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The concept of a minimal, complete, and verifiable example is actually pretty tricky. It's entirely learnable, and most experienced Stack Overflow users have probably internalized it, but it's still probably more complicated than the things most people are here to ask questions about.

The help page is longer than most answers, and it still doesn't cover all the nuances; for example, it's not obvious how much of the original purpose of your program needs to be visible in a MCVE, and feedback on this aspect can be confusing ("not minimal" when a user keeps too much context and "why are you even doing this" when they discard it).

A better intro experience for new users can help with this, as can a better "ask question" workflow, but those only come into play once a user is probably already frustrated by another problem. I think people would learn more effectively with an earlier introduction.

Can we do anything to start introducing people to the concept before they even want to ask a question? They wouldn't have to learn it on that first introduction, but just having exposure can help.

Perhaps do something so when people come to Stack Overflow through Google and see a MCVE in an existing question, the MCVE traits and their benefits are more obvious? Or even something that doesn't involve the core Q&A site, if the SO team can find some other project to work it into? As individuals, we can spread the idea to our colleagues as a useful skill for solo debugging, but there are limits to how much we can do as individuals.

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  • Tangentially-related recent discussion: Could we add a tag-specific MCVE page?. Making the OPs job of creating a MCVE more understandable in a given context should help.
    – Shepmaster
    Commented May 2, 2018 at 19:57
  • 2
    Bring back the duck! I find that most of my problems can be solved by starting to type up a question, then realising an unexplored avenue of solution partway through, then reaching enlightenment, before actually posting it.
    – Miral
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 2:18
  • 1
    @Miral Nope, if you'd write your question like "My code doesn't work, please help me", it won't hep you to reach the enlightenment.
    – Teemu
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 9:03
  • @user2357112 I always found this page stackoverflow.com/help/mcve a bit boring in its layout. Proposition here to make it Q&A instead?
    – Basj
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 19:46

3 Answers 3

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I like the idea, but I think this will be hard (if not impossible) to do in practice.

Writing an MCVE requires a lot of skills and willingness:

  • skill to debug an issue;
  • skill to realize what context can be left away;
  • skill to present the MCVE within enough context in the question (but not too much!);
  • willingness to take the time to do all of the above.

If a user is able to do the above, they are able to write a good question. It won't be a perfect correlation, but I'm convinced that there will be a very strong correlation between the two.

Thus, your question is essentially:

Can we teach new users how to ask good questions before they even have a question?

At that point, I believe we are back to proposals such as introducing a template, or:

We’re planning to test a new “beginner” ask page that breaks the question box into multiple fields – one for each of the key things answerers need to help: (...)
latest blog post

Time will tell if that works.

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  • 3
    I don't expect people to completely learn the concept on their first introduction; I just want to introduce it. I think people would have an easier time when they actually try to learn it if they've been exposed to the concept before. Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:31
  • Ah, I see. It may be hard to make the concept stick, given that it is only of interest to users when they have a question. Would definitely be interesting to somehow introduce it earlier though :-) Commented May 1, 2018 at 8:39
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    People who go to the effort to write an MVCE in this way are the ones most likely to solve their problem prior actually posting the question as well. I can't help but wonder if this messes with our perceptions on how many people do have this skill.
    – Shadow
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 2:45
10

Writing an MCVE requires not just skill and willingness, as Just a student suggests, but also the knowledge that you need to acquire those skills in the first place.

We can't do anything for the unwilling (and frankly, that doesn't bother me). And it's hard to do anything for the unskilled, as Just a student suggests—it takes time and practice at least as much as guidance, if not more so.

But we can do something about people not even knowing there's a learning curve in the first place. And not knowing that writing MCVEs is a big part of that learning curve.

If the OP is suggesting giving the new user some examples of good MCVEs, and what makes them good, and why that's important—I think that could be valuable. If it can be tied into the "beginner's page", even better.

(I think this ties into a larger issue: SO should make it clearer to new users that writing a good question is hard. But that's probably off-topic for this question.)

2

It might be good to have additional help on the question page for those who have not asked a lot of questions. But that will take time to develop. In the mean time, those of us who have the experience should guide new questioners when bits and pieces are left out. Rather than down voting, use comments to request additional information. What OS and version? Which application server? Can you show me the code you tried? Did you get any errors? What did you expect to happen? etc. You might even have to remind them to edit the question rather than provide the information in comments. If a new questioner cares about an answer, they will provide the information. And repetition is key.

Think back to when you were first learning to ask questions. Maybe not here, but in any forum or list. It probably took a lot of tries to get it right, and maybe even now you don't always include everything someone might need to give you an answer. Maybe you are busy, maybe you are tired and frustrated, maybe you just leave out a critical piece of info because it's obvious, whatever the reason, even seasoned askers don't always ask perfect questions. So extend the new user some grace, and prompt them for what you need.

A good question is a good question wherever you ask it. The classic post about How to Ask Questions the Smart Way has been around much longer than SO. Read in, internalize it, and become a coach rather than a thorn. And, allow for the fact that some questioners just don't want to put forth the effort to ask a good question. It's ok to ignore them, just don't let them get under your skin.

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  • I totally agree, and I generally try to do this. But sometimes this can backfire: I recently saw an OP say (something like): "Stop interrogating me, just answer the question! If you don't know the answer, or don't want to help, go away and stop picking on me".
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 13:12
  • 2
    Yes, allow for the fact that some questioners just don't want to put forth the effort to ask a good question. It's ok to ignore them, just don't let them get under your skin. Commented May 3, 2018 at 13:29

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