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I read Jay Hanlon's post on Welcoming and, in spite of a number of problematic mistakes, I think I understand what Stack Overflow is trying to say, but I do not think they know how to say it. In fact, I believe it would take an impossible mastery to explain it in a conventional way that makes every mind able to accept/appreciate/understand exactly what they are intending to say.

That is why I propose that they explain it in an unconventional way.

We are a community of computer scientists, and as such, we can appreciate the latest science of modeling how the brain works in order to create deep learning algorithms. Why not apply that same understanding and appreciation to real brains?

Instead of (in addition to?) issuing a general, ambiguous, and fuzzy statement about what "not nice" means and that we all just need to be more welcoming, why not post a comprehensive (to a science) assortment of well crafted examples to train our brains exactly what you mean by "not nice" and "welcoming" so that minds can be trained through many examples to understand what it is that you mean.

To go an important step further, hire a team of psychologists who are good with words to explain the academic nuances in layman's terms how and why each example provided causes humans to feel unwelcome.

If Stack Overflow really wants to get serious about solving this problem, they should take utilitarian measures: Index these examples and make them something that can be referred to as reference material whenever someone does not understand how or why they just violated someone's feelings. A "moderator of moderators" culture may need to happen for a while and they may need to point to these examples over and over again until the community "gets" what they are trying to show them.

If Stack Overflow does these things, their community of technically minded people will understand them. Do not read any insult toward anyone into this, but understand: To get a technical community on board with understanding people's feelings, one must reduce human feeling to something mechanical that they can understand in technical terms. And it needs to be done methodically with many examples.

If Stack Overflow is going to promote this issue to #1 or #2 on its agenda instead of #3 for their staff and they are going to hire specialized staff to make it happen, then they need to implement something very clever (as clever as Stack Overflow itself) and they need to do it right. They are going to need to go to their roots and do something that is outside of the box and they are going to need to do it with potent efficacy, not half-baked.

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    cough meta.stackoverflow.com/q/366867/476 cough
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:37
  • @deceze - The discussion you linked to does not include the quality of turning these examples into an actual feature that is built into the site.
    – OCDev
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:46
  • I'm not sure you'd want to officially build something into the site that highlights bad behaviour. Sounds like a weird idea. But I suppose that's your point, something outside the box…
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:48
  • @deceze - Stack Overflow itself was a weird idea until it became normal.
    – OCDev
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:51
  • Let's call it The Pillory™?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:53
  • @deceze - Okay. You first. :p (j/k)
    – OCDev
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 10:55
  • I suggested something like this a while back: Show examples of good and bad questions
    – Pekka
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:01
  • @Pekka웃 - Yes, you have good ideas for examples about good and bad questions. Maybe some of those ideas can be brought over into this context for training the community what SO means by good and bad behavior.
    – OCDev
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:11

2 Answers 2

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You make the classic mistake of thinking that social sciences can be studied with the same tools as "hard" sciences like physics and engineering.

If someone where to create a list of examples it would simply devolve into an endless debate about the validity of those examples and who is being the snowflake.

It is also likely to create problems for those involved in the examples.

Rather than fixating on this, why not concentrate on the solutions being proposed and evaluating their practicality and effectiveness?

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    How can anyone evaluate the effectiveness of proposed solutions when the problem has not yet been defined? Days have passed and I still don't have a clue, even in fairly broad terms, what behaviour the staff wants us to crack down on. The efforts to provide examples in response to deceze's question are the closest thing to an answer to that question that I've yet seen.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:56
  • Who asked you to crack down on anything? The blog post certainly didn't. You are confused because you can't separate reality from your imagination.
    – shogged
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 11:58
  • "Who asked you to crack down on anything?" - The main call to action in the blog post - at least as I understand it, and evidently everyone understood it differently - was "let’s start by working with the community and our community managers to start flagging and deleting unkind comments now". In other words (per my reading), the main action expected from us was to go forth and purge from the site a class of comments that are not "rude" (as we previously defined the term for the purpose of flagging), but merely "unkind". I don't know what this new class of comments looks like.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:00
  • You don't understand the word "unkind"?
    – shogged
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:13
  • I'm pretty sure I understand the word - including its vagueness - in ordinary English, but no, I don't think the bounds of what we're supposed to consider "unkind" for the purpose of summary deletion have been clearly defined. Reading the word broadly, both my comments and yours on this post (including this one) warrant deletion - they're certainly not what I'd call friendly. Is that the sort of crackdown on "unkindness" that the company wants, or am I applying a perversely overbroad reading? I don't know, and I don't see how any of us can know if they're not willing to show us examples.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:23
  • You are fine with "rude", but "unkind" is too vague and needs quantifying for you? I could give you an example of someone questioning a user's mental health, but I'd need to anonymize it and it's not clear how to do that effectively.
    – shogged
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:01
  • No, I'm not claiming that the word "rude", in plain English, is more objective than the word "unkind". They're both vague. But we've had literally years of moderation and Meta discussions to establish what the line is at which a comment is considered "rude or abusive" from a moderation perspective. We have equivalent examples or guidance about what this newly forbidden category of unkind-but-not-rude comments is supposed to consist of.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 14:40
  • Where is this list of example rude material? Maybe we can use it as a template.
    – shogged
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:17
  • 1
    Looking down the results of meta.stackoverflow.com/search?q=rude+flag turns up a bunch of examples of the merits of particular rude flags being weighed by the community and by mods.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:33
  • So why not introduce an "unkind" flag and discuss it in the same way?
    – shogged
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 16:13
  • Because I think our standards for deleting content based upon incivility are already about right, and that if we want to change them we should do so by gradually, incrementally broadening what we consider the "rude or abusive" flag to cover after Meta discussions that show examples of the sort of content that should be deleted. I don't want a new flag, or a sudden radical broadening of the "Rude" standard, because I fear that it will result in lots of valuable content being irreversibly purged from the site.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 16:45
-7

People come to Stack Overflow because it's a fun competitive learning experience. But what you're suggesting is basically Stack Overflow Documentation. Building reference documentation, or making people read reference documentation, or being told to read reference documentation are all seriously not fun.

The welcoming problem is about old hands not being interested in newcomer questions. This means new programmers are shut out. The people who do continue to ask questions are arselickers who are willing to bend to the old hand's rules. Bascially, SO is turning away good programmers, and welcoming fake programmers. This results in ever declining question quality.

Being welcoming to programmers is as important as turning non-programmers away. New programmers should be allowed to have fun too. Given time, they'll learn and join and compete with the expert crew.

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    I don't think the asker is asking for SO Documentation. The way I read the question, it's specifically about creating a reference for what is nice and what isn't. Not a reference for technical knowledge. Commented May 1, 2018 at 12:09
  • 1
    @S.L.Barth: Wow, yeah, I read the question again and you're right :)
    – Andomar
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:59

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