39

On this question, I posted a comment which went roughly along the lines of:

Consider learning the basics of PHP first before using a framework.

and I was confused as to why it was deleted. I'm unsure what reason it was flagged as / or if a mod came across the comment and just deleted it. My intention was never to be rude, I was being genuine based on the code that the OP provided:

$data = UserTracker::create([
  if(Auth::check()) {
    'user_id' => Auth::user()->id,
  }
// rest of it...

They tried to nest an if statement within an array which wouldn't have happened if they knew the basics of PHP.

The OP responded terribly where they went off on a rant and were vulgar, as a result I flagged their comment and it was removed. Thereafter, I noticed that my original comment was removed too for some reason. My comment had an upvote, which doesn't mean that it isn't deletable but it signifies that at least one other person thought I was giving sound advice.

To prevent something like this happening again, I'm curious as to what was the reason of the removal of my comment?

20
  • 9
    Just a guess but maybe it was deleted because of the following (rude) comment of the OP. Commented May 17, 2018 at 13:09
  • 9
    It seems solid advice, but it may have come across as haughty/belittling. I for one would not have deleted that. Commented May 17, 2018 at 13:10
  • 1
    @S.L.Barth any suggestions on how to rephrase it to make it less haughty/belittling? BTW, as mentioned, that was never my intention, that was the wording that came in to my head at the time.
    – Script47
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 13:11
  • 5
    I think your comment comes off as a little snarky which is the exact opposite of the recent be nice blog post Commented May 17, 2018 at 13:13
  • 3
    @WhatsThePoint I'm completely open to suggestions on how it should be rephrased.
    – Script47
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 13:13
  • 5
    I dont think there is any point in jumping to conclusion without knowing the entire conversation (only a Mod can tell). For all we know it is a generic advice and may have been removed simply because it was no longer needed for that question
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 13:14
  • 4
    Hm... maybe this one. "Your problem arises because of basic PHP errors. You will find it easier if you first learn PHP itself, before adding frameworks." Commented May 17, 2018 at 13:15
  • 2
    @S.L.Barth thanks for that, I guess, the habit of being concise was my downfall here but I've really come to understand / adore SO's lack of fluff when getting a point across.
    – Script47
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 13:17
  • 2
    I'm not familiar on the technology, but maybe something like "unfortunately you cant add an if statement into an array attribute, which is supposed to be taught at a basic level, I recommend you cover a tutorial first before adding any extra frameworks" Commented May 17, 2018 at 13:18
  • 1
    @PetterFriberg sadly, no, I did not miss that blog post. However, I did not think that this comment would be interpreted in the way you suggested.
    – Script47
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 14:14
  • 1
    Well OP did, you saw the response and they flagged it, @Script47 consider to learn how to be nice before you comment :P (That's naturally a joke, but maybe you can see it OP's way). Anyway why do you care that it was deleted, if it did upset OP it can just as well be delete and you can just move on to next. Commented May 17, 2018 at 14:16
  • 7
    Whenever I see someone (in the c# tag) out in the deep end and who is obviously incapable of swimming, I usually leave a comment similar to "Grab a copy of CLR Via C# and read it. It'll take you a day, and you'll be 1000% better off than you are right now."
    – user1228
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 14:50
  • 1
    @Script47 nice that you are back! (I was getting worried), do note that I understand your good faith in the comment you made, I was just trying to make you understand how OP could read it and what moderators will do when they respond to flags --> delete the comments and "move on". Commented May 17, 2018 at 15:06
  • 2
    @Polygnome It is not even necessary to assume the OP is a "beginner" nor is there a need to state education suggestions. Stating facts about the PHP syntax is sufficient. Consider that more and more, programmers are first learning new, 5th+ generation languages that may support constructs that look utterly incorrect to a expert from the past or of a particular language, but which might seem like a natural, obvious element of any language to someone else.
    – C Perkins
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 22:39
  • 5
    @CPerkins You can be a beginner at PHP even while having 20+ years of programming experience in other languages. I think you'd be hrd pressed to find anyone who has done any serious work in PHP who'd make such a mistake. So I think my choice of word is fair. Furthermore, my experience shows that it is beginners to programming in general who ask such questions, because after having learned the first two or so languages you get good t learning new syntax and more importantly, how to fix syntax errors without asking such basic questions (obscure edge cases nonwithstanding).
    – Polygnome
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 23:59

3 Answers 3

46

I didn't delete your comment, but I probably would have, while responding to the rude/abusive flags on the OP's follow-up comment.

Your comment was directed to a specific person, who took it very negatively and left a very angry reply. The person you'd address the comment to had read it, and rejected its content, and responded, so there was absolutely no value in leaving your initial comment around, even though I don't believe there was anything wrong with it specifically. It wasn't useful in clarifying the post, and "Consider learning the basics of PHP before using a framework" hardly contains any particularly useful or important information worth retaining.

Also, deleting the OP's response while leaving your comment in place would only have escalated things, and possibly prompted OP to respond again.

My comment had a +1, which doesn't mean that it isn't deletable but it signifies that at least one other person thought I was giving sound advice.

That's not really the basis by which we judge whether comments should be retained. They are inherently temporary, and when they've served their purpose they should be removed. Your advice had been heard, there was no further value in retaining the comment.

It's worth noting that comment deletion happens all the time and doesn't count against your account in any way. There is no automatic comment-ban, you cannot lose the ability to comment.

12
  • 9
    hmm OP has been suspended do you care to explain if it is related? Commented May 17, 2018 at 14:29
  • 3
    @PetterFriberg We typically don't discuss suspensions except with the subject of the suspension.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 14:31
  • 1
    Ok, but reading your answer we need to assume that it is not related to this single comment, this be-nice story is a learning curve for all of us. Commented May 17, 2018 at 14:33
  • 25
    I'd say it is very much relevant here. OP's question and your answer suggests that while their comment may have been blunt, it wasn't straight-out offensive ("I didn't delete your comment, but I probably would have" etc.). So if they got suspended for this same event, it raises some concerns that an abusive response from an asker can get someone suspended in today's climate. Commented May 17, 2018 at 14:34
  • 5
    I wasn't directly involved with any of this, but we're discussing it with the parties involved. Remain calm, do not panic :)
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 14:36
  • 4
    OP is unsuspended now. Does that mean Mistakes Have Been Made? I hope we'll get an explanation:) Commented May 17, 2018 at 14:47
  • 5
    @AndrasDeak It was most definitely a mistake. The OP of the question I linked responded in the original question (instead of the meta SO post) and rather than responding to them (as I knew it'd escalate the situation) I flagged it for moderators attention, next thing the post had been locked, my flag was helpful and I was suspended. That blog post seems to have people worked up on what is being "rude". See my post here as I wasn't sure what else to do: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310320/…
    – Script47
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 14:50
  • 4
    @AndrasDeak - I've tried to address this here: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/368093/19679 , which I hope better clarifies what happened.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 15:26
  • In short, the comment was RTFM (in a modern form)? Commented May 18, 2018 at 22:58
  • 4
    @PeterMortensen no, it wasn’t. Words and tone matter. “You should read the docs” and “read the fucking manual” are not equivalent things to say to somebody.
    – user229044 Mod
    Commented May 18, 2018 at 23:08
  • 1
    "hardly contains any particularly useful or important information worth retaining." Nailed it. Commented May 20, 2018 at 3:20
  • People demanding an explanation on OP's suspension (or upvoting said demand), while casually mentioning the "be-nice policy" and "today's climate", when it's been stated that it's not related, just want a new episode of SOSO ([Meta] Stack Overflow Soap Opera) while they go grab some popcorn.
    – xDaizu
    Commented May 23, 2018 at 7:06
14

First and foremost, I do not think you should be worrying about "preventing something like this happening again". Comments are deleted all the time, en masse. Treating them as ephemeral content really helps, IMO.

The specific of why was this comment removed only the mod who removed can tell. But comment removal happening so often, it may not be productive to pursue the specific reason.

I do not think your comment was rude, and I suppose that wouldn't be the reason for its removal. But I can imagine that since your comment triggered a rather strong response from the OP, its removal could be seen as a way to pacify the conversation, and preventing the situation to escalate further.

Once you think on comments as ephemeral content, removing them even if they are inherently benign makes sense if for whatever reason these comments starts off a heated, non-constructive argument.

As for the argument of your comment not being constructive, I could offer an alternative phrasing as:

Frameworks have steeper learning curve and make a lot of assumptions about prior knowledge and common practices. I recommend you getting a firmer grip on PHP basics before you begin using a fully fledged framework.

It also has the weakness of not directly addressing the OPs problem, but I'd argue that you are not necessarily mandated to fix their problem in a comment.

2
  • 2
    Understood, so, in an analogous terms, if my comment was a question, it would be closed as "too broad"?
    – Script47
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 14:09
  • 1
    @Script47 I think that that is a very reasonable view. While the the mood after that blog-post is rather weird, I suppose it is not a bad thing if as a consequence we spend more time trying to be explicitly more polite when writing comments.
    – yivi
    Commented May 17, 2018 at 15:57
-3

I usually flag comments like "Learn xxxx first ...", because they do not help the person who comes to SO for support. Instead, it discourages. From a new user's point of view, an answer like the above does not provide anything useful and surely does not solve the problem he/she came here for.

Like, how do I have to learn Java first, if my problem is about Java....

As of how to rephrase the answer to make it sound more polite, I don't think there is a way. My recommendation would be to refrain from answers that are not aimed at providing a helpful solution, don't give them at all and, instead, go directly to the technical part.

If you don't have an answer, don't give one.

When you answer a question, you could also ask yourself first, if any part of it could be misinterpreted or found offensive. Especially new users may be easily discouraged, if their first contact with SO is found sort of negative.

3
  • It wasn't and answer, it was a comment. 'you could also ask yourself first, if any part of it could be misinterpreted or found offensive.' - This seems like somewhat of a slippery slope, I mean, no doubt someone will find something offensive, I don't think it's possible to ever come to the conclusion that no-one will ever find my post / comment / answer 100% offence free. Meaning, I could say I found this answer of yours offensive, does that mean you should delete it? Again, I'm not singling you out, merely pointing a flaw in your logic.
    – Script47
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 17:28
  • 'Like, how do I have to learn Java first, if my problem is about Java....' - No, you misunderstood the original question, the OP was using a framework, Laravel, which can be quite daunting for a new programmer and their mistake suggested that they were in fact, a new programmer. That's why I suggested what I suggested. What I preached was something that I personally practiced.
    – Script47
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 17:32
  • 1
    "Especially new users may be easily discouraged <...>" If a user is easily discouraged from asking questions on SO, that's not necessarily a bad thing. If they realise they can get more from a language's tutorial / documentation, then asking a question on SO might well have been the wrong place to start.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented May 20, 2018 at 21:28

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