34

Disclaimer: I have already seen the following questions which are related to, but not focused on, this one:

What caused me to ask here is this question: Why are multiple pre-increments allowed in C++ but not in C?

It has all what is needed to get flaming:

  • Asked by a low reputation points user
  • No language-lawyer tag (no surprise because of the above line)
  • Both C and C++ tags

But it is nevertheless about a subtle difference, and it got quite a nice answer - that happened to get a downvote, too...

What is interesting about this question is that the highest reputation points users (Bathsheba or Lundin) agree that it is a correct question - which is also my opinion - while the most abrasive comments come from lower reputation points users.

What is even worse, it that even after being edited by Bathsheba to become a good question following Stack Overflow rules, it still remains heavily downvoted.

My opinion is that we have educated users to flame any question with both C and C++ tags just because they are different languages. It is true that many question were asked with both tags with no good reasons (so the two referenced questions), but now even good questions get downvotes which is not how Stack Overflow is supposed to work.

I'm afraid not to be able to propose anything to solve that beyond a remark on the tag wikis explaining what questions deserve both tags, and collectively try to avoid too abrasive comments when a question should have only one. Because not doing so visibly prompts many user to downvote any question with both tags even when the question is good and both tags are relevant.

Of course this question is also relevant for Objective-C, which I did not initially include, because it was not used if referenced question and I do not use or know it.


Since I first asked this question, Batsheba has added another answer with a rationale (and not just standard quotes) for the different behaviour. IMHO a question that gets three answers, all of which are correct and two of which show really interesting points cannot be so bad.

23
  • 8
    The custom close reason that the question is about to be closed under - which is basically "unclear what you're asking" rewritten to be deliberately extra-disrespectful - is a nice extra cherry of objectionableness on top of the whole cake. Might as well have gone for "I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because hurr durr the asker is a big stupidhead"
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 10:45
  • 1
    I'm afraid not to be able to propose anything to solve that beyond a remark on the tag wikis explaining what questions deserve both tags I doubt that would fix anything tbh as an angular developer the amount of questions tagged with both angularjs and angular is very high even though the wiki has the sentence Do NOT use this tag for Angular 2 or later versions; instead, use the [angular] tag.
    – George
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 10:46
  • 1
    @George: my remark is the opposite: some question do deserve both tags and still receive downvotes et abrasive comments Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 10:50
  • 2
    Currently 33,034 questions tagged with [c] [c++]. (Possibly related: 16,552 questions tagged with [java] [javascript])
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 10:51
  • 2
    @SergeBallesta I know. I was saying nobody cares/reads the wiki entries well so it wouldn't be very effective
    – George
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 10:51
  • 14
    It could be getting downvoted because it's another "what would this random code that no sane person would write do" that happens to be seen by twice as many people.
    – PeterJ
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 11:03
  • 4
    I didn't react to multiple tags, but saw "yet another multiple ++ question", and would probably initially have downvoted just for that, had it not been double digits already. The question is also not about a programming problem the OP has, or about something practically useful for the rest of us. We do have the more obvious x+=2; that we don't have to ask questions about.
    – Bo Persson
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 11:36
  • 5
    @user167921 I wasn't. I came back after some time to find the question closed and edited. I'd also argue putting words in the poster's mouth isn't a good use of edits. It wasn't the question got polished, it got changed
    – Passer By
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 13:32
  • 1
    I'm still not seeing why a good question should be closed just because it's different from the original question. You seem to be misunderstanding what the point of closure is.
    – user167921
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 13:34
  • 10
    The downvote tool-tip says The question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful. and the description contained all of Why does the operation "++++i" work in C++ and not in C. Despite the edit by another user, it largely remains the same. Besides, the OP "code_dragon" hasn't responded to comments at all. Trust me, I considered none of the "flame" reasons you mentioned when I close voted. I thought SO expected question-askers to put at least some effort into their questions...
    – P.P
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 14:18
  • 1
    What about 'i+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++;', should we not have an explanation of that too? Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 15:17
  • 8
    @SergeBallesta And yet the question doesn't even contain the error message that C generates, or an explanation of why that error message is unclear to them (or why it's unclear to them why that doesn't apply to C++, or whatever it is they don't understand). So they haven't demonstrated that they've done the first steps that would be expected of someone in that situation.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 15:56
  • 4
    Re. edit "IMHO a question that gets 3 answers, all of which are correct and 2 of which show really interesting points cannot be so bad." - Non sequitur. Quality/correctness of answers can't determine the quality of the questions. In that case, SO community really don't need to have any sort of votes on questions: if a question receives decent answers, the question can automatically receive a certain percentage of up/down/close votes based on the quality of answers. I am astonished we are discussing the quality of that question which shows zero effort from OP and received 19 upvotes.
    – P.P
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 18:45
  • 3
    People could just be more matur... wait, what am I saying?! Ignore me. Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 7:46
  • 1
    whoever downvoted the question can see the downvoting backfired into heavy upvoting. That's why sometimes it's best not to add to downvotes, specially if there are already a lot of downvotes. That said, I think I could have answered the question & I didn't invent that, so the question is probably some kind of duplicate. Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 13:22

7 Answers 7

19

I don't think there's anything you can do really, save answering the question. I too had the knee-jerk reaction of just shrugging my shoulders and saying "different languages, so I wouldn't expect it to be the same".

Upon further recollection, I realized it's actually a neat intricate point that causes this difference in behavior. So answer I did. If a detailed, interesting answer can be provided (I hope that mine is), it should be given. No better way to say "this is worth answering", IMO.

9
  • You answered before I could. And as your answer was nice, I prefered to upvote it, instead of paraphrasing it . Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 11:08
  • @SergeBallesta - True (and thank you!). I mostly answered here to express the attitude I believe we should exhibit with such questions. Only thing we can do really. Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 11:11
  • "I realized it's actually a neat intricate point.." But still along the lines of "different languages" so they should not be expected to be the same. Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 8:42
  • 1
    I totally agree. If you can solve this issue then you might be our only hope for peace in the middle east. They have so much in common yet differ in small and subtle ways and each has a core group of fanatical followers full of religious fervor.
    – user7287311
    Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 8:47
  • @jam3st - I never planned on running for Israeli parliment, but thanks for the vote of confidence. Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 11:25
  • I didn't suggest you run for parliament and I certainly didn't mention a side. I believe the point is that there are fanatics on boths sides who might be impossible to please.
    – user7287311
    Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 12:34
  • @jam3st - You didn't visit my profile, did you? Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 12:43
  • Sorry to dissapoint you but I play the ball not the man. I don't see what relavence the profile has to the question at hand.
    – user7287311
    Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 20:51
  • @jam3st - You make a regional wisecrack and don't think a person's place of residence will affect their interpretation? That's dropping the ball. Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 21:40
14

You're attributing a lot of malice to people's behavior here that I think is completely unjustified. The assumption is being made that people DV/VTC this question solely because it was tagged and asked by a low rep user.

A more reasonable interpretation is that many people simply view this as a bad question because it's unclear what the question actually is. Yes, the two languages have different behavior. Is the question asking for the underlying reasoning behind the behavior difference? If so, Eric says it better than I could. These are fundamentally unanswerable questions to anybody's satisfaction. If the question is what is the specification that makes ++++i ill-formed in C? Then, that's just a question. What makes it well-formed in C++? That's just a question. Is there a meaningful question that asks for language specification from two different languages for the same expression? I'm really not sure that it is.

The question just isn't a good question. Suggesting that this opinion is malicious, or somehow conditioned due to multiple tagging, is worse.

5
  • I agree with you on one point, I cannot be sure of why people downvoted. But it currently got 23 downvotes. Ok, it may be because of the meta effect. I also know that you may find it poor when I find it good. But I often read both tags and really believe but some users have irrational reactions when they see both tags on same question. I took this question as an example because it got useful answers. And I also asked the question 1/ to make others think about that, and 2/ to know the opinion of the community... Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 16:21
  • 5
    @SergeBallesta It is bad question with +230 views. Only one in ten viewers decided that the question deserved a down-vote. Doesn't seem particularly skewed, IMO. I think that the "defensive" up-voting it is slightly more suspect in this case.
    – yivi
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 16:27
  • 6
    @SergeBallesta The question has gotten lots of comments explaining lots of different kinds of problems with it, and those comments have gotten lots of upvotes. None of those comments have been about the tagging. Your belief that a bunch of people are having an irrational reaction to the tags is an irrational reaction given how much evidence there is to the contrary.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 17:08
  • 2
    The thing here is that C++ inherits a whole of its behavior from C, and when it comes to operators in particular, the languages behave nearly identically, at least up to C++11. Why the prefix ++ operator would behave differently in this case is far, far from obvious. It is not easy to do this research on your own unless you are a veteran language lawyer. So a question asking about the difference between the two languages makes a whole lot of sense - such a question is a good and interesting question, and also afaik without duplicates. ->
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 7:55
  • If this what the question was originally asking or not, I am not sure. But dismissing it and saying that it cannot be anything but either a pure C question or a pure C++ question isn't true.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 7:55
11

You're just assuming that people are downvoting the question because it has both C and C++ tags. I see no evidence of that. No one is commenting about the tagging of the question (unless those comments were posted and deleted before I read the question), and there are lots of comments pointing out other problems with the question, suggesting that the downvotes are based on those other reasons.

For starters, the edit by the user that wasn't the post author made the question far worse. The original question was asking for an explanation of why a given snippet works in one language and not in another; it was effectively asking for the section of the language specs in each language that either prohibits or allows that snippet.

I personally wouldn't consider that first revision a particularly great question (partly because it's two questions in one, as it's combining, "Why is this valid C++?" and "Why is this invalid C?" into one question, and also because the latter is largely answered by looking at the compiler error you see when trying to compile it, which really should be in the question, with an explanation of why the error message is unclear or fails to accurately explain why the code isn't valid C code.

But the revision makes the question unclear. After the revision it could be interpreted as asking why the designers of C choose to make this code not valid, and why the designers of C++ choose to make it valid. The question has been made unclear as to whether it's asking that or for an explanation of what, in the specs, mades the snippet valid or invalid.

And for those that interpret the question as asking why it was designed the way it was, rather than for documentation on why the exhibited behavior is correct, it poses new problems. Asking people why someone else choose to do what they did is simply not a good question on SO, as it ends up with opinion based answers, rather than factual answers. Lots of people find the quesitons more "fun", because thinking about how you should design a language is fun for a lot of people (hence I suspect why someone edited the question from what the author actually asked into that) but it simply doesn't make for a good question on SO.

18
  • 1
    The excessive downvoting and the compulsive counter-upvoting make it seem like an absolutely BRILLIANT question, one for the ages. ...I don't really think it's that good.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 15:25
  • 4
    @usr2564301 Most people seem to be reading it as a subjective question. Lots of people find those questions fun, and entertaining, and so they upvote them. Lots of other people recognize that they're not really useful, even if they're fun, and that they don't belong on the site, so they downvote them. As a result, subjective/primarily opinion based questions tend to attract lots of both upvotes and downvotes.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 15:30
  • First comments contain [it's like comparing] Japanese and Chinese, C != C++, Why should different languages behave identical? which are the common comments for questions erroneouly have C and C++ tags. Then came comments from Brian, Batsheba and me saying the question was not so bad, but most of downvotes were already there. That's the reason why I still believe that most of downvotes are for that reason. Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 15:33
  • 3
    @SergeBallesta That comment doesn't make any sense as a way of saying that the question shouldn't have both tags. The question is asking why the two language are different. The comment is asking why they should both be the same, in other words, the comment is saying that asking why they're different isn't a sensible question. That's not saying it shouldn't be tagged with both C and C++, it's demonstrating an understanding of what the question is asking and explaining why they think that's not a good question.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 15:35
  • 9
    @SergeBallesta Of someone asked, "Why is Ni Hao valid Chinese but not valid Japanese?" and tagged with with "Japanese" and "Chinese" tags, and someone commented with, "Why should the language be identical? It's like comparing C and C++." that's not a way of saying it shouldn't have both tags; it's a way of saying, the actual question itself is just a bad question.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 15:37
  • 3
    C++ is explicitely based on C, and differences between them generally have good reasons. They are indeed different languages in the sense that correct code in one can be incorrect in the other, but understanding the differences really makes sense. Comparing C and C++ is not comparing Python and Ruby. Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 15:43
  • 5
    @SergeBallesta Which is exactly why it's a bad question. Is the question asking what the reason is or is the question asking what the specification difference is? The former might be interesting but hard to answer with references (even the people that made the decisions may not remember?), the latter is two different questions?
    – Barry
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 15:48
  • 3
    @SergeBallesta You think subjective questions about people trying to guess why a language designer designed the language the way that they did are useful. Other people don't. You've each cast your votes accordingly.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 15:48
  • @Servy: I do agree with your last comment. Anyway, thank you for the feedback Commented Jan 11, 2018 at 15:53
  • @Servy, yes, my edit did change the flavour of the question. I've added a "for example" which, I hope, fixes it.
    – Bathsheba
    Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 8:03
  • @SergeBallesta "Comparing C and C++ is not comparing Python and Ruby." That's true but still C and C++ are not the same, so one should expect differences from time to time. There doesn't have to be much meaning in them. In this light, the example question may not be so interesting in the end. I didn't learn much from it except that C and C++ indeed aren't the same. The value for me is rather low. Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 8:50
  • @Bathsheba Ups, I just removed the "for example" because I didn't know what the context should be. The questions seemed to revolve only about this one single feature, so no reason to write "for example". I should have read the history and gone back maybe. Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 8:52
  • 1
    Furthermore, the whole purpose of the language-lawyer tag is so that people who are not interested in in-depth workings of standards may chose to skip and ignore such questions. If you aren't interested in that, it is not a reason to down vote. For example, I personally loathe the Visual Basic language: I do not wish to hear about it, I do not wish to discuss it, I believe it should be nuked from orbit. Does that mean that I should run around and down vote every Visual Basic question on SO? Of course not.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 9:17
  • 1
    @Lundin "So when you find an operator that behaves significantly different between the two languages, then there has to be an important reason why." Not sure if there really has to be an important reason why every time. Couldn't it just be coincidence that they are not equal in this regard? There might have been a way to make it equal if the makers of C++ really had wanted to do that. Maybe they just didn't bother enough. Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 10:48
  • 1
    @Lundin I never said all language lawyer questions are bad, or uninteresting. I said this particular one is a bad one. It doesn't do it's research, its unclear, and it's asking multiple separate questions in a single question. None of those (or any of the other problems I or other have described) mean that all language lawyer questions are bad.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 13, 2018 at 16:19
3

If a down voter or flamer is not reading the question, but is really just reacting to the presence of both tags, there is nothing you can do.

But for potential down voters or flamers who do read the question, you can edit the question to clarify that, yes, different languages have different behaviour, but this question is valid because of reason X.

1
  • Reason X, absolutely essential.
    – Passer By
    Commented Jan 13, 2018 at 11:01
3

At the point where I read the question, it was at 1 up-vote and 15 down-votes, which stands out as extreme voting. This was roughly around the time just before Bathsheba's edit took place - an edit that improved the question significantly.

Looking at the original question, it may seem at a glance to have poor research effort. At a glance it may seem that it needlessly uses both tags. And at a glance one might mistake it for yet another "How does i=i++ work?" FAQ. None of this is true but might be the reasons for down votes.

However, I would suspect that the major reason for the down votes is that the question is about artificial code. No sane person would ever write ++++i; in a real-world application. To emphasis that a question isn't about practical use but about the underlying language design, rationale or grammar, such artificial questions should be tagged with . But we cannot expect new users to know this - the correct thing to do is to edit and add this tag, as done by Bathsheba.

If the question is why the prefix ++ operator behaves differently in C and C++, then the post was correctly tagged. I do not believe this explains the down votes, or had any significant impact on votes.

Regarding research effort, it is far from easy to research that on your own. C++ inherits a whole lot of its behavior from C, and when it comes to operators in particular, the languages behave nearly identically, at least up to C++11. Why the prefix ++ operator would behave differently in this case is far, far from obvious. It is not easy to do this research on your own unless you are a veteran C++ language lawyer (the behavior of the ++ operators in C++ is more intricate than it is in C).

So before you down vote, ask yourself this: do you understand the question and do you really think that answering it is trivial? Personally I don't think it's trivial - I would have to go dig up and double-check lvalue behavior in both the C and the C++ standards in order to answer it.

I can only explain the initial flood of down votes as "bandwagon behavior", which is unfortunately quite common on SO. People are eager to do as everyone else did before them. We can see the same happening now with the "meta effect".

Did the original question merit 15 down-votes? Certainly not, there's a whole lot of worse questions out there, with far less down votes. After the edit, I think it is a pretty good question. Yet it has gotten 14 more down votes after that. The down votes even spill over on the 100% correct, accepted answer. This is completely out of proportion.

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  • 1
    I have used ++++itr in real code. But I felt dirty, and changed it to std::advance(itr, 2)
    – sp2danny
    Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 10:44
  • 1
    @sp2danny Next time, write i+=2;.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 10:59
  • 3
    Only works for random access iterators
    – sp2danny
    Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 11:10
  • @sp2danny But it works in C, which is partially what the question is about.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 12, 2018 at 12:04
1

This tries to make best usage of what I have understood from other answers and comments.

As I honestly believed that some questions tagged both C and C++ sometimes received more abrasive comments than what I think they deserved, I was surprised that the referenced question was so heavily downvoted and VTC when I and some other high rep users found that it was about an interesting point of the languages. So I decided to ask this question on meta to give my opinion and request feed back from the community.

What visibly happened is that while some of us found the topic interesting, because about a detail point on the intricacies of C and C++, others found that the question showed no research and that OP did not give feedback which is an equally acceptable opinion. Hence part of the community considered it as an acceptable question and choosed to provide answers, while another part saw it as showing no effort and trying to ask 2 different questions and choosed to downvote and VTC.

My conclusion is that the SO community has processed as it should, users honestly gave their opinion and the conclusion is that it is a below average question, that got above average answers. Probably some knee-jerk reaction could occur (StoryTeller confessed one in its comment), but the final score (currently -3) in a deserved score - BTW -16 was excessively low, but Batsheba's edits do have improve the question

My conclusion is that what should be done here (my initial question) is no more than the normal action on SO question: if one think that a question deserves an answer, then they just have to post one, and eventually vote to re-open if they think that it was wrongly closed. The reason why I have accepted StoryTeller's answer which has anyway the highest score.

Thank to all answerers and commenters for their feedback. I sincerely apologize to all users that I could have offended here, hence this last post.

-7

The question received a lot of negative attention. At the moment it sits at 11 downvotes and closed, despite the fact that it's been edited into a reasonable question (and approved by high rep users in the and tags). Some of the comments are not constructive either. Comments are meant to request clarification or leave constructive criticism. Instead, it seems to have been used as a space to rant about why the commenters don't like the question.

Personally the minimum I would do is flag the question to remove the obsolete/unconstructive comments. I would also like to see it reopened. What about reversing the downvotes? Well, there's nothing you can do about that. Downvotes can be used however one likes and people have no obligation to reverse downvotes even if it's a good question. Hopefully reopening the question and giving the link to the meta discussion higher visibility (by removing the nonconstructive comments) will change that.

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