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With Documentation going into public beta earlier today, folks have raised a number of concerns over the reputation thresholds. I'd like to take a moment to address those in one place.

We are adjusting the thresholds

First and foremost - we are adjusting the rep rewards as we speak. This is a beta. Stack Overflow Q&A had reputation rewards adjusted over the years (question upvotes got reduced from 10 to 5, question downvotes stopped costing reputation, etc). As much as I'd love to think that we'd get this right on day 1, that's ... unlikely. :)

We're deploying changes now that reduce reputation awarded for edits from 10 to 5. We are also raising the thresholds for what a "substantive edit" is (the rep recalc is now live from these changes).

Reputation cap still exists

We had a bug on release that didn't take Documentation rep into account when determining the daily rep cap. It's been fixed, and we're about to recalc the reputation for folks who were affected. The changes above will go into effect at the same time.

Reputation rewards are here to stay

Contributions to Documentation are as important and require as much, if not more, effort as contributions to Q&A. Documentation is also a viable way to contribute for someone who may not (yet) be comfortable asking or answering questions.

Why not separate reputation from Q&A?

Part of the reason here is technical - introducing a new reputation type is quite a lot of work. However, the more important reason here is that there is only one Stack Overflow. There is no "Q&A Stack Overflow" and "Documentation Stack Overflow". The goal here is to have both types of content combined and contributing to the same goal: collectively increasing the sum total of good programming knowledge in the world. See here for a more elaborate answer.

What about fraud?

We're monitoring all the things. Just like Q&A has vote fraud detection tools, so will Docs once we have some data and see what makes sense.

Are these new values set in stone now?

Hell naw. This is a beta. I cannot emphasize that enough. I must sound like a broken record by now, but we are monitoring usage and will tweak and adjust things as needed. Keep your feedback coming! We're listening.

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  • 8
    I understand this, but what happened to all my reputation from docs-beta private beta? Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:40
  • 3
    @AdamLear I totally understand Q&A reputation being lost (that was clarified during beta), but I'm pretty sure I earned more than 700 reputation including today and docs-beta. Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:42
  • 6
    The edit rep should be proportional with the size of the edit. A complete overhaul of the example should earn more than a spelling fix.
    – Daniel M.
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:47
  • 76
    There is no "Q&A Stack Overflow" and "Documentation Stack Overflow". Yes, there is. And the latter is currently replicating a lot of effort already done in the former. Documentation is competing with Q&A instead of being an extension to it.
    – Gordon
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:50
  • 2
    @AdamLear Does the reputation from docs count towards the epic/legendary badges? I could be mistaken but even though I got 202 rep today the count for the badges didn't increase.
    – MSeifert
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 21:04
  • 2
    @MSeifert Right now only Q&A post votes are counted for those badges. Not sure if we're gonna adjust that yet or not.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 21:11
  • 21
    None of the Q&A rep from the private beta is being preserved. I AM FILING SUIT TOMORROW MORNING
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 22:13
  • 3
    Are there rep losses if your examples are downvoted, or is there only positive rep gain from Documentation? Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 22:19
  • 72
    "Documentation is also a viable way to contribute for someone who may not (yet) be comfortable asking or answering questions." This seems utterly nonsensical. Why, exactly, would we want someone contributing documentation if they are unable to coherently or accurately answer a question? (Not to mention ask, which is even easier, since you by definition do not know the answer!)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 7:30
  • 80
    “Contributions to Documentation are as important and require as much, if not more, effort as contributions to Q&A.” – As someone who has spent a lot of time and effort on Q&A, trying to make this site a great resource, I’m honestly demotivated by this statement seeing how docs is currently developing and how the early state is being used by people who are literally farming rep from the system.
    – poke
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 8:27
  • 51
    "Reputation rewards are here to stay" - That's a shame. I got 50 rep in 1 day from converting a {'a': 1, 'b': 2}.items() to initial_dict.items(). It should be reduced, 10-fold at least. "for someone who may not (yet) be comfortable asking or answering questions" - Are they shy or not qualified to ask/answer a good question/answer? A person not able to create good Q&A is even less able to create good documentation. Both the quotes show that you placed user happiness over quality and that's one hell of a terrible idea.
    – user
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 13:56
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    @AdamLear My contribution seems tiny, therefor i would expect the "reward" to be as tiny. Generally, i feel like there are many things wrong with the current docs implementation. Another issue that comes to mind is that since the original doc-post can be created by a non expert, this would require lots of effort from others until it reaches a good/acceptable level. I strongly believe you need to enforce more strict requirements, and much smaller rewards.
    – user
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 16:19
  • 14
    I have enjoyed my time on SO and have learned a lot from people who are simply smarter than me in my own area or peers in similar areas. Indeed, I consider SO as integral to my education in Python - but documentation is broken. It changes the recommendations I give to peers and students from "go check out SO" to..well..something else. As JS or C++ (great in their own area) begin to try and add to my bread and butter I feel I must avoid SO -to avoid non-standard documentation. I hope this will change, but the rep gain that DOCs causes lessens part of my motivation to contribute and recommend SO Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 5:52
  • 13
    I would strongly push for separating reps for documentation from rep for Q&A. It really breaks the whole system for me. When I look at somebody's rep, I want to equate a high-rep with some kind of skills (that's why/how some people actually use it as a recruiting tool). Already I had to filter out people with rep. gained from asking a bunch of questions or a few popular questions, but that was pretty easy in the current UI. But now, giving people rep. points for docs dissolves even further the use of rep. to filter experts. it becomes just points without a clear meaning associated to it. Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 14:20
  • 7
    I'd like to build on existing, highly valid concerns. The core idea of Documentation might be nice, but your chosen implementation is abysmal and risks killing the reputation of SO as (A) a Q&A knowledgebase, since you're now trying to dilute that goal by adding an orthogonal form of KB & (B) a reliable knowledgebase, rather than one where people who, whether they know it or not, aren't qualified to answer questions are encouraged to contribute to Documentation - and/or rewarded with inflated rep for trivial edits, reaping benefits for work they didn't do. Is this really what you want? Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 10:41

9 Answers 9

130

Can we also ask that you look into upping the requirements for Tag Commits and Reviews?

  • As it stands, you need reputation of 150 and a score of 1 in a tag on Q&A to commit to a new tag in Documentation. That seems kind of low.

  • In order to approve a suggested edit or revision to a Tag topic, you only need 100 reputation. Considering it takes fewer people to approve an edit on Documentation than it does to approve a suggested edit on Q&A, and the point of Documentation is to be a source of objective and correct knowledge on languages and their syntax, structure, and quirks, shouldn't the reputation be at least as high to approve a change?

I'd love to see a reputation requirement of closer to 500 or 1000 in order to approve changes in a topic. Or better yet, associate your ability to approve/deny changes to a tag's topic with your score in that tag on Q&A. Something like "You must have a bronze badge in and a reputation of at least 500 to approve changes"...

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    1000 seems a tad high for approving documentation changes... Agreed with your final statement, however.
    – user6412179
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:37
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    @Justin Right, just example rep levels, but you need 3,000 reputation to approve suggested edits to the Q&A site. Comparatively, 1,000 rep is fairly low, and earnable purely from suggesting edits on Q&A and never posting a question or answer.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:41
  • 74
    @Justin, I disagree. If a user is approving Documentation changes, it needs to be accurate. Right now, I see blind approvals on topics I've been monitoring that are little more than a copy/pasted block of code. That's not documentation. That's someone gunning for reputation. Documentation needs to explain why the code solves a problem or it only helps people having that exact problem. It's giving someone a fish, not teaching them to fish. Documentation should be teaching someone to fish.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:41
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    A 1000 reputation requirement would kill the ability of most people to contribute to low volume tags.
    – enderland
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:42
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    @Andy This. I've not been able to really commit to a topic today in CSS because I don't have time to write up a decent example or section, on top of fighting through all the one-liner suggestions to topics by 10-rep users.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:42
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    @TylerH Is that the fault of the lack of a rep requirement or is that because it's the very first day of public beta? 6-8 weeks down the line, will documentation still be flooded with endless amounts of "rep mining" suggestions waiting to be approved?
    – user6412179
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:44
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    Yep, we're monitoring all the thresholds. Right now, due to the overall influx of people, I hesitate to up the review thresholds. Having proposed changes languish in review due to a lack of reviewers isn't a great alternative.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:44
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    These limits are not definitive. Right now we need information, and blocking a ton of users out of being able to contribute effectively to build up our knowledge base is only going to clog up the system and lead to a poor experience. These reputation thresholds are in line with how site betas normally operate, where almost all thresholds are reduced to lower levels because we're still gathering the initial base, before the thresholds bump up to normal levels.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:45
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    @Justin, in 6-8 weeks we will be cleaning up the "rep mining" that has occurred.
    – Andy Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:47
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    We need an iron badge for tags then because the bronze one is pretty hard to get IMHO.
    – Knu
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 21:55
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    “blocking a ton of users out of being able to contribute effectively to build up our knowledge base is only going to […] lead to a poor experience” – So flooding the site with users who didn’t use Q/A to prove that they are actually experienced in a topic to build a knowledge base is completely intentional? From what I am seeing, almost every “veteran user” who has been trying to make this site great is annoyed at the poor experienced and low quality of content that is being produced on docs. You cannot really compare this to a normal site launch where a new community is forming.
    – poke
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 8:14
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    I'd go so far as to describe this as infuriating. We've got users with 50-100 rep creating topics that should not be created, and we're having to spend our time trying to undo their work, as opposed to doing anything actually productive.
    – Ffisegydd
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 8:16
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    I fully support the bronze badge requirement. I'd like to point out that the requirement for a bronze badge is "You must have a total score of 100 in at...." it means that a user with a bronze badge will have at least 1000 rep (unless they gave it away with bounties), but this doesn't diminish from their knowledge of the tag. Bottom line: bronze badge requirement alone - yay! Bronze badge + repcap - nay!
    – Dev-iL
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 9:52
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    I'd love to see a reputation requirement of closer to 1000 in order to approve changes in a topic -- agree with this Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 10:09
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    I also like the idea of needing a language tag badge to do significant stuff for that language, but it would not be practical for minor topics that don't fall under the umbrella of a language.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 16:39
86

I see that there are people posting examples in the Python tag being blatantly plagiarized from different sources (books and blogs) and posted without proper attribution. Even with proper attribution I am not sure whether this is an effort that should be highly rewarded. Now that only so many review approvals are required, some of them are there to stay.

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    And there are topics with almost the same content and objectives. And there are versions too that can or should be written in one version for they are almost alike and connected. The edit button is becoming useless for many users are posting their own version/document even though the topic is already existed.
    – rhavendc
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 8:14
  • 1
    don't accept the propoised changes or flag the topics, there is a reason that's explicilty called "copying/plagiarism" Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 13:43
  • 2
    Copied content is explicitly disallowed and there's even a flag reason for it. Definitely flag any copied content you see, attributed or otherwise.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 14:33
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    The problem here isn't the rewards in themselves, it's plagiarism. Plagiarized content is not allowed. As others said, flag it when you see it.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 15:22
  • 9
    I agree, I did, but now instead of writing documentation, I am supposed to be hunting plagiarism :D Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 15:25
  • @AnttiHaapala Yeah, it's a mess since it's new and there's thousands of users chomping at the bit to contribute. As time goes on, the noise will be reduced and it'll be easier to handle.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 18:59
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    I have spent the last three days Googleing phrases looking for plagiarism ("he practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own")- I do this for pay with students but with SO the fact that one needs no level of contribution within Q&A before adding to SOD is just, well, SOD OFF. I would definitely support a limit on contributions based on reputation in parent tag - even if it cut me off. SO is worth fighting for and DOCs is killing a lot of users' motivation. To point out - editing a bad DOC is easy rep. However, some of us care more about SO than rep - I hope. Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 6:09
  • 1
    I ran into this earlier today in the Android section. On the surface it looked like a good help topic, but a little investigation revealed it was a word for word copy from a popular tutorial site. It was flagged and removed, but I have to wonder how much of this kind of thing is flying under the radar.
    – trooper
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 5:38
  • 2
    The tour and other Documentation help files should be updated ASAP to encourage references and highlight that copying/plagiarism is not acceptable. See my suggestion Stack Overflow Documentation help should encourage usage of references Commented Jul 27, 2016 at 14:54
43

We need to take into account following.

  • When someone is asking on Q&A it is not required to ask users to have some reputation in order to be able to ask - because most of these people are beginners and they are learning. So they may ask "easy" questions.

  • On documentation however, people contributing there are expected to have some knowledge in some area. Clearly you need to know something in order to be able to teach others about this. Hence, it makes some sense to put some threshold (e.g. based on reputation) on who can create new topics/approve edits etc. in documentation. Current thresholds are IMO low.

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    I cannot agree. Peer review should pretty much eliminate the need for reputation requirements in the first place. I hope that we can eventually move to a point where anonymous submissions can be accepted, much like suggested edits on the main site.
    – badp
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 13:44
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    @badp There's at least a rough correlation between "Q&A Rep" and "knowledge/skill in programming" as well as "knowledge of the Stack Overflow system and QA rigors". You don't have to be an expert in Stack Overflow Docs to contribute, but you should be at least somewhat familiar with our system and rigors, and definitely should at least be proficient in whatever tag language you're committing to.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 14:35
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    @TylerH right, so you might want the peer reviewers to have enough reputation, just like we do on the main site where only 3kers can approve edits. The actual submission and improvement of content however is the part that is actually hard and valuable, the pear you should optimize for, and it should be as accessible as possible.
    – badp
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 14:46
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    @badp You're right the submission of content is hard and valuable, but you're wrong that that means we should make it easy for anyone to do. Precisely because it is hard, and because this is documentation of a language, it should be done by people who know what they're doing. As others on this topic have already pointed out, we're getting tag requests and topic submissions from people with 20, 30, 40 rep that are just horrendous. And it's harder to delete/block stuff thanks to the confines of the system.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 14:49
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    @badp This isn't an attempt to keep Doc contributions confined to some elite group of users, it's just a plea to adjust the threshold for contributions to a more reasonable level. You don't want to hire high school drop outs to work in your office... sure they can probably do some of the work but 9 times out of 10 a college graduate is going to do it better and in a more professional manner, and they're gonna know all the ins and outs of doing it, too, rather than just the basics.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 14:52
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    @TylerH "I don't wanna be elitist, but I'm a 10× developer." If someone submits crap, it's gone with one click. If someone submits "just the basics" then you can improve it, or you can leave a comment if it ain't no one got time for that. If you don't have the time to drop a line, you can just skip it. I'm sorry, the review work is sand, not pearl.
    – badp
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 14:58
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    @badp Actually it's not gone with one click. It takes 2 people to reject a change, and potentially more depending on what you're trying to get rid of. This is especially problematic because it only takes one person to approve a change. I'm not worried about "just the basics" submissions, I'm worried about, as I have explicitly mentioned above, crap submissions, copied content, superfluous topics, and tags that don't need to be suggested. If you don't think review work is important, and can't at least read what's been said, kindly don't butt in :-)
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 15:01
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    @TylerH: those were my points too :) Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 15:10
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    In Q&A you can't have pearls without sand, or answers without questions. Reviewing is important. It shouldn't be the top priority, however. You think I am not qualified to help others merely because I don't have the time to hunt for questions to answer? I think that documentation is knowledge sharing that scales. I shouldn't have to work in the salt miles and jump through hoops to share knowledge; it goes against everything that has made Stack Exchange successful in the first place.
    – badp
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 15:12
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    @badp: "Reviewing is important. It shouldn't be the top priority, however." No, it should be. For Docs.SO, reviewing is the only way that things get done. And the more crap that gets posted to Docs.SO, the better the chance that idiots will accept that crap while all the knowledgeable people are out of reviews for the day, thus forcing someone to go and delete the crap. Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 15:20
  • 1
    @Nicol just so long as you realise that if crap does make it through the peer review process, that's a problem with the peer review process, and you won't solve it by raising the bar of submission.
    – badp
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 15:23
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    @badp: "you won't solve it by raising the bar of submission." Nonsense. Less crap entering the system means less time wasted reviewing crap. Wasting the time of experts is not a good thing. Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 15:25
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    @Nicol you are confusing experts users — those writing — with trusted users — those doing the peer review. You need some expertise to do fact checking, but you need more to actually write and improve the documentation in the first place. The system needs to trust you to know enough about the subject matter to fact check everything, but your contribution as a reviewer is merely fact checking.
    – badp
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 15:28
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    @badp: "you are confusing experts users — those writing" Docs.SO proves that most of "those writing" are not "expert users" by any reasonable definition of that term. "You need some expertise to do fact checking, but you need more to actually write the documentation in the first place." No. You can only effectively review something that you are smart enough to know about. We don't need the ignorant masses reviewing things. Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 15:31
  • 1
    I'm not talking about the review process. Make that as restrictive as needed. By all means, punish abuse. My argument is about the actual contribution process.
    – badp
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 15:35
33

I don't see how issues with cheap reputation can be fixed by just lowering rep awards or increasing substantial edit thresholds. Eventually, after some time, active users of Documentation will still cap every day.

I got to daily reputation cap third day in row. I participated in private beta a bit, edited several topics yesterday. Today I did literally nothing. But even after all adjustments, I got to rep cap after about 14 hours. And today is weekend! While I enjoy earning rep, it seems ridiculously easy and broken.

Not that reputation wasn't broken before - it's much easier to earn it by answering simple questions than by spending time on complex ones which rarely receive attention.

But Documentation makes it much worse. Capping every day just from passive rep is now possible for mere mortals. Previously it was a luxury available only to top users. Not only this devalues reputation numbers in user profiles, but reputation stops being the source of motivation for answering questions.

I think daily rep cap for Q&A and Documentation should be separate at least, if completely separate reputation is not to be discussed.

5
  • "Eventually, after some time, active users of Documentation will still cap every day." You mean like active users of Q/A?
    – Magisch
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 12:51
  • 8
    @Magisch Maybe I'm an inactive user of Q&A, but being in top 2% overall after 6 years on SO, I get 6 passive rep per day on average. Documentation gives me rep cap every single day since public beta, without cap it'd be around 350 passive rep per day and it's only accelarating. I edited/created examples about 20 times, according to my profile — does that qualify as being very active on Documentation?
    – Athari
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 13:04
  • 1
    For now, yes. Remember, we're still in the intitial "gold rush" phase of documentation
    – Magisch
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 13:11
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    Are these possible? A user adds a poor or marginally useful example. The example gets approved by review. No one upvotes because of its marginal quality. Another user basically rewrites it to make it actually useful. It now gets upvotes, giving the original poster a stream of rep (even though they don't really understand the topic). Or worse, a user does an edit that makes an example technically less correct, but also fixes some spelling errors. It gets approved by a person, later fixed by an expert, but poster that made example less correct reaps rep stream. This dilutes the meaning of rep. Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 11:45
  • 3
    @hatchet Documentation rep is prone to much easier and blatant abuse than that. User A edits a pupular topic by adding lorem ipsum, user B (alt, friend) approves, user B removes lorem ipsum, user A approves. On the surface, nothing changed, but both get infinite rep forever. And the problem is, I don't see an easy automatic fix to this.
    – Athari
    Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 14:47
30

I would strongly push for separating reps for documentation from rep for Q&A. It really breaks the whole system for me. When I look at somebody's rep, I want to equate a high-rep with some kind of skills (that's why/how some people actually use it as a recruiting tool, and that is why it fits well with the job section of the site).

Already in the current system, I had to filter out people with rep. gained from asking a bunch of questions or a few popular questions, but that was pretty easy in the current UI.

But now, giving people rep. points for docs dissolves even further the use of rep. to quickly single out experts. It becomes just points without a clear meaning associated to it. Why not also conflating points from meta into points from Q&A? Why not conflating also all points from stack exchange into one Q&A SO score? You want to distinguish accurately people's skills, not just getting questions and answers. And people also want to showcase their skills, not just answering questions. And they want those skills to be accurately categorized, which is why you have tag rewards in place.

So it is not the score which is the motivation, it is the meaning of the score. So when you dilute the meaning of the score (the thing that is the most prominently advertised on the page), you upset all those people who strove to obtain a high score as a reflection of their knowledge. That is not to be taken lightly, as these are the people who provides a signification portion of the (quality) answers that makes this site successful. You will see that it is also those who will provide the (quality) documentation that you are seeking. So don't piss them off. You don't want low quality answers, you don't want low quality docs.

If by conflating the reps for unrelated things, you are conflating the experts and the noobs at the same level (score), you will loose the experts. Personally I was taken aback by those changes, and I am not sure I am going to spend more time going forward answering questions.

I was actually very excited by the documentation, and I subscribed to the beta happily. I have a bunch of documentation that I can contribute from my experience struggling through things. But honestly I'll keep it for myself until this system improves. As much as I was eager to contribute, it just does not make sense right now.

9
  • 1
    I don't like combing docs rep with SO rep, but I find your reasoning to be awful. "you upset all those people who strove to obtain a high score as a reflection of their knowledge." Providing documentation very much is a reflection of their knowledge. So by your own reasoning, Docs.SO rep should be mixed with SO rep if the intent is to reflect your knowledge. Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 15:52
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    You don't understand my reasoning. High score -> high knowledge/skills/whatever is what we want. The problem here is a bunch of people with low knowledge of a subject matter can get a high score. That high score when mixed up with the general score prevents accurately identifying the level of knowledge of each. And the one penalized are the experts i.e. the very people that makes this website a reference for seeking answers. So experts still can get a high score, but noobs also can. with limited skills, and even a higher score at that matter. Which dilutes the meaning of a score. Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 15:58
  • 3
    "High score -> high knowledge/skills/whatever is what we want." But this has never been true. Knowledge and skill only corresponds weakly with reputation. People should not "strive to obtain a high score as a reflection of their knowledge." Answering questions ought to be its own reward; reputation is simply gratitude for your contributions. Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 13:02
  • 1
    @user3743222 Reputation has at best a weak correlation with score. I could go about answering tosh all day and still get my SO rep cap every day. Some people do this. They know comparably almost nothing.
    – Magisch
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 13:12
  • 3
    I do not believe the correlation is weak. As I mentioned in my answer, it is weakened by several factors, including the fact than questions are also rewarded, number of years since subscription, popular tags etc. but it still is not weak in the current form. Adding to that the fact that it is possible to filter out the people who got score by asking questions, it works as an approximate tool to filter out experts of a subject domain. It works better than having nothing, for sure. And again, that is a reason why it makes sense to have a job section appended and linked to the Q&A. Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 21:14
  • 1
    Lastly, I do not believe that answering questions should be its own reward. In that case, there is no need for a score. The same than when you participate in reviewing questions, and filtering out the pearls from the sand, you get no points for that. And yet we do have these points. It has a meaning, it introduces a ranking by virtue of comparison. This ranking has a meaning too, whatever it ends up being. A score in and of itself has no meaning. The reward comes from the gratification from the comparison between the scores. Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 21:16
  • @user3743222: There currently seems to be a significant imbalance between rep from answers vs. docs. But I don' see why "separate rep" is the solution - unless you assume it takes skill to provide good answers, but any noob can write good documentation. That assumption seems to be all over your post, and I don't know where it comes form. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    – peterchen
    Commented Jul 28, 2016 at 8:26
  • Documentation is a different skill. You can be good at documenting and still not being an expert of a subject matter. That makes you an expert at documenting. Combinations are possible (experts good at documenting, etc.) but in the end it is a different skill and it should be in a different category. Also, SO Docs is not about documentation, it is about how-to, cookbook-like examples. The system is gamable (does not even have to be your examples you are pasting). Then it is community-edited, which means you are rewarded for the work of others and independently of the value of your contribution Commented Jul 28, 2016 at 14:24
  • 1
    So there are conceptuals reasons for separating both reps, but then also very practical ones. In programming, we have this thing which is do one thing well. It makes it easy to create and manipulate meaning. Commented Jul 28, 2016 at 14:26
17

Maybe it would be good to introduce a second threshold, only for documentation gains. It could also be lower, like 100 or 150.

I contributed to the "Hello World" C#-example back in the private beta, and gained nearly 200 rep for that yesterday - I' not complaining, but this is warping the rep gain in general.

Reaching 200 rep just with QA isn't that easy, especially for multiple days in succession. With Documentation upvotes and incoming citations gaining high rep each day is quite easy and "discriminates" against users who only participate in QA.

The second threshold could also motivate to participate in Documentation, since you can gain additional rep even if you reached the daily cap with QA.

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    We expect this to even out greatly over time as Documentation settles into whatever usage pattern it's going to have. Right now Documentation rep is flowing (though we've reduced some of it yesterday). Over time it'll probably be not much different from Q&A. We'll see, though.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 15:26
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Maybe this is specific to the c++ tag, but one major problem I have with the current state is that people are getting awarded great amounts of reputation without actually contributing anything meaningful to SO: Namely for replicating content that can already easily be found in the Q&A part. Often the answers in the Q&A part are even of higher quality.

What I mean by "easily be found" is that many (if not most) people come to SO via google anyway and as far as those very basic topics are concerned that are currently put into the Doc, there already exist a lot of well written, highly up-voted answers that google will send you to. So IF someone takes the time to search for information at all, then finding it is NOT the problem and consequently, duplicating the same information - even in a slightly different form / context doesn't gain much.

If - as you say - there is supposed to be only one SO, then it shouldn't be necessary nor encouraged to duplicate content from one part to the other. There should rather be an easy way to link to those existing answers or - to allow Doc specific modification - copy them while retaining the original ownership (like a fork).
If however, Doc is supposed to be a separate part for which duplication is acceptable or even desired, then it should also have its separate (duplicated) reputation system.

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I think it could be useful to limit the max rep that someone can receive from documentation to some function of the rep that they have from questions, e.g.:

Max rep from documentation = A + B*(total rep from questions).
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  • Could you elaborate a bit on the "why"? Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 12:34
  • @PaŭloEbermann A lot of folks have raised concerns about reputation inflation coming from this. This would help contain it. It's based on the premise that answering questions is still a more accurate gauge of knowledge in the language. It's just a thought though, I'm not tremendously attached to it. Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 14:23
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I'm mostly active on the julia-lang tag on SO, so I don't know how universal my experience there is. But, on that tag, there's a stable core of a few dozen users who regularly monitor questions. Lots of non-core people come in and ask questions. But, I'm at least pretty certain that most of the voting on both questions and answers comes from people who are involved enough to check with some regularity the "Recently Active" question list for this tag. These people likewise tend to be pretty experienced and knowledgable. Most of the reputation that gets awarded on that tag isn't for out-of-the-park questions or answers that get thousands of views and hundreds of votes, but for solid questions and answers that get 4-10 votes, mostly from experienced users.

For documentation, my thought would be to take some inspiration from this. In particular, to try to base the system on getting endorsements from experienced users rather than clicks from less experienced ones who just happen onto the site via a google search. In particular then:

  1. Pretty high reputation minimum in order to upvote anything on documentation (e.g. 500).
  2. Each addition / edit voted on separately.
  3. Some kind of awards, badges, maybe reputation, etc. to encourage experienced users to pay attention to and vote on documentation.

Additionally, there could be non-binding guidance for upvotes, something along the lines of "this adds significant value above existing resources."

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  • This misses the point and kinda seems to add insult to injury by suggesting that the ability to mark something as helpful should be an elitist privilege... are low-rep users incapable of judging when something is useful to them? The flaw is not how upvoting is done: it's that upvoting gives too much reputation and in situations where it's not deserved/proportional. The idea of solving that by centralising voting power isn't a solution: it's creating a second problem. Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 10:47
  • ...and if the counterargument is 'Well, newbs might not know enough to judge whether something is correct, so even if they consider it helpful, they might be wrong'... (A) there isn't a 1:1 correlation between being a newb-to-SO and a newb-to-the-topic, so the former (low-rep users) shouldn't be limited because they might also be the latter (highly experienced in the subject); (B) they can always adjust their vote later, (C) there's a point where you just have to let people vote, even if wrong (hooray, democracy!); and anyway (D) you should propose the same elitist rules for normal Q&A, surely Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 14:21
  • @underscore_d valid points. I'm just throwing out thoughts here. Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 14:24
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    @underscore_d Any system is going to have flaws, any rule will have cases (like some you point out) where it doesn't fit as well as we might like. It's just a challenge to find a way to get the best, albeit still imperfect, representation of what we'd want. Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 14:51

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