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A sed question was closed as unclear yesterday:

Modify value in a config file using sed

The question was subsequently improved by a user who also posted an answer which was accepted. Said user is now upset that the question has not been reopened after these improvements.

I'm raising this here to get a second opinion from the community. Should we reopen this question now?

My primary reason to leave it closed at this point is that it is a duplicate of many existing questions, though none are very specifically identical. See e.g.

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    I'm pretty sure you can't stop it from being reopened now that you linked to it on meta ;) So close as a dupe as soon as it is. Assuming a better answer lives in one of the other questions of course.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 7:48
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    @Gimby Meta effect goes both ways, could also end up being downvoted into oblivion and/or featured on Hot Network Posts ...
    – tripleee
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 7:49
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    It's got an accepted answer so I'm not sure why it needs to be reopened just to be reclosed with a different close-reason so I guess I agree with you. Maybe link to the duplicates in a comment and hope that makes it more obvious to reviewers.
    – ivarni
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 7:52
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    I see no reason to re-open it, based on a opinionated prejudiced user ranting about it being closed... The question also seems rather broad.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 7:55
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    User @tripleee says, "...could also end up being downvoted into oblivion". As a 97K user, your stated reason for coming here appears to be farming for downvotes? I just said to you in chat: "leave it closed". Commented May 2, 2019 at 8:15
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    You also repeat allegations that I am violating or at least bending the site rules. Now trying to get more visibility is apparently part of that tactic too...?
    – tripleee
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 8:18
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    @tripleee, you agreed with me in chat that the question is not unclear but insisted it should remained closed with a message to the OP that says his question makes no sense all the same. That's the truth. I gave up in frustration. Have fun here in Meta. Commented May 2, 2019 at 8:20
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    The sole reason I spend more of my time on this is to attempt to resolve this matter in a way which is acceptable to the community, if not you personally. If you are uninterested in how it plays out, I don't see why you keep on commenting. Just for the record, I have tried to be as objective as I can. The observation that a meta post might attract downvotes is in no way an attempt to drive that behavior - in fact, I'm mainly hoping to bring the matter out of my own sphere so I don't have to engage in it any longer; so I really don't plan to contest the outcome, whichever way it goes.
    – tripleee
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 8:27
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    @AlexHarvey: If you take small portions of what tripleee said out of context, then yes, this can be read as a high rep user attempting to shut down that question... If you actually read this meta question and the comments, you'll come to the conclusion that tripleee is just requesting some more input.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 8:34
  • If my understanding is correct the post should be in re-open queue. Perhaps we can add the dupe link in a comment on the question, so we can easly close it In a not controversial way. If the post survive the reopen queue. Commented May 2, 2019 at 8:53
  • If we don't have a superior dupe target that can't be contested. We win nothing in the reopenning. If the dupe target are not good enought then simply link them as "related". Commented May 2, 2019 at 8:55

3 Answers 3

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The question was reopened but then promptly reclosed as a duplicate. I guess we can regard this as settled now ...?

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Apologies for a long story. I have been commenting fragments of my thoughts about this for too long now, it's time I put it to an answer.

From my perspective, the problem here is that this is something the community at large is completely divided about and there is also a bit of financial considerations involved here that muddies the waters. Questions are traffic, after all. Outlawing entire subjects which are very popular is not good for business. What subjects? Well. SQL. CSS. HTML. Regex. And yes, maybe SED and AWK too, in part. I'm sure there are a few more tags that can be added to the list, but these come up frequently.

These tags have many unofficial names. They have been called "send-me-teh-codez" tags right here in the comments and there is a hint of truth to that, I like to call them not-exactly-programming tags or a variation thereof. Tags that don't really mesh with the goals of the site but they're deemed on-topic nonetheless because they're involved in the programming world. But that does sort of make them the ugly duckling in this site which is by it's own admission strictly aimed at programming problems.

And then you have for example CSS questions. Gigantic piles of CSS questions, people have built empires on them. And what questions are they usually? "I need to render this on the page so and so but I don't know exactly how to get it done". The answers, often, are code-only. Just the CSS and maybe a bit of HTML to demonstrate how to do what is requested. All the mentioned tags follow this pattern. The questions are not truly programming questions most of the time, they are more questions that ask about how to get a certain result. Basically, people ask for code.

Now if you pose such questions to meta: red alert. All the rules are being broken, how can such things go under the radar!? Why are such questions not downvoted, close voted, duplicate closed and/or burned?

Well - because the people who answer questions under such tags do not agree with you. They happily answer any and all request for help, provide answers that on the surface appear to help only one person. They do not duplicate close and will likely upvote far more than they downvote. How terrible right? A whole subcommunity of people that go against the grain and just play fast and loose with the site rules. They're feeding the help vampires and answering the low effort questions.

Yeah well I don't actually believe that, at least not anymore. These people instead, know better. After years and years of focussing mostly on backend development, I did a project which required modern frontend techniques. So I learned Angular and I dove into modern CSS developments, learning about flex box and CSS grid and learned about reactive design. CSS and HTML are fully specced technologies and in this day and age pretty universally applicable across all browsers. Yet I had the greatest trouble to get a simple form to behave the way I wanted it to on different screen sizes. It didn't size the way I wanted it to, it didn't wrap the way I wanted it to, it didn't space the way I wanted it to, it didn't align the way I wanted it to, etc. etc. I read the specs. I read articles. I saw dozens of youtube videos. I referenced dozens and dozens of CSS questions on Stack Overflow. "How do I get this output?" questions with code-only answers.

Not a single one was a solution for me but they were all massively useful to me. It was never the case that I could be helped by one Stack Overflow question or one youtube video that showed how to generically apply these CSS techniques, I needed the combined efforts of many resources to solve all the nitty gritty problems I had. Because when it comes to the more content-oriented subjects, the devil is in the details. You can have two answers which differ only by 2 characters and still be 100% different answers solving 100% different problems. In the end I did not have to only fix my CSS, but also redo some of the HTML markup to allow CSS to do it's job more properly. Good luck finding that in the specs or in a tutorial. The only way I got it done was by seeing the examples in numerous CSS questions that sort of matched my problem description and finding the combination of factors that was the winner for me just be sheer experimentation.

Thank god those questions were answered rather than dupe-closed because something else looked similar.

And thank god for Stack Overflow allowing in CSS questions, because having to use Youtube to figure this stuff out is a bloody time consuming nightmare.


So what can we do? The answer to me is simple: don't be so strict with the rules when it comes to not-strictly-programming tagged questions. Don't be so eager to duplicate close them. code-only answers are usually fine. They certainly helped me a whole lot!

BUT. I can't fault people for applying the tools as the site presents them in the way that is documented for them to be used. In the end it's just a pretty shitty situation that there are whole subjects of questions represented by these tags that are allowed in and then at the same time are pretty much rejected by the site's rules for what they represent, and thus also by the people that try to do the best they can by following the rules as honestly as they can. Nobody really did anything strictly wrong in this scenario, every choice and opinion voiced and executed upon can be defended. There is no consensus. When there is no consensus, there is no reliable way a question will be treated. Sometimes (often?) the tag community gets its way in the way they want it, sometimes they are overruled.

So yeah, this question's duplicate closure marks the situation settled. Some people will claim a victory, others a loss. Who is right and who is wrong? I'd be mighty interested to see an official statement about that, because the denizens of Stack Overflow are not going to solve that riddle.

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    I'd argue that the dupe closure add value in this case: The answer stays, but it also links to other similar resources.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 3, 2019 at 9:09
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    I was nodding along in the analysis part +1, but I don't agree with the conclusions -1. I can't really comment on the CSS experience but there is such a thing as as competent Awk programmer, and there are significant scripts written in sed, though I would generally advise against attempting that, especially if you don't have a solid foundation with simpler scripts.
    – tripleee
    Commented May 3, 2019 at 9:12
  • Thank you Gimby. +1 from me. Some parts of your answer are so important that I wish you could edit out the bits that are, IMO, incorrect and/or unimportant. For instance, there are expert AWK programmers in the AWK queue. It doesn't help to question their status as real programmers, even if many of the users of AWK aren't real programmers. But you are 100% correct that those of us- me included- who feed the "help vampires", do fully understand that we are doing good and helping people, and as you say, sooner or later everyone's going to need help in a tech they don't have time to learn. Commented May 3, 2019 at 12:55
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    @Gimby: I think the problem you're outlining is incorrectly focused. SQL is Turing-complete; that's the opposite of "not-exactly-programming." Regex is, well, a regular language, and thus is very much programming. HTML and CSS are a bit different, but these are tools that programmers are using to solve programming problems, so they count too. The problem has nothing to do with the subject of these tags; it has to do with how users of the tags are treating them. They choose not to enforce our standards, not because they are "not-exactly-programming", but because they choose not to. Commented May 3, 2019 at 16:51
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    Sed & AWK are also Turing complete, @NicolBolas. I certainly agree with you that literally no one in these queues is using the close/downvotes in the way intended. This includes the people like me who don't believe in down voting; and the people who do use their down/close votes- but generally for the wrong reasons. Commented May 3, 2019 at 23:29
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This Meta question notes that a sed question was closed as "unclear what you are asking". It notes that the question was then edited to bring clarity and suggests that "a second opinion from the community" is needed to decide if it should be reopened.

The question continues, paradoxically, to suggest that, despite the question's subsequent clarification, it should perhaps stay closed because it is a "duplicate" of "many questions" - the only problem being that none of the duplicates the OP could find "are very specifically identical".

At the time of writing, the OP's question is upvoted a net 6 times (+9/-3). The rules as I understand them are:

  • If a question is closed as unclear, it can be reopened again after it is made clearer.
  • A question is a duplicate if the same answer appears elsewhere on Stack Overflow.

As far as I can tell, no one has disputed that the question was edited satisfactorily for quality. Subsequent discussion focused on whether the question was a "duplicate".

What is disappointing is the response of the "community". Some comments immediately followed:

  • "I'm pretty sure you can't stop it from being reopened now that you linked to it on meta ;) So close as a dupe as soon as it is. Assuming a better answer lives in one of the other questions of course."

That is, of course, what predictably did happen. What was less predictable is that the question would be closed, by the votes of by 5 users in here, in favour of this one:

The problems here are many:

  • That question doesn't have an accepted answer.
  • The question is of low quality and downvoted.
  • The solution is over-complicated.1
  • It is a completely different question. The first question is about updating a value in a block of text. The second question is about uncommenting lines between two patterns.

So how did this happen? Why does this happen? You could say it's human nature, human error? Unfortunately, at least 10 different users have participated in all this. Maybe 15. All of them choosing to vote in support of breaking Stack Overflow's rules, to the detriment of quality.

And why. Because I have been vocal in highlighting uncomfortable truths about what goes on in this site?


1 As can be seen by comparing it with the simpler solution that I added there.

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    I'm afraid you are probably overestimating your own importance in all this. If you would like to make an actual difference, perhaps you could post a canonical question + answer which addresses the problem space more broadly.
    – tripleee
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 12:31
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    "All of them choosing to vote in support of breaking Stack Overflow's rules, to the detriment of quality." For the last darn time: Give us a link to those rules we are breaking, as you have claimed so many times.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 12:31
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    I didn't do any voting based on who you are (or who the asker of the question is). I did vote to close because I still think that the questions are duplicates and that not every minor difference between two questions makes them non-duplicates. I agree that your solution is simpler than the one provided in the duplicate, but also that doesn't make it a non-duplicate. I'm really not in a mood today for being personally attacked, so I'm out now.
    – BDL
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 12:34
  • @tripleee, as far as I can tell, you're the only person in this conversation who actually knows sed. This is the last thing I have to say here: since you know full well that the question was closed incorrectly as a "dupe", why didn't you reopen it? Commented May 2, 2019 at 12:36
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    I disagree that your answer is of good quality. "This should work" with some code attached but without any explanation is not a high quality answer at all.
    – BDL
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 12:37
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    Here we are again with the "since you know full well that..." snark
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 12:40
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    Wait, uncommenting lines of text isn't just a more specific way of saying updating a value? And between two lines isn't just a more specific way of saying in a block of text? I'll admit I don't know sed that well, but I do know English pretty well, and your assessment doesn't add up for me
    – Clive
    Commented May 2, 2019 at 12:41
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    You are not selling this well. You might get ahead by pointing out that [sed] and [awk] are send-me-teh-codez tags, similar to [sql] and [regex]. The kind of tags where programmers are not expected to have to read the manual, Google queries never help and a canonical is just another manual. SO users hate those kind of questions, but it is generally accepted that [sql] and [regex] are a lost cause. You'll have to make [sed] a lost cause as well. Commented May 2, 2019 at 13:47
  • @HansPassant, your insightful comment here deserves to be added as an answer, IMHO. Commented May 2, 2019 at 15:29

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