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tl;dr: I edited a question, removing parts I considered a jab at veterans. The edit got rolled back. I raised a custom flag saying that I don't want to involve in edit war, but I think the respect should go both ways, not only to new users. The flag was marked helpful, but only part of the text got removed. What is the next step if I disagree?

Yet another "How much research effort is expected" controversy

I got engaged in the Why is the popular "How much research effort is expected" answer deleted? discussion. While I agree that the most upvoted answer was too hyperbolic as an FAQ answer for newcomers, I came to conclusion, that the next answer (the one that was left when the most popular got removed) was also inappropriate - this time with respect to established users. So I edited away parts I considered jabs at others.

Today I noticed the most popular answer was restored with hyperboles edited away and my edit got rolled back. I raised a custom moderator flag, which was marked helpful, but only part was removed, with a message that the rest is a valid argument and I can downvote if I disagree. Well, no. Writing about

the precious minutes it would take away from Mother Theresa's busy schedule.

I don't consider an argument. And if moderators/CMs engage so strongly into making most popular answer more newcomer friendly, please have the same standards for other answers and also being veteran friendly.

Now two questions arise:

  1. Is a post on meta a proper way to discuss disagreement with moderator handling flag?
  2. What should we do with the answer I edited? Do you agree it is not OK to leave it as it is?
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    1. Is a post on meta a proper way to discuss disagreement with moderator handling flag? would be yes. Meta is really the only place for that. I don't have a strong opinion on that phrase though. I can imagine why you'd want it gone, I can imagine why others would want it to stay, and I can imagine why a mod wouldn't want to get involved there. Calling others altruistic (which is the intent if we may believe the edit summary) is not really against the CoC afaik.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 10:37
  • Sometimes mods will disagree with you. Definitely do not keep raising custom flags or editing when that happens, if that answers #2. As for #1 yes, that is the regular way of doing it and in this case I'm not sure why you can't discuss it in the original Q&A.
    – ivarni
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 10:42
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    You can always choose to let it go and move on. Someone disagreed with you on the content for that post. A mod didn't think they should intervene. At some point you may be better served by thinking about what are you gaining by carrying on with the fight.
    – yivi
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 10:46
  • 1. Yes. 2. What answer? Link to it. If you are talking about your own answer in the linked discussion, the most recent version before deletion is nothing but a non-constructive rant. As such, it doesn't belong as an answer on the site. Dispute it all you want, we have standards on meta as well as on the core site. The mods were correct to delete it.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 11:01
  • @Lundin apparently, this one. I agree it's better to be linked - right now, the most direct way to get here (based on the post) is to go to the linked thread that talks about the question, then follow a link to said question, then scroll down to the second most voted answer. And hope the order doesn't change in any way. Or examine OP's profile and go to the recent edits done.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 11:06
  • OK. So the specific issue got resolved - moderator stepped once more and removed the offending part. Thanks. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 13:13
  • Eh, that wasn't a moderator, just a normal user with barely over 2K rep.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 14:02
  • Right. I looked for author downwards instead of upwards. So let's see how the situation evolves. Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 14:04
  • @ErikA Hey! I’m offended by being called a “normal” user. I assure you I’m anything but normal ;)
    – Dan Bron
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 0:28
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    Evolution: Jesus ChristJon SkeetMother Theresasomeone else 🤣
    – Cœur
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 5:01
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    @Cœur also, it's now locked. Because it's a public wiki, that means anybody can edit it and people are editing it. It's somewhat funny that the public wiki thing backfired by serving its purpose.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 7:09

2 Answers 2

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Yeah, we have a mechanism for this: downvotes. If you disagree with an answer, downvote it. That goes for whether you disagree with the argument, whether you disagree with the presentation of the argument, or whether you just dislike the answer's formatting.

It just doesn't work to have folks going through and making heavy-handed edits to other people's answers to reflect their own personal bias. This is a massive abuse of the editing system, which has always required that editors respect the original author's intent.

Admittedly, there are times when removing offensive content can be justified as being in keeping with the author's intent. If you believe that the author did not intend to offend (generally a fair assumption), and you make a very judicious edit that preserves the spirit of the original author while just removing the offensive phrasing, then that is not really a problem. But wholesale deletion of a point that someone is making just because you think that point is wrong or because you feel "offended" by it is utterly inappropriate.

Yes, I'm aware that Tim Post recently did something similar. I consider Tim's actions to be a massive abuse of his moderator privileges, for all the reasons described above. I made this point in a comment below his answer:

Meta has always been a platform for people to share their opinions in a constructive way, and although you might disagree with it, that answer was neither rude nor inappropriate. Wrong answers can be downvoted, not deleted. That's always been the rule, Tim.

I'm choosing not to consider what Tim did to be a precedent-setting action. I'm choosing to see it more as a one-off mistake, an attempt to "do the right thing" without adequate consideration of the long-standing precedent and the very important reasons behind that precedent. This is the only sustainable approach; everything else begets absolute chaos and, ironically, even more disrespect.

In case it wasn't obvious, I'm the moderator who handled your initial flag. I don't have a problem with flags like that per se, and I tried to strike a balance between respecting the author's intent and respecting the feelings of the flagger, but I really didn't see anything there that would be offensive to you or any other veteran user. I'm in a pretty good position to judge that, since I consider myself to be a veteran user. It's difficult to see how likening me to Mother Theresa is an insult, and even if you argue that the reference was meant sarcastically, it is just hyperbole to emphasize a larger point: askers shouldn't worry about wasting answerers' precious time, because that's the whole purpose of the site (according to Noob Saibot).

This whole business of taking offense at content just because you disagree with it is getting out of control. If you disagree with something, downvote it. Don't get offended about it; don't take it personally. If you're offended by everything that disagrees with your own personal beliefs or prejudices, then you're going to have a really hard time in the world.

If something is objectively offensive or serves no obvious purpose, then I'm happy to remove it. But in this case, that is part-and-parcel of Noob Saibot's argument (regardless of whether or not you think it is a sound argument), so removing it is inappropriate.

I've attempted to tone down the rhetoric once again by removing the "Mother Theresa" reference. I hope this helps. If it doesn't, then you are fresh out of luck. The next step will be locking that answer. There is absolutely nothing in its present formulation that is objectively offensive or otherwise in violation of our Code of Conduct. The author has a right to state their point of view. You have a right to disagree with it, and to express that disagreement via the voting system. However, you also have a responsibility to respect the author's point of view and allow them to express it, so long as they do so constructively. That is the critical grease that allows this engine to continue running.


Procedurally speaking, what you did is fine. The initial flag was fine, and you were right not to just keep flagging the same thing to express your disagreement. A Meta question is fine, because that allows people to make actual arguments—me, in more than the paltry number of characters than the flag decline textbox allows me to type, and others who might persuade me that I am wrong and need to reconsider.

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    Hey, I don't think you need this mental backup but in case you have doubts: You handled the whole saga with that specific post perfectly and I thank you for that. I'll bring in the sock-puppets to up vote this answer even more. Cheers!
    – rene
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 6:09
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    Thanks for your answer. I totally agree with you. It's just this specific question into which they came with all their wellcomness bypassing all the built-in mechanisms. And it looks like you can use hyperbole and snarks, but only towards curators, never newcomers. And you must respect other's answers unless you are providing a new FAQ on top of existing posts. It enraged me a bit. But anyway this whole thing got out of control so I'm leaving this issue. I guess your attitude is the best here - act according to ordinary rules and leave the mess with this question to those that made it. Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 8:20
  • Yes, I'm aware that Tim Post recently did something similar. I consider Tim's actions to be a massive abuse of his moderator privileges, for all the reasons described above. But Tim isn't a moderator, he's an employee and an executive of the company. It could have simply been a executive decision and not a moderator decision. I get where you're coming from though and agree that this shouldn't be precedent setting.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 9:28
  • Fun fact - the answer I was complaining about is now locked. It makes me unable to follow the advice from this answer as I cannot vote on it. Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 14:13
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    @Magisch Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. By being an employee with (effectively) administrator privileges, he's able to override even a moderator. Which is precisely what "abuse of power" is when you look at what he did, how he did it, and why. Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 15:21
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    Downvoting this answer for recommending downvoting, not because I disagree with that course of action, but because it is currently impossible. Isn't there a content lock you can apply without blocking votes?
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 2, 2019 at 22:14
  • @rene Thanks for the vote of confidence. I pretend that I don't need it, but it's nice to have once in a while anyway.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 5:54
  • @Magisch Certain employees are given moderator privileges. Tim is one of them. I see his actions there as an abuse of those moderator privileges. The fact that he can or did assign himself moderator privileges by executive fiat is not especially relevant, other than perhaps it is worse that an employee did it than a community-elected moderator. I tried to keep this answer about the topic at hand, rather than venting my frustration at the recent decisions by Stack Exchange employees. It is very difficult for me to be constructive about that.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 5:56
  • @Ben Understood. As far as I know, that is not possible. Locks are going to lock every aspect of a post, including both editing and voting. We've asked for more granular locks in order to deal with situations much like this one, but they have not yet been provided to us by the team. This is one of the reasons that I try very hard to avoid locking stuff, but in this case, I support Sam's decision to lock it. It is better to miss a few votes than to let that turn into a circus.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 5:58
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    "it is just hyperbole to emphasize a larger point" Isn't the reason the top post got deleted, and later massively edited exactly because hyperboles were being used? Quoting Shog9's answer as to why he made the edits he made: "That's it. No hyperbole, no snark, no world-weary ranting. Just the facts and reasoning." Can we get a list of which hyperboles are allowed then?
    – Remy
    Commented Jul 3, 2019 at 9:07
  • The post "has been locked while disputes about its content are being resolved." I agreed with you, accepted your answer. What else should be done to resolve the dispute and unlock the answer? Commented Jul 5, 2019 at 12:12
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Your edit was appropriate, but no moderator has been handling a flag incorrectly. The incorrect edits to the posts after your edit were done by other users. The post as it stands right now looks ok at least to me.

  1. Yes, post on meta as or , depending on the nature of the post.
  2. Regarding your edit here, it was perfectly appropriate. It wasn't a moderator who messed up your edit, but an ordinary user. See edit history. Your edit was incorrectly rollbacked as edit 9. The post has since then been fixed by a moderator Cody Gray among others.

Notably, this answer (like the whole thread) has been turned into a community wiki, meaning that every user has the right to change the post in more radical ways than normally. This explains why there's so many edits made.

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    "It wasn't a moderator who messed up your edit, but an ordinary user" OP never claimed otherwise? The sequence of events described is: edit is made -> it gets rolled back -> OP raised a mod flag -> flag was approved but not all changes were restored from the original edit.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jul 1, 2019 at 14:34

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