-76

enter image description here

So some users think the only ones using this site should be a 'he'. Is this tolerated behaviour?

I wasn't going to even start this question, but another user notified me and addressed her concern. I have decided to take step to fight this.

Stack Overflow lacks women representation, I usually don't want to talk about it thinking maybe it's because the lack of women in tech industry, but it's clear to me that there is more to it. This is a very good example of how sexism is thought to be normal and tolerated.

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    Maybe it's because my native language is French (where everything is gendered in the language and you default to masculine often), but I see no sexism there. I see someone not caring at all for what gender you are who decides to not address people by 'they', or 'it'. But then again I admit my native language may bias me strongly there
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:37
  • 15
    So some users think the only ones using this site should be a 'he' Strange, they've clearly said otherwise.
    – George
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:39
  • 5
    @Patrice: good point actually. We don't have a "gender-neutral" pronoun, either. That's why it feels weird to me, to use "they".
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:50
  • 1
    Same here @Cerbrus. If I have to call a table a 'she', it makes me awkward to call a person an 'it'.... I understand the whole gender neutral thing.... It just doesn't come to mind before 'he' does.... (And they actually, in French, is a plural 'he'. Unless you have a group composed of only women, at which point you use the plural 'she'.... I know, French is weird)
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:55
  • 9
    Seems like this issue has been brought up in the past. Personally I try and use gender neutral phrases as best as I can, and I'd like to imagine if asked politely most people would, especially in this case as it was more of a subconscious decision rather than one out of malice
    – George
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:59
  • 18
    "Blame the women, sexism always have a reason. It's never the offender who is wrong, always something women did" Nobody is blaming anyone here, you've thrown a rather harsh accusation after some one out in the open and when people don't respond in the manner you'd like, you suddenly go on the defensive with the "Blame women". This is, to me, poor taste and doesn't belong here.
    – Epodax
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:17
  • 25
    Blame women? I don't even know (not care) what gender you are/identify with (from Cerbrus' own words, neither does 'that wolf') No one is blaming the women. People just disagree with you. Screaming bigotry doesn't give a free pass to being right :/
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:19
  • 10
    Tempest in a teapot Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:21
  • 20
    My native language also lacks a genderneutral way to adress most things. Most people here default to male also. Some default to female. In neither case is it a big deal or problematic, imo. For another example, there's a workplace related blog I like to read where the author deliberately defaults to female instead of male pronouns if the gender of the person is unknown. I find that also fine and it does not detract from my reading experience at all. You just substitute that for "the person" in your head after a while. I don't think that blog author is a misandrist either due to this.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:23
  • 5
    When did we forget about the "Be nice" policy ? Just See no evil and assume good intention. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:07
  • 14
    I think that accusing someone of sexism for a reply he posted after you called him ignorant and told him you couldn't be bothered to argue with him is incredibly bad form. Rudeness begets more rudeness. Also, you should've anonymized. It's hard to discuss the appropriateness of a remark on a question that's not appropriate at all imo.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:35
  • 2
    @Dukeling Historically, singular they is perfectly valid. See: merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they and stroppyeditor.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/… for some historical details.
    – user1080786
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 17:17
  • 2
    It is a little self defeating to write a post about how being nice is oppression, and to then immediately follow it with a burn post about a specific user not being nice with their pronouns (especially in such a mild example). If there is going to be dialog about abuse or about the general use of language/terminology which are not nice, then they should be generalized. We need to get back to analyzing issues with behaviors in general, as opposed to users in specific.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 19:17
  • 1
    Thank god there's no gendered version of you in English, we can do this all day every day!
    – tweray
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 19:24
  • 1
    I suggest to ignore it. More than 90% of the SO users are male. If it really annoys you, then use a nick (or image) on which it is far better visible, that you are a pretty woman.
    – peterh
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 17:34

6 Answers 6

62

some users think the only ones using this site should be a 'he'.

I think you misunderstood that comment. Cerbrus does not mean that only male users should be using the site. If that is what you think the comment means, then you really misunderstood the whole situation here. I realise that English is not your first language; if unsure about what someone means, please ask someone to help you with translation.

Cerbrus uses 'he' in a gender-neutral sense, and states that he doesn't care what gender the user has, it just doesn't factor in in how he interacts with anyone. He's declared himself to be gender-neutral, rather than sexist.

You can disagree with him on whether or not on the terminology (the debate on gender-neutral language in English is far from settled), but the terminology choices do not necessarily make someone sexist (although they could be affected by gender bias). However, we are not going to cut the Gordian language knot here, not today. (For what it's worth, I use they).

However, what is generally not okay behaviour is for users to step in and make sweeping accusations against other users on Meta. If you feel someone is violating site policy, including sexist behaviour, then you should flag the user for moderator intervention. If you want to debate what is tolerable behaviour on Stack Overflow in a post on Meta, it's much better to stick to hypothetical situations without naming specific users.

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    Eh... I hope you actually have some evidence I can't see for asserting that the OP doesn't have English as her first language, and aren't just assuming it on the basis of this question. Because such an assumption would definitely not be sound; this sort of interpretation of the use of gender-neutral "he" screams feminist to me, not non-English-speaker.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 18:59
  • 1
    @MarkAmery: past experience and my reading of chat transcripts make me feel as if there is a language barrier at play here. For TK’s sake it would be better.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 19:14
  • 2
    @MartijnPieters It doesn't matter whether her English is native or not. As far as I can tell, she is fluent. At least she has no trouble trolling people and causing trouble over the years. (hint: take a look at some of the suspensions in her history as well as socks that have been long deleted) This meta post is just the latest in the series.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 19:19
  • @Mysticial: I’m well aware of their history so far.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 20:24
49

That's not sexism.

That's me genuinely not caring what gender someone is. If I say "he", I'm not "assuming" a gender, I'm using the first word that pops into my head.

No thought goes into the selection of the pronoun. None at all.


While we're slinging mud, let's bring up how you drag me into a chatroom, accuse me of being ignorant, and then flag me when I say:

"If I say "he", I'm referring to a user."
enter image description here

Never mind the disease you compare meta users with, that got you a 30 minute chat suspension.


I wasn't going to even start this question, but another user notified me and addressed her concern. I have decided to take step to fight this.

There is nothing to "fight" here.

You chose to read way more meaning into may choice of words than there is.

You chose to get offended.

You chose to call me ignorant.

You chose to attack me.

You chose to ignore my side of the story.


This whole mess started with a (now deleted) meta post where I "ignorantly" referred to the OP with "he". Resulting in the following conversation:

enter image description here

After which, that moderator pinged me in a rather unconstructive chat conversation. (screencap)

I'm not going to let a moderator's personal agenda dictate my choice of words.
If it were actual site policy, sure, I'd make an effort to use gender-neutral pronouns. But it's not. That means it's not a capital offence to use "he".

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    @Cerbrus I now realise there's some language differences here. I apologise if I was rude to you, I could have worded it differently. Likewise in English the gender neutral pronoun is "they" or "their", it's different to many other languages and I think this is part of the problem. We've been miscommunicating (you and I)
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:17
  • 20
    No, @YvetteColomb, you've been forcing your interpretation of SO's rules on me while you know we have vastly different opinions about that specific issue. You handled the situation extremely poorly. I'm still waiting for a link to our code of conduct that tells me to use gender-neutral pronouns. Don't turn this into a "we're both wrong". Here, you were the instigator.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:20
  • 16
    @Cerbrus didn't mean to inflame things. I was demanding in my attitude and I honestly didn't intend that. It was pointed out to me. And for that I apologise.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:21
  • 16
    Thank you. I accept your apology, @YvetteColomb.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:22
  • 3
    @YvetteColomb "the gender neutral pronoun is "they"" is not a politically neutral assessment of the state of the English language, and I don't like to see it from a mod any more than I liked to see one assert that "he" was the only correct gender-neutral pronoun. Gender-neutral "he" and "they" both have a long history of usage; "she" is increasingly popular nowadays; and the choice is a politicised one, with some feminists decrying using "he" as sexist and some conservatives decrying using "they" and "she" as politically correct.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 19:09
  • 2
    The first time I'm asked to use one of those whack gender neutral pronouns is the day I'm gone from this site. We will not be changed by a vocal minority - and when I say minority it isn't in the sense that you are about to complain about. A very small thin skinned group that divides us. Commented Aug 10, 2018 at 0:01
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I prefer that users use gender neutral pronouns, and do not agree with the resistance to using them. And would prefer that some thought would go into the pronoun selection.

But I do not think that using a gendered pronoun by mistake should be considered an intolerable offense either.

Unless you have clear evidence of a user continuing using an inappropriate pronoun towards you willfully after being informed by you of your preference of using a different one; I think that living and letting live is more rational response more in line with being nice and welcoming.

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    As a non-native speaker, I find gender neutral pronouns quite confusing for most people. "Being told a funny joke, they laughed". How many people laughed? I think more people would be using them, if they were easier to use in clear communication. In addition, as somebody with a 8-year school education in English, I only found out on an SE site that people using it were using a non-gendered pronoun... for a long time I assumed they were just bad at English using the plural wrong.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:21
  • 7
    @nvoigt As a non-native speaker, I find many parts of English completely baffling. That doesn't mean they are wrong. Once you get used to the confusing parts of the language, you are no longer confused. There is nothing natural about language, and there is nothing new about the use of singular they. But no matter, I'm not arguing that users should use gender neutral forms. I'm arguing that we shouldn't make such a fuss if they don't.
    – yivi
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:24
  • 3
    @yivi As a native speaker, I find many parts of English completely baffling!
    – George
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:28
  • 2
    @nvoigt As a native speaker, I find many parts of English completely baffling. English is just crazy but unfortunately it is the language of the internet. The best I can suggest is just use terms like OP, the user, the persons user name, when referring to them. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:28
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    As a guy, my tendency is to agree. However, I'm not on the receiving end of the wrong pronoun in every single interaction I have, every day of my entire online life. I completely understand why the "it's not a big deal" argument only makes some people more mad. It is a big deal if you are consistently faced with it every day of your life. I think people would have a little more sympathy if they understood this. Yes, it's easy to correct somebody's use of the wrong pronoun once. It probably gets tiring by the millionth time, hence the push to default to gender neutral.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:29
  • @nvoigt that's totally what I've started to realise we need to educate both the native and non-native English speakers, so we realise there's no disrespect intended
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:32
  • 5
    @meagar I mostly agree, and that's why I say that I prefer the use of gender neutral pronouns, and that I disagree with the resistance to use them. But I can't agree that posts like this question are the right approach to effect change. It's also true that I'm not offering an alternative solution either...
    – yivi
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:32
  • 2
    @yivi <not serious>I got a rather radical alternative solution: Change the english language so that "he" is the gender-neutral term. </not serious> Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:34
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    @meagar I can offer my own experience as a guy who often is misgendered (that freaking how I met your mother show...). It's not in every single interaction but it's frequent enough, especially since I deal with a lot of people only via email. Maybe it's my thick skin, but it honestly doesn't change anything. I know it's an honest mistake and gently correct the person
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:36
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    @André I find that idea completely insensitive and backwards looking. But we are all entitled to our own opinions. Still, my answer only stands in the context of the question asked (where I disagree that Cerbrus' use of "he" is a case of sexism that needs to be stamped out), it's not supposed to be the starting point of a debate about language and gender issues. (Sorry, I assumed it was a serious suggestion, since I heard it before; I'm leaving this comment here anyway so the thread makes some sense)
    – yivi
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:36
  • Fixed my previous comment Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:38
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    @AndréKool Good edit. Sarcasm does not play well on the Internet :p
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:38
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    Compared to my native language, English is very clear with pronouns because the words themselves don't have a grammatical gender. I just wanted to point out that many people don't use neutral gender pronouns because they aren't intuitive and aren't necessarily taught well. Not using them is not an intentional act.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:38
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    I've been using the singular they for my entire life. Was quite surprised when I found out there was a large section of the populace that thought it was grammatically incorrect. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:41
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    @yivi haha yeah, no way us English would ever do that
    – George
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:43
7

So many problems are solved quite easily by folks, well talking to each other.

As someone allegedly ESL, I use the singular they because, well, we use it in my native language. Lots of native speakers don't.

If you get someone's gender wrong, a polite correction "hey, I'm actually a she!" works great, and "Oh, sorry!" suffices.

I don't think the intent was sexism at all, unless someone intentionally and consistently chooses to misgender you, and folks here seem... angry at each other for some reason, which makes it worse.

I don't think this in any way reflects any sort of systematic sexism, just... a lot of grumpiness

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    ESL means ... what?
    – user9455968
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:55
  • @LutzHorn English as a second language
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:57
  • @YvetteColomb So I am ESL, too. Good to know :) Thanks for the help.
    – user9455968
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:58
  • @LutzHorn I've only today realised how many misunderstandings are caused by language differences
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:02
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    @YvetteColomb, which is exactly why we should get over our hang up on trying to read the supposed intent of someone's language, and instead just look to the most basic (and charitable) meaning.
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:07
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    @YvetteColomb Language and culture differences, yes. I think I am primarily irritated by the lack of any attempt by SO/SE to include this as a major aspect into the discussion about being nice and being welcoming. SO/SE is, at least for us users, an international platform, not a US site for people sharing US values and views on society and good manners. The study blogged about a few days ago increases this irritation: Done by an US company asking US citizens. I don't feel represented and have a hard time accepting the conclusions. Inclusiveness must have an international POV.
    – user9455968
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:09
  • @StephenRauch It's easier to give someone the benefit of the doubt when they don't dig their heels in on causing that doubt in the first place. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:10
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    @LutzHorn I spoke tamil in my early life cause my parents felt it would ensure we had deep roots to our own culture. I leant to speak english from cartoons... which resulted in a little singaporean/tamil kid speaking english with a yosamite sam accent.... I got better ;p Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:12
  • “I’m the hootinst, tootinist, shootinist bobtail wildcat in the west!” Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:20
  • @LutzHorn I entirely agree
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:23
2

We should make an effort to use gender-neutral pronouns.

Tech has some major inclusivity issues. That's .. not what I've come here to debate. If someone helps you, and your default not even thinking about it way of showing appreciation is saying:

Thanks man!

.. it can reinforce that because the person helping you is assumed to be technically competent, it's also assumed that they're a man. I can quite literally fill your inbox with stories from my coworkers alone on how rampant this is, and how awful it makes them feel, even though they know no malice is intended.

At the same time, well, times are changing. That means people need time to change, too, and demonizing folks isn't the best way to get them on board. So you do have to assume the best of intent and evidence that by gently correcting them:

... I may be many things, but 'man' isn't one of them.

We're in this together, so try to be gentle with each other. That means not being dismissive of hurt feelings when you forget and say whatever pops into your head, and it also means not biting off heads that sometimes succumb to bias that folks have lived with for years and accidentally produce the incorrect pronoun.

Alternatively, people have perfectly good fool-proof nouns: their display names :) Try that if in doubt.

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    Or one can just take "Thanks man!" as how it's intended: An exclamation of appreciation. Don't read too much into the "gender" of what's being said. Look at what's actually being said.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:00
  • 8
    @Cerbrus If I go around calling everyone on this site she/her/woman, do you think people would look past the "gender"? Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:04
  • 9
    @Cerbrus You're going to reach a point where how you intend it gets even further from how it's received. You can, at your option, look at the value of clinging to it then - I'm not here to say. But I will remark on how folks maintain such a tight grip on the simplest of things, it amazes me. I know you don't mean any ill will and I'm going to be the last person to lecture you, but .. wow, this is a ton of emotional effort over something incredibly easy to change.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:06
  • 19
    @Epodax As a woman - someone who gets called "sir" by users on the network all the time - It hurts. It may seem minor when you're not the one getting hit by it and I try to shrug it off as much as I can... but that repeated implied assumption of "male-ness"... even when I have a username that cues lots of people towards "female" and I have "She/her" on my profile... It's hard.
    – Catija
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:06
  • 9
    @Cerbrus why would you assume Bill is doing it intentionally - other than by dint of announcing it here first? If they started doing it without the announcement would you make the same assumption?
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:07
  • 6
    @Cerbrus To validate that, then you have to say that you get to decide what should or shouldn't cause them pain and .. you see what I mean here? All the hurt is on their part, all the effort needed is on your part, there's only one direction those gears can constructively turn.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:10
  • 10
    @Cerbrus Can we focus on what's at hand, which is simply agreeing that shortening "Thanks man!" to simply "Thanks" would be really helpful to a lot of people, and why you are so opposed to something so easy that could be so impactful for .. feeling that they simply aren't entitled to take offense? That just rings a little nuts to me.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:13
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    And even then, that doesn't give anyone the right to call someone using "he" a "sexist". You can't be that hurt by a incorrect pronoun that it's okay to verbally attack a well-meaning user.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:13
  • 10
    @Cerbrus It's going to, as time progresses, be more broadly ascribed to sexism. What's actually there is implicit bias that has turned into muscle memory. Look, I respect you, I don't want to get into a protracted argument with you or have you think less of me, but I can only ask for you to have a think about it over your favorite cold beverage of choice. I'm asserting that it's one of the easiest ways to proactively make our site (and industry) more inclusive, and that more inclusive is better. You might feel like it's a precedence you're just not comfortable with [1/2]
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:16
  • 9
    .... but maybe, just take a few hours and think about it? I'm not judging, I'm not preaching, I'm just .. dumbfounded .. at how emotionally invested folks have become into what turns out to be really small changes. But maybe, like I said, you don't see them as really small - I respect your views, I've just offered mine. [2/2]
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:18
  • 4
    @Catija "heads that sometimes succumb to bias that folks have lived with for years and accidentally produce the incorrect pronoun." - Seems to hint this, but, don't get me wrong here, I work most of my day, when I get home and relax, I don't want to have to think about every single sentence I write because someone might get hurt, that would kill me from stress, I struggle enough with remembering how some of the English words are spelled / how the sentences are constructed (As perhaps evident by this comment), I just want to relax, but that doesn't mean I'm biased against women.
    – Epodax
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:19
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    @yivi: No, that'd make it much more complicated. (police state / thought police). Don't attribute meaning to pronouns where it wasn't intended!
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:20
  • 14
    @Cerbrus You declare that misgendering people is fine because you don't intend it, you don't think of it at all, I get that - it's easy to make a thoughtless mistake not meaning to cause harm. Where that starts to fall apart is that you are now very aware of it and are determined to intentionally continue. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:24
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    To be as laconic as possible, I need to try to get us from "Stack Overflow says I'm not entitled to feel bad about people assuming I'm male" to "Stack Overflow doesn't always get it right, but they recognize the problem and try." -- That would be a huge improvement.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:55
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    I think people are probably starting to suffer from, "inclusion exhaustion". The idea is good, and I genuinely believe people want to work towards being more inclusive. But all the debates, arguments, and sometimes militant insistence on specific language drains people. There are people that are feeling their way towards being more inclusive, and when you encounter people like the asker...they retreat. Even when you know it's for a good cause, seeing that cause as a hostile, "cater to me, now!" message, just hardens opposition. It's exhausting to even try, so that's pretty detrimental.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 15:30
-15

As I'm part of, if not entirely responsible for, this particular problem.

var genderDebate = new GenderDebate (causedByMe);

It started as this:

I knew the OP was a woman, but didn't know if she'd be OK with me publicly disclosing that. So I made a comment.

enter image description here

enter image description here

In hindsight I handled this poorly and it ended up in Cerbrus and I have a chat, we were upset, I took a time out, Jon Clements kindly helped out, so Cerbrus could have an easier day.

I was demanding and authoritative, although my "intentions" started off as mediocre good, it was a totally unnecessary debacle.

I then waited for the right time. (this post) and apologised to Cerbrus.

enter image description here

I doubled the problem it by discussing it with TelKitty (she's a friend of mine). Which ultimately led to this meta post. I honestly didn't think our conversation would make it to meta, but I need to learn boundaries and keep my mod stuff away from my personal life.

I understand one thing. TelKitty has concerns about the site that haven't been expressed well in her previous meta post. As I know her, I understand clearly what she is attempting to articulate (as we've discussed it) and I can see the ham sandwich that's resulted due to ESL (English as a second language) and just being human and failing to communicate well.

The other thing I've learnt and this it the big one.

Language differences cause so much miscommunication

I had private discussions with mods from other sites, plus mods from our site and discovered something I should have realised sooner.

Essentially it's mentioned in the comments here:

... We don't have a "gender-neutral" pronoun, either. That's why it feels weird to me, to use "they". Cerbrus

and

If I have to call a table a 'she', it makes me awkward to call a person an 'it'.... I understand the whole gender neutral thing.... It just doesn't come to mind before 'he' does.... (And they actually, in French, is a plural 'he'. Unless you have a group composed of only women, at which point you use the plural 'she'.... I know, French is weird) Patrice

Whereas for native English speakers, the use of they and their are considered gender neutral. "he" was widely accepted in authorship of books, but this has gradually been replaced by dividing up the use of "she" and "he" or using a singular "they".

For people who's native tongue doesn't allow for gender neutral nouns, it would be difficult indeed. In English, the only nouns that are not gender neutral are species with gender, and even then many domestic animals will be referred to as "it". So what appears to be an easy step to some, is indeed a strange step for someone others.

This difference is something worth highlighting in our new code of conduct.

I guess the thing I've taken from this, is to be tolerant and mindful of how I interact with people.

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    Note that this mess started with Telkitty dragging me into a chatroom, where she immediately called me ignorant... As you realized, never discuss moderator actions with other users.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:26
  • @Cerbrus just to clarify, it was all on the public record, I didn't disclose any private mod info. Either way, I shouldn't have discussed it.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:28
  • 3
    Then how did telkitty know to ping me, specifically?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:29
  • @Cerbrus she saw you in the lounge and people followed us to that chat room.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:30
  • I wasn't in there... Have been in the past, but wasn't for the last few days...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:32
  • @Cerbrus hmm I was on the phone to her and she said you were in the lounge. Could be a miscommunication, I may have misunderstood when she saw you. I told her about our comments, that's what I did that was wrong. Drew her attention to it. She could see them, on a deleted post, but may not have looked.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:33
  • 2
    ... Just promise me one thing: When there is some kind of gender-related issue, and you see my name, let someone else handle it.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:35
  • @Cerbrus deal! and that's what the other mods said, that's also what I meant as my fault. I started it. You weren't doing any wrong actually, as you didn't know who she was.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:36
  • 5
    Thx for realizing it is different with the ESL sometimes too :). I really mean no disrespect, but to me, calling someone an "it" or a "they" makes it sound like I'm calling them an object... which, in French, makes it WAY worse than a simple misgendering :). I truly try to use the gender neutral as much as possible. I found actually that when I'm at work (English environment), it comes easier for me. When I'm home (even if I do speak a lot of English to teach the kid, it's predominantly French), it comes WAY harder.
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:40
  • 4
    @Patrice Just a heads up - in English calling someone an "it" is likewise way worse than simple misgendering - it's completely dehumanizing. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:46
  • 5
    @Paul oh, I know! I think I didn't come in clearly here (I am thinking in Frenglish now.... which makes it hard to express myself -_-). What I meant I guess is that "they" to me, IS "it". At least the closest French translation of "they", and how it's to be used makes it equivalent, in my mind, to "it". Which is why it's so hard for me to use and remember these pronouns. I understand people don't want to be offended, but I try to walk the line of "being respectful of gender and gender issues" and "JESUS PAT DON'T CALL PEOPLE IT".... it's not an easy line to walk sometimes :P
    – Patrice
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:48
  • @Patrice they is like the plural of male or mixed company. Easy way to remember it, it also represents a singular person of unknown gender.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:51
  • As someone with a poor level of English, like most of SO user, when someone use a plural for gender neutral. It can be really hard. The missunderstanding range from this user is know to have personality disorder, or this user is multiple user using the same account or I don't understand who he is talking to, comment must have been deleted. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:51
  • @DragandDrop yeh, I think it's an issue we need to address, not a big deal kind of way, but slot it in somewhere to increase our tolerance of one another all around.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:53
  • 1
    @Patrice Okay, just wanted to be clear :) (And yeah, language has really weird and interesting effects on how we think. Which, as an aside, is kinda why this topic is more important than a lot of people seem to realize.) Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 15:14