tone are usually given in highly morally charged language that clearly conveys that we are bad people in some way, I appreciate that this answer both steers away from that language and makes a point of explicitly calling out that that's not what it's trying to say.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 16:54
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    @Makoto I do think downvotes are rather harsh on meta; especially since the 'downvotes indicate disagreement' is an unwritten rule (see the hovertext for votes); but I'm more concerned with knocking stuff down for the sake that it doesn't meet your worldview instead of coming at it from the spirit of trying to build something better together. People would quickly be kicked out of a professional software team if they acted in that team giving feedback like they did on Meta.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 17:01
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    @GeorgeStocker: I...I...I don't know how to react to that. It's actually explained in the FAQ for Meta what votes are meant to represent. I'd say we want to get that information out to a person quicker, since they would need to know why voting happens and how voting happens. What...are you even proposing here?
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 17:04
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    If everyone's upset about the fact that the votes are negative, then fine, I give up; we're going to have to wait for UX to get back to us.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 17:05
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    If the library is complete, but SE (as a company) needs to maintain relevance and interest from consumers, does it follow that it is time for the library project to be isolated and forked, whether by SE or users? If new questions are getting less useful over time, would it make sense to not just lower the bar for removal (number of votes), but raise the bar of expectations (more stringent requirements)? Perhaps questions should even start on-hold (perhaps with a deletion timer) and require community approval, rather than just avoiding rejection. Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 2:00
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    "And, we simply can't put employees in a position where they endure 100% of the accountability with only a little influence on decisions that get made. " So don't. Have the person responsible for the decisions present the ideas and new features. This is a problem created by SO management, not by meta. "I can't lay down a more detailed vision for what that means because I'm not our new CEO." Q.E.D.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 7:03
47

I would like to share some thoughts as a consumer of Stack Overflow.

For the last couple of years, I have been working on a project that uses Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF). For those of you who don't know what that is, it's essentially the successor to Winforms, a 30 year old technology that was in dire need of a replacement.

Desktop application development is not in vogue at the moment, except in places like Germany where they still recognize its value. I am asked more often than I am comfortable with why we didn't make it a web application. WPF is sort of the odd cousin; most developers would rather hang out with the popular kids, even though the cousin is somewhat of a savant.

WPF is both wide and deep. The two go-to books on WPF are each about two inches thick; reading them merely scratches the surface of what WPF is capable of. There are very good websites on the Internet that provide excellent resources for learning WPF.

But WPF does have its warts. As flexible and broad as WPF is, that flexibility and breadth comes with its own problems. You can do almost anything you want in WPF, and there are two or three ways to do everything. Many things feel like bolt-ons at first glance.

The upshot is that WPF is a perfect example of a technology where it's really, really helpful to have someone to talk to who's been in the forest before, who can point you in the right direction.

Is the WPF tag on Stack Overflow a coherent library of material? Not by a long shot. It's a bowl of candy, a box of unsorted point-solutions. It's a hodgepodge. But everyone in that tag understands the challenges of using WPF. Seldom does anyone get their question turned away due to lack of prior research. I've asked canihazcodez questions in that tag.

And, at a much greater rate than could be explained by sheer luck, I've gotten an answer to my WPF question in the WPF tag of Stack Overflow by doing a simple Google search.


Now, don't get me wrong. I still provide some code in my questions. I show what I've tried. I'm not excusing the folks who can't be bothered to make some effort to help themselves.

But Stack Overflow is probably not this master oracle of programming knowledge you speak of, and never was.

From Stack Overflow's very first day, Joel was not emphasizing the Wiki aspects of Stack Overflow, nor the "we're building the ultimate library of programming knowledge" aspect. What he was emphasizing was speed: that you could get an answer to your programming question really fast, and that it could be vetted by voting.

The problem, as I see it, is not that we're failing to live up to some arbitrary standard of content perfection. It's that we're not effectively educating new users about how the site works. Nobody expects a football player or basketball player to score their first goal or touchdown without learning the rules of the game and practicing some fundamentals, but that's exactly what we expect new users to do here, and we call people unfriendly who don't believe in that fictional ideal.

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    I suspect we are talking past each other due to different understandings of the "library" metaphor. When you say "And, at a much greater rate than could be explained by sheer luck, I've gotten an answer ... by doing a simple Google search.", to me, that's precisely what Stack Overflow serving as a library of knowledge means. This answer seems to be premised on the word "library" implying something more than that. I'm not worried about us ceasing to be the "master oracle of programming knowledge"; I'm worried about precisely the well–functioning model that you describe here getting broken.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 10, 2019 at 15:56
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    Fair enough. But I also think we've been "talking past" the staff. And there are folks here who do believe in the oracle.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 10, 2019 at 16:03
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    Interesting read. What if it were the case then, that no one really knew how to use the site? All that anyone's presented with at any moment is a form for questions, votes and comments, and somehow out of all this, the asker is delighted with an answer that's been vetted by the community. A lot of talking about this issue talks past the parts when this relationship breaks all the way down; if there are no experts to vet answers, and the question itself is downvoted - which might be appropriate - means that there's no one left to really illustrate how things work.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 10, 2019 at 21:14
  • You're right about the site not being some shining paragon of programming wisdom, but I believe that there was always that underlying intent. It does bring a point to a head - how is the site meant to work for all of these cases, or is it simply unsupported behavior? How does that even get fixed?
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 10, 2019 at 21:16
  • I work in a different tag than you and while I do run into people who can't help themselves first, the users that have made an attempt and deals with one of those warts I can step up and say, "ah I see the problem, here, this is what you need..." even if an answer already exists (but I've never seen it), so that if I find myself thinking, "I've written this before!" I can go find the duplicate. The whole notion of duplicates is great, on the MC Forge forums we've had to compile a list (that no one reads). Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:00
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    So how do you handle trainees when you have no team to speak of, only a large group of individuals that all think they know how the site works but will in reality just yank trainees in opposite directions so hard that their arms will pop out of their sockets... Yes I watch too many cartoons.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:05
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    @Gimby: That's a good question. The best answer I have is to let people figure it out by closing their off-topic posts. Hmm, if only corporate didn't see that as an "unfriendly act..."
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:09
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    You can put up all of the traffic signs you want, but people are still going to speed. The way you get them to stop speeding is by issuing citations, not by putting more words in the Driver Handbook.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:11
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    Or by issuing fewer driving licenses in the first place...
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 17:14
  • I agree, but how about a driver's test? i.e. a quiz on how to ask/answer before doing so. Or is that too high of a barrier to entry?
    – ejderuby
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 18:28
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    "It's that we're not effectively educating new users about how the site works. Nobody expects a football player or basketball player to score their first goal or touchdown without knowing the rules of the game or practicing some fundamentals..." You can't expect them to do that even with education. They have to practice first. This is why I don't see giving them information as a solution; it won't help without practicing and getting accurately evaluated on whether they still need to improve.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Aug 19, 2019 at 23:40
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    @jpmc26: As I alluded to here, and in the passage you quoted (..."or practicing some fundamentals").
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 20, 2019 at 0:25
12

It should be noted that the Stack Overflow official Twitter bio says

Building communities where everyone who codes can learn and share their knowledge

That sounds like a much more honest description of the current goals than anything posted on the site itself.

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    "Stack Overflow is an open community for anyone that codes. We help you get answers to your toughest coding questions, share knowledge with your coworkers in private, and find your next dream job." I would love to see more thoughest questions. Instead I am here closing copy/paste homework question without even one line of code.
    – aloisdg
    Commented Oct 15, 2019 at 15:15
-15

The world is not black nor white. There are at least fifty shades of grey in between.

We can either agree with that vision and work towards it, or disagree and stop participating.

That's wrong, because there are many different ways to participate. For example, I could only answer the questions that I think should be answered or upvote the questions I think should be upvoted. A perfect alignment of my vision with the visions of other users or the platform owner is not necessary.

The same way, the platform owner could follow more than one vision. It's not a one thing or the other there either. They could try to maintain a knowledge base to some extent and teaching beginners to another extent at the same time.

Totally independent of this is that they should state clearly what their current goal is. Everything else wouldn't be being honest with their active users.

The ongoing experiment with 3 close-votes are enough will be quite interesting. I think that we will learn something about the vision of the company by the results of the experiment and the reaction from the company.

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    The conjecture made of those two visions, as I've elaborated on elsewhere on Meta, is that they are mutually exclusive. If you're focused on maintaining a knowledge base of answers, then it requires some level of discussion about "useful" questions and "useful" answers. If you're focused on teaching beginners, then you're going to allow questions and answers which have been asked before. Without a goal there's no one saying what we need to be marching towards, which thus far is the only point I'm agreeing with you on.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:03
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    @Makoto I guess that following two visions may make it harder to fulfill them both optimally at the same time, but it's not totally impossible. The right kind of filtering could split the questions into the knowledge base questions and the help-desk questions for example. My impression is it's what we are doing right now. Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:09
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    That may explain why we're doing so poorly. Focusing on both has put the company at odds with the community. I'd give you three guesses as to which side has taken which position by and large, but I think you'll only need one...
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:10
  • @Makoto I fully agree that we are doing both rather poorly, but still it's what the company could say that they want to do. Just wanted to argue that the company doesn't really have to have only one vision and one clear focus. Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:13
  • I agree with this answer. Ideally the company should only be considered with providing a great software platform, and to maintain the servers, whith the community being responsible to answer/vote on the questions. The problems arise when some want to create global policies to control how other people vote, at which point the company is "forced" to take a position. At that point, it cannot accommodate all members of the community.
    – user000001
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:19
  • 4
    @user000001: That's nonsense. The company is very explicitly about creating Q&A communities. Policies must exist at some macro level to ensure that a lot of the pain points encountered by communities are at least lessened.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:27
  • "That's wrong, because there are many different ways to participate." Sure, but you either support it, or you don't. If you don't, then don't contribute. No one says "you have to agree to keep contributing" - this ain't the terms of service. "They could try to maintain a knowledge base" - they have a massive Q&A and an associated meta Q&A. All the possible things you could do are documented, and a lot of questions already have answers. There was the documentation (if you remember that), which failed. Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 15:44
  • 3
    It's been asserted that Stack Overflow cannot maintain a library of knowledge and provide a way to answer questions for newer developers. I don't know what the evidence of that is. It sounds to me like asserting that someone can't do something without knowing what they intend to do or how. Providing an avenue to help newer developers could strengthen the library aspect by providing an alternate way to keep stuff out of that library. That aside, I've seen zero evidence to support the assertion that it's impossible to do two (or more) things well. Amazon is still great at selling books. Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 16:35
  • 7
    @ScottHannen It's been asserted that Stack Overflow cannot maintain a library of knowledge and provide a way to answer questions for newer developers. - no, that teaching beginners and having high quality Q&A are incompatible. Nothing stops a newer developer asking a good question.
    – Rob Grant
    Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 21:20
  • 3
    @RobertGrant - I chose my words poorly, because you're obviously correct. What I meant to say is that it's been asserted that Stack Overflow cannot maintain a library of knowledge while also providing help to developers in ways that do not contribute to that library of knowledge. (Whether those developers are new or not is irrelevant.) That assertion - that Stack Overflow cannot do both things - is what seems unfounded. Or at least I haven't heard any convincing evidence to support it. Commented Aug 12, 2019 at 21:33
  • @Zoe "Sure, but you either support it, or you don't. If you don't, then don't contribute." I don't understand this binary presented choice. All I want is that the company clearly states the general ideas where they want to go. After that it's absolutely my decision how and if I contribute. I don't have to support anything, of course I also cannot complain about anything. Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 9:13
  • Sure, so do I. The problem with SE is that they have so many internal processes that something like that can take unnecessarily long. This one blog post was anticipated for 2-3 weeks from it was unofficially announced to it was published, and had probably been written for a while at that point. The point is, either you support the model, or you don't. If you don't like the way a massive part of the site works, but you like some features, then you either support it, or you don't - again, entirely your choice. You can also support it a little, but it's still supporting it. Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 10:04
  • That being said, supporting it is NOT the same as agreeing with absolutely every aspect of the site. Off the top of my head, I personally disagree with the way SE changed the front page for new users, but I still contribute because that's "insignificant" enough. (I still think it scares off potential users, but that isn't replacing the entire system and all/the majority of the site mechanics). I hate using this meme, but we'll probably end up waiting 6-8 arbitrary time units before we get some concrete info on what they're planning. Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 10:06
  • 1
    @Zoe "...either you support the model, or you don't..." Somehow that is not helping me much. I have my own idea of what model I would like to see and if the overlap were greater, I could surely contribute more, but I also could contribute less. Commented Aug 13, 2019 at 10:15

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