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Recently, similar to the situation described here, I posted an answer to this question about a question template initiative. As in that situation, my answer was also deleted.

It's an immense mystery why a moderator, much less a group of moderators, would characterize an answer which suggested that the proposed template system have an "off-ramp" (a branch suggesting the user do something other than continuing trying to post a question) as "hostile, biting sarcasm, if not outright trolling".

The only thing about my answer that could be considered sarcastic was the suggestion that in some cases we might want to recommend the would-be poster look for a new line of work. Actually, though, that wasn't sarcasm. Many posters at SO should indeed be looking for a new line of work--that's just an obvious fact.

If there were some special political or corporate factors at work here that make this subject so delicate that the poster cannot endure a bit of straight talk, don't suspend the normal rules of discourse on Meta and herd those with whose opinions you don't like into special out-of-the-way pens, blatantly abusing your authority to delete answers, hiding behind gratuitous theories of "not-an-answer", and putting up passive-aggressive explanations about how my humor is generally much appreciated, but hey in this case, we're just going to nuke your opinion. Instead, choose a different method to get feedback, such as an on-line questionnaire. If you don't want to get any negative opinions in the questionnaire either, that's easy enough; just omit the normal "Any other thoughts?" section from the questionnaire.

For the record, the original post was this:

The best way to improve question quality is to reduce the number of horrible questions that are asked. Your template, or wizard, or whatever it is, should aggressively suggest that the poster NOT post, and instead search, think, debug, rubber-duck, get a new job, or whatever.

Now someone has kindly edited my answer, making it even more innocuous than it was to start with, so it reads like this:

The best way to improve question quality is to reduce the number of questions that are asked at all. Your template should first suggest that the poster search, debug, rubber-duck, and avail themselves of all other avenues for solving their problem.

However, the system won't even allow me vote to undelete it, claiming that that is not possible in the case where a moderator deleted it.

The moderator's comment in deleting the post was:

I generally much appreciate your sense of humor, but I don't think it's especially helpful or constructive in this case. I'm glad that the team is finally trying to do something in this regard, and I'd prefer to keep the noise level to a minimum. If you have something more concrete to propose with respect to encouraging searching, rubber-ducking, etc., then that would be an acceptable answer. "GTFO" is not.

Before this question itself is deleted, I might as well offer my opinion that the notion of a question template barely makes it into the top ten ways to improve question quality. The idea that poor question quality is strongly related to lack of MVCEs, and templates are the answer here, as the original post claims, could not be a clearer demonstration of how far divorced this initiative is from reality. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would be tempted to categorize this entire initiative as a way to simply masquerade as caring about question quality. If there were really a commitment to question quality, there are ample ideas everywhere in Meta, the great majority of which have to do with reducing the number of questions, either before they are asked, or after they are asked with more aggressive closing strategies.

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    I can't comment on why the moderator deleted it, but your first version was more like a comment than an actual answer to the question. It was this version that was deleted, not the edited one.
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 18:15
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    @bluefeet How is it a comment? The question is asking what the template should include, and the answer is stating what they think the template should include. That's an answer, not a comment. You might think it's too brief, incomplete, or simply not something you'd like to see in the template, but those are all reasons to downvote (or comment about), and not reasons to delete an answer. The edit doesn't change any of these aspects of the answer.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 18:17
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    @bluefeet First, being "not an actual answer" is historically applied quite loosely in Meta. There is a reason that the tag in many cases is "discussion". Second, I humbly submit that it is an answer to a slightly broad interpretation of the question.
    – user663031
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 18:20
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    Upvoting not because the answer was a good answer (it wasn't in my opinion), but because it was a valid answer to the question asked, and while it may have included some cynicism and malcontent, it isn't rude or abusive, nor can I see any other valid reason for it to be deleted.
    – user4639281
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 18:49
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    I'm guessing that the first four paragraphs of Cody Gray's answer describe the moderator's reason for deleting your answer. You may not have intended it to be "hostile, biting sarcasm, if not outright trolling" or a "rant", but that's probably how it was interpreted. (I'm not arguing the deletion was correct, just guessing at the reason.) Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 19:51
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    @AndrewMyers What in that answer is hostile, sarcastic, or trolling?
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 21:19
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    Let's not conflate responses, Cody's characterization was aimed at the man-with-no-common-sense. torazaburo's got "I generally much appreciate your sense of humor", a glass that was beyond half-full. The deletion was not inappropriate in my book, it just doesn't add anything to the path the SO employee is trying to pave. Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 21:43
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    @Servy Okay, I'll put my mind-reading hat on again... "Your template, or wizard, or whatever it is" could be taken as a sarcastic way of showing contempt for what the employees were trying to do. Then "suggest that the poster NOT post" and "get a new job, or whatever" could be seen as hostile towards new users in general. IMO, torazaburo's perspective (to wit, there should be guidance discouraging users from outsourcing their debugging to SO) is, or should be, a fine answer. Maybe it would have survived if it had been lengthy, intellectual argument instead of two sentences? Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 21:46
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    @AndrewMyers You say that trying to get people to not post questions that don't belong on the site is hostile to new users, I say that deleting a comment like that is hostile to all of the users who have to read the question that doesn't belong on the site. I don't see the first comment as sarcastic at all, more indicating disinterest or lack of understanding in what it is supposed to be, neither is a reason to delete (or even a bad thing to do). The last comment was already said to be tongue in cheek, and certainly doesn't merit deletion.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 21:51
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    @Hans I just wanted to clarify that it's not that I think the deletion was inappropriate, just that I can't see the reasoning behind it, so the question here is appropriate.
    – user4639281
    Commented Oct 19, 2017 at 23:03
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    failing which I'll be deleting my account is a threat. If you don't give in to my demands, I'll quit this site. You could just have quit the site without making a public spectacle out of it. Sorry to see you go like this, you are, in my opinion, making an elephant out of a molehill.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 22, 2017 at 15:05
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    @torazaburo: don't be flattered, I think you are just throwing a tantrum here. Your sentence does make a threat, the sentence speaks of a hope that you quitting will be seen as a loss to someone. I did let you know that we don't see it as a loss (which no-one ever heeds anyway). This is not semantics, you explicitly stated the only way to avert you quitting is to be given an apology and have the post restored. I called you on your bluff, and you carried it out. That's your choice, and your choice alone.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 22, 2017 at 15:20
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    @Oleg: same message for you: if you are just here to stir the pot some more, take it somewhere else. This particular drama is over, torazaburo decided to escalate this all the way to the nuclear option, and that's a pity but nothing we can do about that choice.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 23, 2017 at 6:44
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    @Oleg I think you're assuming bad faith here where none exists. You can reasonably disagree with the mods and that'll never get you banned.
    – Magisch
    Commented Oct 23, 2017 at 11:29
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    Shit, he went through with it. That sucks.
    – jscs
    Commented Oct 24, 2017 at 23:23

2 Answers 2

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Update:

Following off of torazaburo's comment to Nicol Bolas's answer, I want to make clear that my intention was certainly to evoke the "Be Nice" rule as the reason for the deletion. I apologize if that was not clear from the comment that I left. I ran into the character limit, as always seems to happen for me. Some day I may learn to be concise yet expressive, but that day is not today.

The edit that Josh Caswell made was certainly a substantial improvement over the tone of the original post (as is ever the case with his edits), and addresses many of my concerns.

I've undeleted the answer now, because it no longer violates the "Be Nice" policy on its face, and the discussion here has served to convince me that there is a basis on which it can be reasonably considered an answer to the question. Personally, I'd like to see it fleshed out a bit more to make the relevant suggestion more obvious, but that's obviously not a reason to delete an answer.

Again, I apologize if my original comment was unclear. It was not my intention to cause anywhere near the confusion or hurt feelings that this seems to have evoked, and I remain quite puzzled about why it did. Answers that are non-constructive or irrelevant are regularly removed, and there is never any offense meant by that.

I am only just now looking back on this, because I was very upset by the sour course that this very Meta discussion took, with the rage-quit threats by torazaburo and the insults to my character by others. For the record, I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with moderation actions that I've taken, and it's perfectly valid to ask questions about them. I do, however, have a problem with people who assert things about my character, my willingness and/or interest in moderating fairly, and comments of that nature. I also find it very hard to step back and look at a situation objectively in circumstances where my character is being questioned, and/or someone is attempting to coerce me into taking a particular action by making threats.

For something that started over concerns about the non-constructive tone of a post, the direction that this meta-meta-discussion took is not only ironic, but also deeply troubling.

In case it was not already clear by my initial comment quoted below (the one that started all this), I want to reiterate that I am generally much appreciative of torazaburo's sense of humor, finding it quite similar to my own and therefore obviously of high quality (:-p), but more importantly, of his extremely high-quality contributions over the years to the main site.

This answer was something that I saw as an isolated case, a vent of pent-up frustration, with no underlying harm meant by it. Yet, I also saw it as something that could be badly misinterpreted, which would reflect poorly upon the poster as an individual and upon Stack Overflow as an institution of which he is a member in excellent standing. That is the real reason why I deleted it. Disagree with the action if you must; it was ultimately a gut call, like all moderation decisions, but I felt strongly at the time that I was making the correct one.

It would be a loss to all of us to lose him as a contributor, and I certainly don't wish to be the cause of that. At the same time, I don't like being threatened like this, and refuse to accept the blame for any sort of rage-quit. Any such decision is the sole responsibility of the actor who makes it, and clearly has causes/motivations beyond isolated events.

I think everyone here knows that I am deeply committed to maintaining the quality of this website, both as a technical resource, but also as a civil, respectful place. It is why I nominated myself as a moderator, and I can only assume why so many of you placed your trust in me. Nothing has changed on that front. I believe that what makes Stack Overflow different is not only our focus on quality, but the way we achieve that: by elevating content above individuals. In no way do I want to suppress constructive efforts to improve the quality of the information on this website; in fact, quite the opposite. I support every venture to that end, and contribute to it in every way that I possibly can. By the same token, I feel that it is my responsibility as a moderator to enforce the "Be Nice" policy, not only so that the important messages get through, but also so that we don't degenerate into yet another elitist kingdom where only certain veterans are welcome. We have standards, and that's what makes us great, but standards and inclusivity are not at odds with one another.


I deleted the answer for two reasons:

  1. It did not appear to be an answer to the question that was asked.
  2. To the extent it was vaguely relevant to the question, it was not even remotely constructive.

As has been pointed out in the comments, portions of my answer here are relevant. In particular:

The question itself was an honest attempt to solicit feedback from the community on something that we've been asking the team to implement for a very long time—something that many hope will improve question quality, an issue which is very near and dear to the hearts of veteran users. I, for one, am very pleased to finally see an indication that the team is doing something on this front, after years of promises that they would...someday. It might not be perfect, it certainly won't solve everything, but it's way past time to do something, and this is an idea that has garnered quite a lot of support. Clearly, people think it's a good idea. Now, the team who will be responsible for implementing it has come to the community, seeking further input and refinement. This is exactly what they should be doing.

When community members respond to this with hostile, biting sarcasm, if not outright trolling, it's just totally unwelcome, unhelpful, and toxic. It also discourages the team from bothering to ask us for our input in the future, which is a precedent that I feel pretty strongly about avoiding.

If you have an idea on how to structure the template message, or even a thoughtful reason why we shouldn't do that at all, then you are welcome to post it as an answer. We won't be deleting those. But if you just want to rant, trash-talk, or insult an abstract population of users, then we will be deleting that. The pruning will be more aggressive when it appears in the answer box than when it appears in a comment, but the "Be Nice" policy applies on Meta, too.

There isn't much more I can say by way of explanation than that. Or the comment I left underneath it:

I generally much appreciate your sense of humor, but I don't think it's especially helpful or constructive in this case. I'm glad that the team is finally trying to do something in this regard, and I'd prefer to keep the noise level to a minimum. If you have something more concrete to propose with respect to encouraging searching, rubber-ducking, etc., then that would be an acceptable answer. "GTFO" is not.

No matter how hard I strain, I cannot imagine any way in which that answered "What can we put in a question template to help people ask better questions?", nor can I see any interpretation for the post other than a hostile, sarcastic way of saying that we need to figure out a way to get (certain) users to stop asking questions altogether. This has been proposed before, many times already, so it's not a matter of suppressing discussion. It simply has no obvious relationship to the question that Jon was actually posing, unless the suggestion was actually to add text that proactively discourages people from asking questions, which falls squarely into the "GTFO" territory that I mentioned in the comment.

Contra conspiracy theories, this isn't one. No community manager or team member asked moderators to keep a close eye on that question (short of the obvious signal conveyed by attaching a tag), and certainly didn't request that we delete specific answers. This was merely something that a couple of us agreed upon ourselves, after looking at an influx of answers shortly after the question's posting that were either non-answers, excessively sarcastic, otherwise non-constructive, or all of the above.

The answer wasn't relevant, wasn't constructive, and was crowding out discussion that was relevant and constructive. It didn't deserve to stay, in my opinion. It is more than a little bit ironic that someone who advocates heavy-handed moderation in terms of decreasing the number of questions being asked would have such a problem with heavy-handed moderation in terms of decreasing the number of answers being posted. Why should different rules be applied to you than you seek to have applied to others?

In more familiar terms:

The best way to improve answer quality is to reduce the number of irrelevant and unconstructive answers that are posted. Moderators should aggressively suggest that the poster NOT answer, and instead search, think, Be Nice, get a new job, or whatever.

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    This is simply absurd. It's the Thought Police. The answer was easily within the relevancy criteria applied to Meta answers, and you know it. The answer was completely constructive in a broadened context of how to improve question quality. You should take seriously the fact that at least as many people disagree with you as agree (based on votes on my question here). Why not just come right out and say it: you were under a lot of political pressure to sanitize community opinion here in order to ensure that the momentum that had finally developed around doing something not be lost.
    – user663031
    Commented Oct 22, 2017 at 8:56
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    Also, please do not intentionally confuse the issue by conflating any ideas about moderating/closing questions on SO with those on Meta. The issues are completely different and you know that perfectly well.
    – user663031
    Commented Oct 22, 2017 at 8:56
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    Absolutely no political pressure. I thought I made that abundantly clear in the answer. Every moderation decision I've ever made was mine, and mine alone, with no pressure from anyone. Staff has never tried to pressure me; only my fellow users, which I happily ignore. I would ignore staff, as well. If they want something to happen that I disagree with, they can do it themselves.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 22, 2017 at 9:00
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    "The answer was easily within the relevancy criteria applied to Meta answers, and you know it." No, I don't know it. I did not believe it was even remotely relevant. Nor do I see the distinction you're trying to draw between moderating Stack Overflow and moderating Meta. Continuing to call me a liar is not likely to persuade me to believe that you intended the answer in good faith.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 22, 2017 at 9:00
  • I'm asking @CodyGray to undelete my answer to the original question and apologize for the poor judgment shown in deleting it in the first place, failing which I'll be deleting my account since I have no interest in being associated with a site with such abysmal governance.
    – user663031
    Commented Oct 22, 2017 at 11:47
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    @torazaburo: How about you don't make threats of rage quitting (which no-one ever heeds anyway) and instead try to come up with a more constructive form of communication? I don't think anyone is going to react well with demands like those.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 22, 2017 at 14:54
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    @torazaburo: "Why not just come right out and say it: you were under a lot of political pressure to sanitize community opinion here in order to ensure that the momentum that had finally developed around doing something not be lost." Seriously? Your post had a net score of -3, with eleven downvotes. This was after almost 24 hours on a featured meta post. If there was wide-spread agreement from "the community" for your notion that the Powers That Be wanted to "sanitize", where was that agreement? Like most conspiracy theories, this one doesn't even pass the smell test. Commented Oct 22, 2017 at 16:24
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    This was merely something that a couple of us agreed upon ourselves what justification do you have to invent the rules and not only moderate based on them??? Why should different rules be applied to you than you seek to have applied to others? what rules? based on rules that was an answer to the question and there was no reason to delete it, being not constructive is a reason to downvote, not delete. When moderators don't care about the rules and just moderate based on how they see things it's very difficult to know what to expect and stay here.
    – Oleg
    Commented Oct 23, 2017 at 1:20
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    I don't know I think your theory of the CMs directing mods to delete answers on that question is far fetched, our mods are way too independant to heed something like this, especially since they were elected and don't derive their authority from staff goodwill.
    – Magisch
    Commented Oct 23, 2017 at 9:51
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    @Oleg Being not constructive is absolutely a reason to delete a post, and it always has been, ever since the early days of SO. It is now enshrined in our "Be Nice" policy, which applies on Meta just as much as main. The rules are very clear. I don't understand what argument you're trying to make about moderators inventing rules. We didn't invent anything. The purpose of my statement was to indicate that some discussion took place among us, rather than just one guy "going rogue". If you post high-quality content that respectfully answers the question being asked, then you never have to worry.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 23, 2017 at 10:52
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    From meta.stackexchange.com/a/5222/372935 "Answers that are wrong or that dispense poor advice should be downvoted, not deleted.'' If that post is wrong please show me the correct one. Being constructive and being nice have nothing to do with each other. As long as you're going to arbitrary decide what is and isn't "high-quality content" I'm going to be worried. I'm looking for consistency if you're going to delete non constructive answers you should delete the top voted one about clippy as well.
    – Oleg
    Commented Oct 23, 2017 at 17:07
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    @Oleg Here is the relevant rule; see points #1, #2, and #3. They all apply here. None of them apply to Clippy. To be clear, moderators can, do, and have always deleted posts that violate rules clearly stated in the Help Center. "Be Nice" is only one of many.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 24, 2017 at 12:47
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    Great explanation as always.
    – user4639281
    Commented Oct 24, 2017 at 14:52
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OK, let's try to break this post down. First, we start with the question that the post was responding to:

What sort of guidance do you think would most help new askers provide the information needed to get useful answers?

To this question, your answer was:

The best way to improve question quality is to reduce the number of horrible questions that are asked. Your template, or wizard, or whatever it is, should aggressively suggest that the poster NOT post, and instead search, think, debug, rubber-duck, get a new job, or whatever.

Now, the first thing we need to decide is this: is this an actual answer to the question that was asked?

Yes.

Silly, stupid, unproductive, unhelpful, and toxic though this answer clearly is, this is in fact an answer to that question. The question asks for suggestions as to what new posters ought to be encouraged to do, and this answer provides guidance.

Useless, ridiculous, and pointless guidance in context, but guidance nevertheless.

So it does endeavor to answer the question.

Of course, that's not the only issue at play here:

The only thing about my answer that could be considered sarcastic was the suggestion that in some cases we might want to recommend the would-be poster look for a new line of work. Actually, though, that wasn't sarcasm. Many posters at SO should indeed be looking for a new line of work--that's just an obvious fact.

It's also a clear violation of our "Be nice" policy. Whether you meant it as sarcasm or a genuine statement is irrelevant; it's very difficult to interpret this statement as anything less than an attack on a person.

As such, I maintain that removing the post on those grounds is reasonable. While it was edited into a less aggressive form, the person doing that editing was not you. And while you certainly haven't rolled it back, you clearly aren't apologizing for your behavior either. After all, you just defended it, calling it an "obvious fact", "straight talk", and claiming that "politics" would be a reason for people disagreeing with you rather than you being decidedly impolite.

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    An interesting take on the situation, thanks, the only issue is that "Be nice" was not the reason cited for deleting the post. So I guess you agree with the decision to delete, but not for the reason given? Hmm. Anyway, let me take this opportunity to apologize profusely for even suggesting that anyone might be in the wrong line of work, or for any emotional harm done to them by suggesting that, and hereby to retract that unfortunate formulation, and to thank the person who edited the post to remove that, and state that I completely agree and support his decision to do so.
    – user663031
    Commented Oct 23, 2017 at 15:50

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