46

With all the back and forth (and the Do you mind if I don't's) between everyone regarding comments, and the Code of Conduct, and new users, I want to check with the community whether the canned comments I am leaving are now unacceptable for new contributors who clearly cannot even be bothered to do a Google Search, nor make the effort to search on Stack Overflow.

An example is this question which is by a New Contributor but shows no effort, no research, no attempt, and NO MCVE

I downvoted, and VTC as Off Topic and left these comments:

I downvoted/VTC because no attempt was made and no research was done and a Minimal, Complete, Verifiable Example was not included

and

Hi, a search in StackoverFlow or Google may have given you How to delete multiple rows in Excel or Deleting Rows Based on Multiple Cell Values Using VBA in Excel

Are these kind of explanatory comments seen as helpful, or snarky, or something?

Of course I can just VTC, Downvote, and MOVE ON, but I like to try and explain to the poster why their post is downvoted, and very likely to be placed on hold, closed, and deleted...

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  • 3
    Relevant: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/355950/…
    – franiis
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 9:12
  • 94
    If you're commenting for new contributors, don't use abbreviations like VTC. They might not know much about close votes, and will likely not have a clue what that means.
    – Erik A
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 9:13
  • 35
    I believe you can say exactly the same without referring to your actual votes. (E.g. comment on the content, not on the vote). That would also help, IMO, to avoid possible unpleasentlies.
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 9:21
  • 18
    And generally speaking, canned messages are not very useful, if at all. Pointing specific problems in the post you are commenting on, and hopefully suggesting some improvement, would be much, much better. If you do not want to leave a personalized comment, I think that no-comment is better than canned-comment. And canned comment that doesn't refer to the votes, better than a canned message that address the voting.
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 9:21
  • 7
    I would imagine that your second comment is not a canned comment. But still, what's use is the "a search" line? If you want to link a post, just do it. No need to comment "you should have searched before asking". That line reminds me too much to LMGTFY links.
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 9:25
  • 12
    I upvoted (yes, UPvoted) because I consider this discussion necessary. I want to show new users the ropes, without having to write entire paragraphs. But also without getting flagged for not being "Welcoming" enough. <insert rant against the whole "Welcoming" thing here>. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 9:28
  • 8
    @S.L.Barth I want to show new users the ropes, without having to write entire paragraphs. Then use the system, and let the system messages do the work, and the existing help resources. If you do not want to put in the work of writing good, personalized messages to help new users (or old users, for that matter), just don't do it. No need to do it every time, anyway. There are many of us. But when you bother to comment, make it specific and relevant.
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 9:33
  • 14
    This may sound bad, but I strongly believe in "you get out what you put in". If OP has spent significant time writing a clear question which could have been answered in 5 seconds via a google search, I will certainly take the time to find the duplicate and post the second comment without reference to searching/Google/voting. If they post a list of demands, it's more likely to be "Welcome to SO. Please provide a [mcve]."...
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 9:35
  • 4
    ...In the first case, the fact they made an effort means it's more likely they'll use that effort more wisely next time when they see how easily the answer can be found. The second case, they are more likely to make SO answerers do the googling for them.
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 9:35
  • 4
    The second comment doesn't make sense, at least not when the link points to another SO question. Why not vote to close as duplicate which puts a auto-comment in place anyway? It is also not very helpful. What you get from a google search mainly depends on which terms you search for. A large number of such questions show up because op doesn't know the term to search for.
    – BDL
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 9:42
  • 7
    @yivi I see several users who believe that, if we're going to comment, it should be personalized. On Stack Overflow, I don't believe in that anymore. I've written my share of long, involved explanations... only to see that the question was simply abandoned. Give us canned comments that explain what's wrong, like idownvotedbecau.se, and see if the asker takes the advice to heart. If they do, then we know that they're actually interested in being helped. Then we know it's worth our time to help them improve their question. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 9:42
  • 6
    A personalized, directed comment that explains clearly what is wrong with the post has one big advantage - it clearly identifies the user who prevented an answer appearing, and so the target for flagging, criticism and abuse. Of course, that doesn't help the curator or OP at all, but what's new? I really don't see the problem with canned comments, after all, most posts fron new accounts fall foul of the same, small set of failings:( Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 9:55
  • 3
    Wait, really? This post is the first time I had heard of it, but I immediately assumed snark was the entire point of it. It's a custom domain invented purely to tell people they're wrong, like LMGTFY or a Facebook group with a clever name created solely to be tagged. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:24
  • 3
    @Olly Yes it is quite snarky/rude; linking to an off-site location with a wall of text and more links just to justify a downvote? You can just say what the post needs; you don't need to say you downvoted because it lacked it. Also, all that information is on SO in places, no need to mirror it on a 3rd party site.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:56
  • 11
    idownvotedbecau.se is not rude or snarky (it's not like LMGTFY which is intentionally snarky), just unnecessarily combative. Especially combined with the "no attempt was made" and "no research was done" verbiage - you don't know that no attempt was made or no research was done just because no evidence of such is present in the question. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 6:12

8 Answers 8

69

I personally came to be believe most canned comments to be unhelpful.

If you bother commenting to a post, take the time and put the effort to write a comment that's specific, relevant and meaningful. You know, like the kind of effort we expect from users of the platform when they post questions or answers.

Commenting on bad content is not an obligation. If you do not have the time or the inclination to leave actually helpful feedback (as a comment), just leave it for someone else.

Having said that, what I find wrong with the two specific examples you bring forward:

I downvoted/VTC because no attempt was made and no research was done and a Minimal, Complete, Verifiable Example was not included

Comments should address the content, not the votes. Saying "I downvoted you for X and Y" is not better than posting comments saying "I upvoted you because of your very thorough explanation".

On top of that, a post with that many problems was much better closed and left alone. If you want to really help the user into editing into shape so it can be re-opened (unlikely as it seems considering all the grave fails you were listing in your comment), actually put in the time to help.

Otherwise, just let them read the on-hold message and the help-center. A lot of useful information there!

(And to further nitpick... you didn't vote on them, you voted on the post).

Hi, a search in StackoverFlow or Google may have given you How to delete multiple rows in Excel or Deleting Rows Based on Multiple Cell Values Using VBA in Excel

This one doesn't look particularly canned, but I guess that in the tags you frequent this issue might crop often enough to warrant a canned comment.

It is much better than the previous one, as it points the user to helpful content. (Though, I'm intrigued if voting to close as a dupe wouldn't be the better solution, but I haven't read any of the linked questions to know if it was a dupe or not).

Nevertheless, the reference to "a search in StackoverFlow or Google" does not seem helpful at all, and reminds me too much the old LMGTFY links (and you are not even showing what search terms would produce the results you are linking to, which might have been the user's original problem).

If you want to point users to useful URLs, just do so. Editorializing about "you should have searched before" is just pompous to my eyes, and not really helpful.

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    Maybe I'm missing something, but why would you ever post the second comment. If you're sure it's a dup, just VTC as a dup if you have the rep. If you're unsure or don't have the required rep, you can manually comment with the standard: "Possible duplicate of some post."
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 10:15
  • 2
    @jpp I haven't read the question where it was posted, so I can't be sure they meant the question was a dupe. But if it was, I mentioned that voting to close as dupe might be a better option.
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 10:16
  • 6
    Got it, +1 anyway for Comments should address the content, not the votes. I personally like the idea of comments being a last resort, only for use when you can't upvote existing comments + VTC.
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 10:18
  • @yivi: If it wasn't a duplicate, then why blame op for not doing his research.
    – BDL
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 10:27
  • @BDL No idea, I wasn't the one who wrote the comment nor I have read the post it was supposedly posted under, nor I agreed with the "blame the user for not researching" angle. There could be scenarios where the links were relevant, useful, the research needed, and yet the post not a dupe. At the very least, I see the comment contains two links, whereas you can normally only VTC as a dupe of one target.
    – yivi
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 10:30
  • 1
    @jpp the vote is based on the content, so addressing the content or addressing the vote are more or less the same thing. Addressing the vote has the additional advantage that the (new) user is told explicitly where the downvote came from, which makes him understand how to avoid downvotes in the future.
    – Marijn
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 16:29
  • 2
    Canned comments can be helpful if they contain useful links (like "the tour", "the help centre", and "how to debug small programs by Eric Lippert"), but they probably need to be edited to make them specific to the question/answer. Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 13:19
  • 2
    @MartinBonner - Big time. I have a bunch of canned comments I use, but I never post them blindly, and it's rare that I can use the canned version directly without doing any editing before posting it. (I use a bookmarklet that fills in the text area, then I edit before posting.) Commented Aug 25, 2018 at 13:34
43

I think comments deserve a kind of sequential workflow.

#1 Don't comment

I don't think this option is emphasized enough. There are many ways to be helpful without commenting:

  • Upvote existing relevant comments if they exist.
  • If the post is a duplicate, don't comment. Just VTC as a duplicate. Or Flag as duplicate if you don't have sufficient reputation.
  • If you deem the question unintelligible or unsalvageable, DV + VTC with an appropriate reason.

#2 Comment with link to dup target

If you aren't sure of the duplicate target, especially if you are gold badge holder with the right to close as a duplicate unilaterally:

Possible duplicate of some post.


#3 Zero-effort comments

The effort you expend should typically align with the effort OP has put into the question. After all, a zero-effort question may require a huge amount of hand-holding to transform into a good question. You can be a help-desk, but you may soon tire of this function. It's not scalable. So, for a zero-effort question:

Welcome to SO. Please supply a [mcve].

Another zero-effort example:

Welcome to SO. Please focus on one specific issue. As it stands, this question is too broad.

The above comments can be useful when, for instance, collecting the necessary close votes takes longer than it should, or never happens.


#4 Positive-effort comments

For a question with more effort, it can pay to be more specific.

Welcome to SO. Please supply a [mcve]. In particular, provide the code you used for benchmarking and indicate the performance you require.

Another example for a question which demonstrates effort:

Welcome to SO. Please supply a [mcve]. In particular, provide some input data so we can verify the behaviour you are seeing and test potential solutions.

In all cases, don't mention "downvotes", "closure votes", "searching" or "google". That's what I call noise as it's more likely to shift focus away from content.


I repeatedly hear "cut the Welcome to SO and Please parts, they're noise". My litmus test is what I would appreciate in a conversation with colleagues. Typically, using only the imperative mood, e.g. Supply a [mcve]. Provide some input data. Use google., doesn't leave an impression conducive to helpful responses. Either in real life or online.

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    Well, if the user cannot interpret imperative responses as useful, they cannot handle the tools used to program computers. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 11:50
  • 16
    @MartinJames, I don't think that's a judgement for you or I to make. I know many competent programmers who misinterpret directness as aggression. This is magnified online, where tone does not exist. Those 4 words might, and in my experience does, make someone more likely to comply with your request.
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:07
  • Ad #2: Why no "duplicate" flag, even when you cannot mark it yourself? This will put a "possible duplicate" banner on the question and the user has a chance to close as duplicate or edit the post.
    – allo
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:45
  • 1
    @allo, Excellent point! I forgot that was possible, have updated.
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:54
  • 1
    Honestly - the only points you needed to make were #1 and #2, but I find myself agreeing overall.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:06
  • 1
    #4 100%. When I first started contributing, and I occasionally did something wrong, the extra 'Welcome to ...!' made me feel like the community wanted my contribution (provided that I would follow the guidelines), and that they cared enough to teach me how to participate
    – jpyams
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 20:04
  • I don't think any mention of search is noise, especially when users know what they want but not what it's called. e.g. "This is too broad to answer here, but a keyword to search for is 'stochastic language generation'".
    – Amadan
    Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 9:24
  • 1
    @Amadan, Literally, you're right. But what I meant was don't talk about the act of searching. "You may wish to look up Aho-Corasick algorithm and Poincare conjective" is great; "You should search for this online" is not.
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 9:42
  • @jpp 'I know many competent programmers who misinterpret directness as aggression' maybe, but they are essentially unemployable as they cannot work effectively in a team. I agree that there is more to programming and software development than technical ability, but bringing agression to SO on a tech question is.. what's the word... unwelcome! Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 11:07
  • @Amadan oh, I can agree with that. 'Google for [tech search terms] is fine:) Example 'C++ how can I read a column of numbers from my Excel spreadsheet?'...'Google for COM automation Excel'. Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 11:09
  • 1
    So every comment has to start with “Welcome to SO.” for a new user? Then, since Stackoverflow is already capable of showing a banner when it is a new user, why doesn’t it include the “Welcome to SO.” prefix to every comment automatically? That would save us a lot of time. And it would be extensible. Just replace all occurrences of “Show what you have tried” with “Welcome to SO. Please supply a [mcve]. In particular, provide your code and input data, so we can verify the behavior you are seeing and test potential solutions.” automatically.
    – Holger
    Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 12:09
  • 1
    @Holger, So every comment has to start with. Please don't extrapolate / paraphrase / extend / imagine. I'm only commenting on the objection that's always raised when I suggest such a comment. The fact is, removing it is fine. Including it is fine as well. Just don't beat people up if they include it.
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 12:39
  • 2
    @Holger If a previous commenter has said "Welcome to SO", you probably shouldn't. You probably should still include the "Please", (although if they have commented well, you may well be able to stop at #1) Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 13:25
31

Let me make my point up-front and explicit.

Do not use canned comments. They are worthless.

The problem you're showing us is the classic Stack Overflow paradox; you want to help someone with their question, but their question has enough flaws to make it irredeemable.

I get the impression that the whole CoC revamp has everyone treading on eggshells right now, since these comments are at least geared to try and "be nice" to the new contributor...

enter image description here

...but the problem is that the actual desired outcome is impossible to reach from the current position. Worse, the comments are actively detrimental; the question can't realistically be salvaged in its current state.

Even though the commentators had meant well and intended to do a good thing, they've thrown this OP overboard and then gave them hope.

Let's take the question as it stands.

I am using excel vba. I have a scenario where i have 3 columns, which may have values or they will be blank. What i want to achieve is to remove the row where all these three columns are having null or blank values. If any one of them has value, the row should be retained.

As i am new to this, i am facing problems in achieving this. Any help is appreciated.

This doesn't require advanced Meta-analysis; the question is incomplete at best. The domain space is actually fairly narrow; the OP has a specific requirement to filter out rows in which three columns are blank. This isn't terribly tough to achieve and is reasonably answerable.

However.

There are problems with this question that make getting what the commentators are asking for a true fool's errand.

  • What version of Excel is being used?
  • What was their implementation?
  • What errors did they run into?

At a minimum, the OP needs to provide the following:

  • The code that failed and what error they received

...but the comments don't do anything to guide that. They just go off to say, "Here, read this prose and then come back to realize why your question sucked." The likelihood that the OP is now going to go back and engage positively is a lot lower, since now they've been bombarded by a lot of unhelpful (from the point of helping with their question) noise, and have to sift through all of the wonderfully written prose we've left behind.


The only message we need to send for a question like this is closure. The question can't be reasonably answered, so we should stop pretending to answer it. If the system isn't doing enough to make it clear to the OP that their question is deficient in an area, then we need to advocate for changes to the system, and not use comments as a stop-gap measure to fill a void.

I mean hey - the team had enough bandwidth to brand all of the new users. Surely they can take a few days to add some just-in-time guidance for new users.

Further reading:

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    I'd just like to add that the main reason these comments are worthless is that the user is already being given all of the information in these comments. The user has already been shown the help center, they're being given a description of what the question is doing wrong in the close reason, the close reasons all link to the help center for more info, etc. All of these comments are just repeating info they're already being told, which is what makes them worthless.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:47
  • @makato: thanks or this, it does put it all into perspective... Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 8:09
  • Worthless? Interesting choice of words. We're now supposed to be super nice and tip toe around new users, but on meta we can still be as blunt and direct as we please. This is especially strange since one of the most recommended actions is to simply vote, flag and move on, but the "on hold" explanation is also just a canned respond and usually even worse at giving useful direction to the OP. Are abstract voting numbers and a canned response in a yellow box really worth more? I doubt it.
    – C Perkins
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 3:20
  • @CPerkins: If you believe my post was in violation of the Code of Conduct, feel encouraged to flag it accordingly.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 26, 2018 at 17:19
  • I was commenting on the principle, not worried about the CoC. Let me rephrase what I meant: Going directly to closure is not worth more in helping an OP post better questions. You started with "Do not used canned comments", but the closure message are exactly that... canned comments! You say "advocate for changes", but not everything can be fixed with a new button or automated mechanism. Comments need not be viewed as stop-gap measures and worthless. I find immediate closure without any attempt at additional feedback more detrimental to helping the OP improve.
    – C Perkins
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 2:56
  • 1
    @CPerkins - that's kind of my point. You don't need to commentate any further than what the system is providing. If you find that to be lacking...provide feedback to that effect to get them to change the wording. Every time others have commentated on questions as to what was deficient, it has turned into a huge mess. It's not worth it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 4:43
11

This coming from someone who doesn't like or agree with all new changes SO been making lately, and who's known to snap and roar at new users that put no effort into their questions:

  • Creating an URL idownvotedbecau.se alone really comes across as arrogant and snarky. This is exactly in line with LMGTFY. Sure there are lazy kids looking for copy/paste of their homework, and there's no reason to be polite to those. But to those who post bad questions in good faith, not knowing better, links like these are a bit too much.

    It is better to just leave the default close message as explanation - those messages are actually quite good and helpful. Then let the poster figure things out themselves from there. If they are genuinely interested in improving, they will come around.

    And yeah there's actually some good content at idownvotedbecau.se. But instead of creating an external "snark-URL", it would have been better to simply write all of this down at meta and link to the meta post. That's what meta is for. Probably, several such posts already exist somewhere on meta.

  • Because of the automated messages, there is often no need to provide additional ones in the form of links. If you can be bothered to point out exactly what needs to be changed in a question - awesome. But if you are just dumping your personal copy/paste message with some links... it is not very helpful. Most people doing this are just repeating the automated messages, only adding clutter.

  • Don't use SO slang when speaking to strangers. VTC and MCVE is pure SO slang; these terms do not exist elsewhere. Nobody will know what you are talking about except veteran SO users. In general, avoid inventing and using TLA because they are confusing.

However, the latter message where you come up with a duplicate question on behalf of the OP is perfectly fine. These also help moderating the post, if it should be closed as a dupe.

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    The problem with CV reasons is that they only show to the asker after the question is on-hold. A comment (whether idownvotedbecau.se link or otherwise) is immediate feedback. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 11:41
  • 3
    @S.L.Barth That's not a problem at all, it is per design. The messages need not be shown before there's consensus from 5 veteran users that the post should be closed. If it was 1 person's call if the question should be closed, then the system would be designed that way.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 11:44
  • Umm... entering 'MCVE' into a popular search engine gives: 'About 222,000 results', with an SO Q&A explaining the concept as the first entry:) I accept that 'VTC' is more obscure.. Also note that 'MCVE' is a FLA:) Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 11:45
  • 2
    @MartinJames And entering the no research effort question in the same search engine gives the answer to the question. So what's your point...
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 11:48
  • 7
    @Lundin It can take ages for a question to be put On Hold, and ages for it to get Reopened. The design that you explained makes sense, but I'm not sure if it works at Stack Overflows current size. I think if we could give new users more immediate feedback, it would benefit both them and us. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 11:50
  • 2
    @S.L.Barth The solution to getting questions in low-traffic tags closed quickly is to participate in the SO close-vote review chat. (Which of course has it's own abbreviation too: SOCVR)
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 11:54
  • 2
    @MartinJames the effort required to write out the additional 27 characters instead of using the acronym seems worth it to prevent a known newbie from having to Google the acronyms being thrown at them. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:46
  • 6
    "there's no reason to be polite to those" exactly this is why we got a new code of conduct. There is a reason to be polite even to people being lazy. Why do so many people think they should be allowed to be impolite? Even when you think low-efford questions are impolite themself, that's no reason for you to be impolite. This isn't tit for tat, you should always try your best to be nice to others.
    – allo
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:53
  • 3
    To the commenters discussing the MCVE abbreviation: don't forget that we have a magic link [mcve]. It automatically expands to the full name and links to a further explanation. Everything our hypothetical asker needs, right at their fingertips. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:58
  • 7
    @allo But there is no real reason to be polite to people being rude. What you are failing to grasp is that posting a homework dump with no effort given, expecting help, is incredibly rude. If someone bursts into my home and starts throwing shit around, they can't expect me to be polite in return. Rather, they can expect a fist to their face. I didn't sign up for some self-realization site where I should find my better self or where I'm expected to raise someone else's kids to behave like adults. Rather, I signed up for technical programming Q&A, where I offer tech advise free of charge.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:24
  • 2
    @S.L.Barth It can, only because people tend to leave comments in stead of voting to close. it's quite frustrating.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:47
  • @Lundin I agree, people posting rude questions don't deserve politeness. They may even deserve rudeness. But I don't think that's the point: there's also the issue of collateral damage to innocent bystanders, who don't realize how rude the OP was being, but notice all the rudeness in return and think, "My, what a rude and unwelcoming place". So the rudeness doesn't help (even if the rude OP is insulted into going away, there are hundreds to replace him), and it does hurt. Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 15:42
  • it would have been better to simply write all of this down at meta and link to the meta post there was one of these and they removed it because it was unwelcoming or some other BS reason that was not fully baked. That was kind of why the idownvotedbecause.se site exists now outside the control of SO.
    – user177800
    Commented Aug 25, 2018 at 15:51
  • @SteveSummit Then we need the tools to immediately remove these kind of posts from the site - not just close them but delete them. Give a gold badge user instant delete privileges for homework dumps. Instead of the 5 close vote 3 delete vote system, which only serves to preserve crap for extended periods of time. Informing the OP why their post is crap is not nearly as important as swiftly removing the crap from the site. No innocent bystanders will get involved then, as they won't even know that the post existed.
    – Lundin
    Commented Aug 27, 2018 at 8:10
4

Here are the issues I have:

  1. A canned response gives almost no value, and as others have said, don't use slang. I'd have to make a new question on what your comment meant.

  2. I feel it creates an unwelcoming atmoshpere. I have such a low reputation because I almost never ask anything. Even to the point I can't figure it out I still hesistate because I've seen how people can be if they consider your answer too simple or already been asked that they apparently had in their pocket for just this moment.

  3. Give a link if it's already been answered, I think it's important to not only make sure people understand to not ask duplicates but to make sure if someone else takes the time to answer or if that question remains on the site other people who happen on it can find the answers they need.

3

It's indeed a problem that many new posters ask basic questions, evidently having made little or no effort to do any research or answer the questions for themselves.

Clearly this problem annoys you. Your words

I want to check with the community whether the canned comments I am leaving are now unacceptable for new contributors who clearly cannot even be bothered to do a Google Search, nor make the effort to search on Stack Overflow.

betray not just annoyance, but perhaps even anger.

Personally, I would suggest that you not leave these comments. Personally, I believe that they are not welcoming. Furthermore, I do not believe that they help to solve the problem that annoys you.

Looking at the pros and cons of leaving these comments (and again in my opinion):

If you leave these comments, they:

  • Suggest to the OP that he should not have posted the question, i.e. that his question is not welcome here.
  • Suggest to the OP that you are annoyed by his presence here, i.e. that he is not welcome here.
  • Suggest that you are yelling at him. Those hotlinks look like emphasis. I know you're putting them in there to be helpful, but they also look like emphasis, like you're saying "I downvoted because no attempt was made and no research was done and a Minimal, Complete, Verifiable Example was not included", and unfortunately, this heightens the impression that you're annoyed, and yelling.
  • May make you feel a little better, by blowing off steam.

If you leave these comments, they will not:

  • Deter future first-time posters from posting similarly annoying, basic, unresearched questions.

If you do not leave these comments:

  • Someone else will deal with the OP in a kinder, gentler way.

So to me your comments have almost exclusively downsides, with almost no upside.

Now, it's true: The more useful and welcoming and non-abusive towards newbies we make this place, the more newbies we'll get asking basic, unresearched questions. I don't know how to solve this problem, but I'm pretty sure that yelling at the newbies isn't it.

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It would be nice to have canned-comment flags.

So I could click "no example" and instead of a snarky comment in the comment section - which only annoys other readers and is condescending for the asker - the post gets an badge "X persons think your post is missing a minimal code example".

It's much harder to take an anonymous vote personal and it's less annoying in the comment section.

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    These have existed since day 1. They're called close votes.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:25
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    That's not what I meant. Voting to close is something different than voting to improve. And a snarky comment is no close vote, too.
    – allo
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:35
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    Voting to close is saying that a question has a problem and needs to be improved to fix it before it can be answered. That's exactly what your describing.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:36
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    @allo: No, it's not. If the question doesn't have an example, and cannot reasonably be answered without one, then the question ought to be closed. And if you flag such a question, then you're agreeing with that assessment. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:37
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    When you comment "please provide an example" (possibly with a canned comment), you do not vote to close using the comment, too. And the suggested flag should be the same: A message to the user "I do not vote to close, but please improve your question". So either you need neither the comment nor the new flag, or you could use one of them. And then such a flag would have the advantages mentioned in my answer.
    – allo
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:38
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    @allo If you're not voting to close when a question has problems like that then you're doing something wrong. Closure exists for questions like that. That you're opposed to closing questions that can't be answered (for reasons you haven't stated, you've just stated, without supporting it, that questions should only be commented on and not closed when they can't be answered) is a pretty big problem.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:40
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    One difference between close votes and comments is that a comment gives immediate feedback. CV queue is notoriously big. If we can get new users to improve their question before it enters the CV queue, that's a win for all. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:41
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    "Voting to close is saying that a question has a problem and needs to be improved to fix it before it can be answered." It definitely doesn't feel that way. A negative score on a question, with no comment explaining it, feels to me like it's the community saying "Don't ask this you ninny". Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:48
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    @NathanHinchey That is how downvotes could be interpreted. But the official reason for downvote is in the downvote tooltip - "this question does not show any research effort; is unclear or not useful". That is when they should be applied, and how they should be interpreted. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:51
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    @S.L.Barth importantly, that is not a tooltip, it's title text. I didn't know it was there until just now when you told me. Downvotes pretty much everywhere else on the web mean "this doesn't belong here". I'm not arguing against downvoting, I'm just pointing out that -- like the warning that pops up every time you downvote says -- downvotes don't convey much information. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:53
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    @S.L.Barth Yes, the official reason is there, but how many new users know about it? Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:21
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    @NathanHinchey Well, it is a tooltip. It shows up when you hover over it. And of course, content that's downvoted doesn't belong here, as it sits (in the eyes of the voter at least). That it was downvoted means you need to edit it into something that does belong here. Some problems with a question are fixable, some aren't. Some are easy to fix, some are hard to fix. Whether you want to take the time to fix your post, or just leave it, is your choice.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:44
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    If it's only a tooltip that shows when a user hovers the downvote button, how would a new user be aware that that's the connotation of the button? It makes sense if you're the downvoter, but the downvotee would have no reason to go near that button. Some canned box from SO when a question goes negative ('This question has been downvoted several times. Please ensure that you have provided a [mvce] and are following all of our [rules]') could be useful here
    – Ross Aiken
    Commented Aug 24, 2018 at 14:02
  • It's a tooltip... on some devices. Using title text for a tooltip is "highly problematic" for several use cases. Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 15:12
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    @RossAiken I like that idea! Having system generated canned responses seems potentially very helpful. Commented Aug 28, 2018 at 15:14
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Legitimate downvotes almost always require a considerable amount of effort on your side:

  • You have to read the question.
  • You have to understand it.
  • You have to do at least some minimal research yourself.

Just jotting a lone link to idownvotedbecau.se is a strong indicator that you have missed one of the above points. It's like reading a novel and reviewing it as "bad book".

Besides, upvoting a question (or answer) that you had earlier downvoted, once it has been improved to meet the standards, is a great gesture, especially towards new users.

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    I disagree that we have to do research ourselves. It's usually quite clear when a question is bad. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:17
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    @S. L. Barth If it is clear, then just downvote. The question is about commenting. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:21
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    To elaborate: it takes me less than a second to know the question was posted in French/Spanish/Chinese or it inglsh so brken ud need a linguistic degee 2 dcod. It takes me less than a second to know that there's no description and that the scrollbar grabber has been reduced to a square. It takes me less than a second to know that the question has >1000 characters and not a single paragraph break or a question mark. It takes me less than a second to know that the question is a little too GRATUITOUS with formatting... Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:37
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    @GuidoFlohr Barth was referring to how clear it is to the voter that the question is bad, without needing to do research. Not how clear it might be to the author. I can often accurately tell that a question will be bad within seconds, for particularly bad posts. That doesn't always mean the author realizes why they're bad so easily.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:38
  • @Servy I understood the comment in the same way. When it is clear to you that a question is bad, you have three options: 1) ignore it, 2) comment on it, 3) downvote it. When does this planet become a better place by choosing anything but option 1? Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:50
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    I did, indeed, mean that it is usually clear to the voter that the question is bad. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 14:53
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    Also, since you're new to Meta: don't worry too much about the downvotes on your answer here. Here on Meta they are also (and usually) used to express disagreement. Most people have a few heavily downvoted posts here. It won't affect your reputation on the main site. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:00
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    I downvoted this with near zero effort... but i'm quite sure it's still legitimate.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:43
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    @GuidoFlohr The planet is a better place when you downvote it because then everyone else gets feedback that the post is bad. The author knows they have something they need to fix, other people see that the question is bad so they know not to waste their time with it if they're looking for a good question to answer, the system sees that the user did something wrong and can begin to act on that if it sees a pattern of problematic behavior, etc. Commenting (if done well) can help give the author more detailed information on what they did wrong, and how to fix the post to correct those problems.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:50
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    Just jotting a lone link to idownvotedbecau.se is a strong indicator that you have missed one of the above points. How? If you have a specific reason for down voting then you definitely read the question. If the reason given applies then you definitely understood it and you either did research or you didn't need to. I don't see how using one of the links at that site implies a voter voted carelessly. There may be reasons not to use those links but I don't think it implies the vote was unfair.
    – BSMP
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 15:51
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    @BSMP For me it is normal social behavior to comment with a complete sentence if I felt the urge to explain somebody that the question asked was inappropriate. Otherwise I wouldn't expect to be taken serious. This is my personal attitude, ymmv and that is okay to me. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 16:43
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    @Servy I generally ignore the score of questions altogether because I came to the conclusion that is has little relevance to me. It's a duplicate? So what? No effort made? I couldn't care less. Google has the answer? Well, why did Google send me to that question then? Users have different preferences and expectations. Mine are different. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 16:46
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    @GuidoFlohr Just because you're not interested in the quality of content doesn't mean you can assert it's not useful to know the quality of content. Other people care about how useful things are, even if you don't. The world would be a better place if you cared more about the quality of content, even if you prefer to interact with low quality content.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 17:03
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    @Servy But I do care about the quality of questions and content. I just find the score of questions and most other metrics increasingly useless. I rather judge myself. Commented Aug 23, 2018 at 17:13
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    99% of questions posted every day can be judged just by the title, or lack there off, 2 seconds glancing at copy pasted requirements with no code or a wall of code with no text, etc. Those require no effort to justify down voting or closure voting. Clicking the voting arrows can actually take more time than the time needed to review the question in most cases.
    – user177800
    Commented Aug 25, 2018 at 15:45

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